Duskblade/Abjurer build advice

[CBAnaesthesia]

Hi all,

My group has only ever played 4e and 5e, but we are starting a 3.5e campaign to try it out. I was interested in trying to build something similar to one of my favorite characters from a 5e game, an Eldritch Knight/Abjurer.

Here's what I've got planned, but as I said I don't have any 3.5e experience (besides playing a fair amount of NWN modules and Pathfinder: Kingmaker). Players are allowed all the "Complete" books and "Races" books but that's it as far as we know so far, and 32-Point Buy. Is this viable and could it even be good?

Jonos Armsman
LG Human Duskblade 14/Abjurant Champion 5/Abjurer 1
15 Str 12 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha

Plan is mostly to use Falchions and polearms. Medium armor, heavy Mithral armor when money permits.

Level 1: Duskblade 1
-Feats: Power Attack, Versatile Spellcaster (Human Bonus)
Level 2: Abjurer 1
-Give up Enchant, Evo
-Owl Familiar
-Get Shield at this level
Level 3: Duskblade 2
-Feats: Combat Casting (Duskblade), Knowledge Devotion (Arcana)
-Skill Trick: Collector of Stories
Level 4: Duskblade 3
- +1Str
Level 5: Duskblade 4
Level 6: Duskblade 5
- Feat: Energy Abjuration
Level 7: Duskblade 6
Level 8: Duskblade 7
- +1 Str
Level 9: Duskblade 8
- Feat: Arcane Strike
Level 10: Duskblade 9
Level 11: Duskblade 10
Level 12: Duskblade 11
- +1 Str
- Feat: Improved Familiar (Hippogriff)
Level 13: Duskblade 12
Level 14: Duskblade 13
Level 15: Abjurant Champion 1
- +1 Duskblade CL
- Feat: Leadership
Level 16: Abjurant Champion 2
- +1 Duskblade CL
- +1 Str
Level 17: Abjurant Champion 3
- +1 Duskblade CL
Level 18: Abjurant Champion 4
- +1 Duskblade CL
- Feat: Not sure, maybe Craft Magic Weapons & Armor (for RP)
Level 19: Abjurant Champion 5
- +1 Wizard CL
- Martial Arcanist (Wizard)
Level 20: Duskblade 14
- +1 Str

I'm mainly taking Abjurer for the access to Shield which will be handy at lower levels when I can't wear much armor, then again later when I take Abjurant Champ. Energy Abjuration looks pretty good too although it may not scale the best, but it's easy to hit the prereqs quite early, and I will probably be casting quite a few Abjuration spells. Of course, access to a Familiar is always good too. I believe that I can still cast from my prohibited schools if I learn those spells from the Duskblade list, although that would prohibit me from using wands and scrolls with Evocation and Enchantment spells.

I'm planning to mostly keep leveling Duskblade spell progression via Abjurant Champ so that I don't fall behind on CL from levels 15-19, only leveling Wizard at the end to get CL 19 Wizard and CL 18 Duskblade.

Something I'm not entirely clear on is how my Wizard and Duskblade casting will interact. If I know Shield, can I cast it with my Duskblade spell slots because it's a spell I know, or am I limited to 2 prepared casts (plus my Int bonus spells) as a Level 1 Abjurer? I feel like it is the latter but I'm not sure.

Any recommendations would be very helpful and much appreciated. Especially concerning must-have spells - obviously Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch, and a bunch of Abjuration spells, but otherwise I don't know how Duskblades do with buffs and debuffs and how their spells scale.

Cheers!

[Kurald Galain]

Something I'm not entirely clear on is how my Wizard and Duskblade casting will interact. If I know Shield, can I cast it with my Duskblade spell slots because it's a spell I know,

Nope. Furthermore, you'll have to make a check to cast it wearing armor (because wizards get arcane spell failure in armor).

I don't know how Duskblades do with buffs and debuffs

They basically don't. Duskblades do well at damage spells, and pretty poorly at anything else. They have such a short spell list; you basically take the damage spells, the swift spells, and dimension hop; and that's it.

If you're looking for a solid 3.5-compatible Gish class, ask your DM to approve this one as it is much better and more versatile than duskblade.

[Khedrac]

Hi all,

Welcome to 3.5, it's a bit of