Targeteer Fighter, any use for the class feats?

[bean illus]

Arrow Swarm: By taking a -5 penalty to all attack rolls for a round, the targetteer may make two additional ... his highest attack bonus. ... ... making a full attack ... .

This might have some potential, but I'm not sure. 19-20 BAB might pull it off.
A -5 is hard to eat, but two additional shots is hard to beat.

Sniper: ... full attack option, ... . For each attack ... sacrificed, the threat range of the weapon increases by 1. ... ... . A sacrificed attack only enhances the next attack. However, a targetteer can sacrifice multiple attacks to further increase the threat range. A targetteer cannot sacrifice all attacks from a full attack action.

This one really has me perplexed. It looks useless.
Unless, are they saying the next arrow? Or the next attack round? Because, why would you sacrifice ALL your attacks, unless it boosts next round?

In the first case, you sacrifice your highest BAB for a +1 threat on your lower BAB.
In the second, you sacrifice your lowest/last arrows for increased threat on your highest BAB. ?

Vital Aim: The targetteer may add his Dexterity modifier to his damage rolls ... instead of his Strength bonus. ... . The targetteer cannot use his Dexterity modifier to replace his Strength modifier when attacking creatures immune to critical hits.

To synergize dex and str on archers is tough, and this doesn't fix it. But if you bypass enough crit immunities it might work. ? You'd probably still need to support str, so it's a potential bonus to some things.

Any of those stand out? Perhaps synergy between arrow swarm and sniper? Or just no.

[animewatcha]

On the attack roll accuracy, as you go up in levels, the penalty is likely to be offset by bonuses like Dex, Bracers of archery, enhancement bonus, etc.

For the increase in crit. You could indeed lose your 'last attack that might have missed anyway' to improve the base crit range of your attacks that are more likely to hit. Keep in mind that this crit range increase is before improved critical takes effect. So 19-20 bow ( improved crit 17-20 ) would become a 18-20 ( 15-20 improved crit ) if you gave up one attack. There may be additional sources of attacks like haste. Another interesting aspect of it. In accordance to interesting wording of the targeteer, you can sacrifice natural weapon attacks ( they would normally be done in a full attack as secondary weapons ) to up your threat range for free. There is a bow enchantment in one of the faerun book ( same book as spell of arrowsplit a ranger spell ) that doubles your range attacks.
If you multiclass, monk's unarmed strike - natural weapon. Ranger/archivist - spells to fuel arrowsplit.

A targeteer fighter with enough resources could do a crit range of 1-20 ( with improved crit ).

[Psyren]

Are you talking about the alternate Fighter from Dragon Magazine? My gut reaction to the abilities:

Arrow Swarm: A -5 penalty to all your attacks is a huge drawback, one I'm not sure two extra attacks offsets DPR-wise. Keep in mind this likely means that only your highest iteratives will hit, and probably not even then. Moreover it's unclear if this stacks with Rapid Shot since it requires it; if it does, the penalties stack too (because penalties always stack), and now you're getting 3 extra attacks but ALL of them now take -7(!). Meanwhile if it doesn't, you're only getting one extra attack over regular Rapid Shot at a much steeper penalty to all your shots, at which point I'd probably just stick with that.

Sniper: This one is better because you can usually dump the lowest iteratives (that would have probably missed anyway) to power up your remaining shots. It also appears to stack with Improved Critical and the like, judging by the wording, so you could go for a pretty nasty crit build since bows tend to have a high multiplier. And yes, my reading is that Arrow Swarm and Sniper can be used together (one requires you to use a full-attack action, while the other triggers when you use a full-attack action.)

Vital Aim: While Dex to damage sounds great on paper, the trouble here is that it only applies to ranged weapons that gave you Str to damage in the first place, so you can replace it. This means composite bows, slings and thrown weapons. Composite bows have the twin drawbacks of still having a Str requirement to use, and tend to have low caps, so all you've really done at that point is make yourself MAD for a couple extra points of damage. Slings fare slightly better but are hard to use in 3.5; the best use I can think of for this is a TWF thrower build.

Ultimately though, none of these solve the 3.5 Fighter's main problem, i.e. being just a dip class for a superior build that uses something else, rather than being a decent class in its own right. I could definitely see a rogue with throwing knives dipping a level of Targetteer Fighter, getting Dex and sneak attack to its daggers for example, but none of these abilities makes staying in Fighter any longer than necessary worthwhile.

(Also, why on earth would they not give an archer archetype Spot? )

[ExLibrisMortis]

Are you talking about the alternate Fighter from Dragon Magazine? My gut reaction to the abilities:

Arrow Swarm: A -5 penalty to all your attacks is a huge drawback, one I'm not sure two extra attacks offsets DPR-wise. Keep in mind this likely means that only your highest iteratives will hit, and probably not even then. Moreover it's unclear if this stacks with Rapid Shot since it requires it; if it does, the penalties stack too (because penalties always stack), and now you're getting 3 extra attacks but ALL of them now take -7(!). Meanwhile if it doesn't, you're only getting one extra attack over regular Rapid Shot at a much steeper penalty to all your shots, at which point I'd probably just stick with that.

Apart from just having way too much to-hit, Woodland Archer also makes Arrow Swarm worth using. If you miss an attack because of Arrow Swarm, you'll get +4 to hit for your subsequent attacks, effectively getting an extra attack in return for -1 to-hit. If you miss two attacks because of AS, WA will grant you +8 to hit against the same target, and you come out ahead for your other shots. It's even crazier with a splitting bow, naturally, where you potentially get a net +11 to-hit if you miss all four bonus attacks from your splitting Arrow Swarm.

Woodland Archer is a fighter feat, but of course Dragon Magazine fighters are stuck with their stupid fixed bonus feat lists... I think most DMs will let you take an archery feat on a Targetteer, though.

[Eldariel]

This might have some potential, but I'm not sure. 19-20 BAB might pull it off.
A -5 is hard to eat, but two additional shots is hard to beat.

Woodland Archer makes the penalty peanuts, particularly in conjunction with Splitting Bow or some such. Add ToB stuff for Time Stands Still eventually for extra value out of multiple full attack actions, and you're getting ridiculous bonuses outta it, to the tune of 100 attacks a turn on level 20 (Eternal Blade using Time Stands Still > Island in Time > Eternal Training to learn Time Stands Still > Time Stands Still > Belt of Battle > Full Attack for a total of 5 full attacks in a turn).

This one really has me perplexed. It looks useless.
Unless, are they saying the next arrow? Or the next attack round? Because, why would you sacrifice ALL your attacks, unless it boosts next round?

In the first case, you sacrifice your highest BAB for a +1 threat on your lower BAB.
In the second, you sacrifice your lowest/last arrows for increased threat on your highest BAB. ?

It says "sacrifice attacks...". You can't sacrifice all attacks. So until the next full attack action. The only use I've found for this is getting autocrit (nice with Deepwood Sniper and crit carriers) with Aura of Perfect Order and enough attacks (Whirling Frenzy, Arrow Swarm, Rapid Shot, Dancing Mongoose suffices - 100% non-magical autocrit each turn). Removes the need for rolling, though of course the lack of great crit carriers and one little spell called Hunter's Mercy makes this totally stupid (but a fun little exercise nevertheless).

To synergize dex and str on archers is tough, and this doesn't fix it. But if you bypass enough crit immunities it might work. ? You'd probably still need to support str, so it's a potential bonus to some things.

Any of those stand out? Perhaps synergy between arrow swarm and sniper? Or just no.

Arrow Swarm alone is insane. I use it in every mundane archer build I've built if allowed since it's just too good. The others...eh. But Woodland Archer + Arrow Swarm (and other stuff like Knowledge Devotion and potentially Ranged Weapon Mastery) means the attack bonus penalty isn't even a big deal. Archery is funny in that you have a lot of ways to boost your hit but actually boosting your damage without magic is quite tricky.

[Psyren]

I didn't know about Woodland Archer, shows my familiarity with 3.5 (i.e. very little these days.) That does nearly negate Arrow Swarm's drawback. Of course, it also highlights the danger of allowing Dragon Magazine as you have to be aware not only of what the material itself does but also its potential interactions with all other material printed in first-party. Not saying that 8+ arrows a round is necessarily broken, of course, though I do think 100 arrows in a round might be a bit more than most GMs bargained for.

It says "sacrifice attacks...". You can't sacrifice all attacks. So until the next full attack action. The only use I've found for this is getting autocrit (nice with Deepwood Sniper and crit carriers) with Aura of Perfect Order and enough attacks (Whirling Frenzy, Arrow Swarm, Rapid Shot, Dancing Mongoose suffices - 100% non-magical autocrit each turn). Removes the need for rolling, though of course the lack of great crit carriers and one little spell called Hunter's Mercy makes this totally stupid (but a fun little exercise nevertheless).

Am I missing something? What does Hunter's Mercy add here? Seems like you would want to get autocrit one way or the other, but both would be redundant.

[Saintheart]

I didn't know about Woodland Archer, shows my familiarity with 3.5 (i.e. very little these days.) That does nearly negate Arrow Swarm's drawback. Of course, it also highlights the danger of allowing Dragon Magazine as you have to be aware not only of what the material itself does but also its potential interactions with all other material printed in first-party. Not saying that 8+ arrows a round is necessarily broken, of course, though I do think 100 arrows in a round might be a bit more than most GMs bargained for.

Pretty sure any DM who remembers Wind Wall can handle 100 arrows per round

[Psyren]

Pretty sure any DM who remembers Wind Wall can handle 100 arrows per round

It still amuses me how disproportionate a counter that is in 3.5.

But it's still situational - there's a bunch of powerful monsters with no way to generate one, e.g. a Balor or the Tarrasque.

[bean illus]

Pretty sure any DM who remembers Wind Wall can handle 100 arrows per round

It still amuses me how disproportionate a counter that is in 3.5.

Doesn't force bypass windwall?

You don't need Dragon Mag to get lotsa arrows.

Am I missing something? What does Hunter's Mercy add here? Seems like you would want to get autocrit one way or the other, but both would be redundant.

Hunter's mercy is a swift auto crit on your first hit.

Aura of Perfect Order is Crusader 6 Stance, free immediate interruption for 11 on your next d20.

Two different single autocrits, split is 4. The same build would probably also delivers 2+ (4+) other crits the same round for 8 crits x4 +/-.

Unless, ... you get to attack twice. Then it gets even nuttier.

[Psyren]

Doesn't force bypass windwall?

Assuming you mean the Force enchantment in MiC, it doesn't mention beating wind at all, only incorporeal and DR.

Hunter's mercy is a swift auto crit on your first hit.

My Spell Compendium says its a standard action, was that errataed somewhere?

You don't need Dragon Mag to get lotsa arrows.

All the more reason to not allow it

[bean illus]

Assuming you mean the Force enchantment in MiC, it doesn't mention beating wind at all, only incorporeal and DR.

My Spell Compendium says its a standard action, was that errataed somewhere?

All the more reason to not allow it

Doesn't magic missile trump windwall?

I'm sure your right about Hunters Mercy, ... seems i was thinking of arrowmind (immediate). Thanks.

Really, it's little difference, but season to taste, and try not to complain that casters each own several planes of their own making, where they stop time for free wishes.

... , the penalty is likely to be offset by bonuses like Dex, Bracers of archery, enhancement bonus, etc.

For the increase in crit. You could indeed lose your 'last attack that might have missed anyway' to improve the base crit range of your attacks that are more likely to hit. Keep in mind that this crit range increase is before improved critical takes effect. So 19-20 bow ( improved crit 17-20 ) would become a 18-20 ( 15-20 improved crit ) if you gave up one attack.

Nice! I didn't catch that.

... snip ... In accordance to interesting wording of the targeteer, you can sacrifice natural weapon attacks ( they would normally be done in a full attack as secondary weapons ) to up your threat range for free. ... ...
A targeteer fighter with enough resources could do a crit range of 1-20 ( with improved crit ).

Well, depending on needed optimization cheese at the table. Some versions of the build do use monk 2. Invisible Fist is nice on archers.

the alternate Fighter from Dragon Magazine? My gut reaction to the abilities:

Arrow Swarm: A -5 penalty to all your attacks is a huge drawback, one I'm not sure two extra attacks offsets DPR-wise. Keep in mind this likely means that only your highest iteratives will hit, and probably not even then. Moreover it's unclear if this stacks with Rapid Shot since it requires it; if it does, the penalties stack too ... snip ... .

I'm pretty sure it stacks with RS, and Improved Rapid Shot removes the penalty.

Sniper: ... dump the lowest iteratives ... to power up your remaining shots. It also appears to stack with Improved Critical ... . And yes, my reading is that Arrow Swarm and Sniper can be used together ... .

Vital Aim: While Dex to damage sounds great on paper, the trouble here is that it only applies to ranged weapons that gave you Str to damage in the first place, so you can replace it. This means composite bows, slings and thrown weapons. Composite bows have the twin drawbacks of still having a Str requirement to use, and tend to have low caps, so all you've really done at that point is make yourself MAD for a couple extra points of damage. Slings fare slightly better but are hard to use in 3.5; the best use I can think of for this is a TWF thrower build.

... ... .

I think the reason there are so many limits on archery is obvious (though it took me awhile to see it, lol)

Doing 1,000+ hp weapon damage from 1,000'+/- away, with countless options to add spells, bypass resistance, add riders, and otherwise customize shot by shot, against dozens of separate targets per round, has the potential to catalyze rocket tag.

Even as it is, it has nearly that much.

Apart from just having way too much to-hit, Woodland Archer also makes Arrow Swarm worth usingm . If you miss an attack because of Arrow Swarm, you'll get +4 to hit for your subsequent attacks, effectively getting an extra attack in return for -1 to-hit. If you miss two attacks because of AS, WA will grant you +8 to hit against the same target, and you come out ahead for your other shots. It's even crazier with a splitting bow, naturally, where you potentially get a net +11 to-hit if you miss all four bonus attacks from your splitting Arrow Swarm.

Which, ... could be adjusted with Sniper, by dropping the 3 lowest iterations to add 6 to the remaining crit threats, for 13-20. If your not hitting drop Sniper, and your last 3 iterations get higher attack each miss, with normal imp crit.

Woodland Archer is a fighter feat, but of course Dragon Magazine fighters are stuck with their stupid fixed bonus feat lists... I think most DMs will let you take an archery feat on a Targetteer, though.

And Warblade gets Fighter feats, and others?

Woodland Archer makes the penalty peanuts, particularly in conjunction with Splitting Bow or some such. Add ToB stuff for Time Stands Still eventually for extra value out of multiple full attack actions, and you're getting ridiculous bonuses outta it, to the tune of 100 attacks a turn on level 20 (Eternal Blade using Time Stands Still > Island in Time > Eternal Training to learn Time Stands Still > Time Stands Still > Belt of Battle > Full Attack for a total of 5 full attacks in a turn).

True, but that's 14 levels of ToB?

I've looked at Warblade, not so much Eternal Blade. But ...

PBS, RS, MS, IRS
WF, WSp, RWM
WA, AS ... 9 feats, and only 4 from 14 levels of ToB. Theoretically you still need Precise Shot.
Simple enough, if that's what you want at level 17-20.

... . The only use I've found for this is getting autocrit (nice with Deepwood Sniper and crit carriers) with Aura of Perfect Order and enough attacks (Whirling Frenzy, Arrow Swarm, Rapid Shot, Dancing Mongoose suffices - 100% non-magical autocrit each turn).

Whirling Frenzy and Deepwood Sniper are 3 levels. It's gonna be hard to get 6 feats in the 3 available levels that are left.

Raging Mongoose is possible with 10 levels of ToB. No Time Stands Still, but you can get Deepwood Sniper, Skills (including max Concentration for Warblade), and a few feats for a secondary schtick.

Arrow Swarm alone is insane. ... Woodland Archer + Arrow Swarm (and other stuff like Knowledge Devotion ... Ranged Weapon Mastery) ... ... but actually boosting your damage without magic is quite tricky.

Two levels of Ranger grants Rapid Shot, and wand access.

So, a Hasted Improved Rapid Whirling Deepwood Raging Mongoose Woodland Archer Arrow Swarm has 11 shots. Eight of which are full BAB -5.

Splitting = 16 full BAB-5 shots at 19-20 x4.
Belt of Battle doubles that.

WA kinda makes Sniper unneeded.
But if you decided to use it; dropping the last 3 iteratives would give:

32 full BAB shots at 40% crit chance x4. Add Hunters Mercy and enjoy 14 x4 crits or 1,700 crit damage. YMMV.

It does make Power Shot more tempting. Still, the 3 levels for Peerless Archer make it more ot less infeasible.

[animewatcha]

Apart from just having way too much to-hit, Woodland Archer also makes Arrow Swarm worth using. If you miss an attack because of Arrow Swarm, you'll get +4 to hit for your subsequent attacks, effectively getting an extra attack in return for -1 to-hit. If you miss two attacks because of AS, WA will grant you +8 to hit against the same target, and you come out ahead for your other shots. It's even crazier with a splitting bow, naturally, where you potentially get a net +11 to-hit if you miss all four bonus attacks from your splitting Arrow Swarm.

Woodland Archer is a fighter feat, but of course Dragon Magazine fighters are stuck with their stupid fixed bonus feat lists... I think most DMs will let you take an archery feat on a Targetteer, though.

Targeteer came up around very beginning of 3.5 like PHB timeframe. So 'bonus feats' from later books are fair game.

[Psyren]

Doesn't magic missile trump windwall?

Yes, but a projectile doesn't become magic missile simply because it deals force damage. Magic Missile also doesn't roll to attack and can't crit.

I'm sure your right about Hunters Mercy, ... seems i was thinking of arrowmind (immediate). Thanks.

Am I missing something? Arrowmind has nothing to do with critical hits.

Really, it's little difference, but season to taste, and try not to complain that casters each own several planes of their own making, where they stop time for free wishes.

Uh... I'm not seeing where this came from at all

I'm pretty sure it stacks with RS, and Improved Rapid Shot removes the penalty.

Like Woodland Archer, this too isn't on the Targetteer bonus feat list on account of not being core. Though you can certainly spend a normal feat on it, sure.

I think the reason there are so many limits on archery is obvious (though it took me awhile to see it, lol)

Doing 1,000+ hp weapon damage from 1,000'+/- away, with countless options to add spells, bypass resistance, add riders, and otherwise customize shot by shot, against dozens of separate targets per round, has the potential to catalyze rocket tag.

Even as it is, it has nearly that much.

Honestly, I think 100 attacks/1000HP in a round is too much regardless of range.

[bean illus]

Yes, but a projectile doesn't become magic missile simply because it deals force damage. Magic Missile also doesn't roll to attack and can't crit.

That makes sense. I've just often heard it does that.

Am I missing something? Arrowmind has nothing to do with critical hits.

You're not. They're just next to each other in my notes.

Uh... I'm not seeing where this came from at all

It wasn't a direct reply to anything you said. Just noticing the mechanic that 'casters will still be easily more powerful'.

Like Woodland Archer, this too isn't on the Targetteer bonus feat list on account of not being core. Though you can certainly spend a normal feat on it, sure.

Of course. It does work out though, if you're careful.

Honestly, I think 100 attacks/1000HP in a round is too much regardless of range.

I try to avoid the most obvious cheese, but my restraint rarely stops others from going elbow deep. lol.
My builds only have 1 extra full attack (or so), not 3+ extra full attacks. And usually the effective range is less than 400', less than the casters, and without divination and contingency.

In truth, the build discussed only has 10 split shots (20) before the Belt of Battle 1/day, and a 'haste item'. Four of them come after 15th level. It's an epic level build

[Ruethgar]

I had a lovely Targeteer who (ab)used a source of a Produce Flame SLA to use that as his weapon. It didn't bypass the minus to hit from Arrow Swarm, but it did make it significantly less important because touch attack ftw! I also found a way to let you not take that last attack so Sniper could stack for the next round. Was a really fun character, shame I barely went through one dungeon with him, so much fire.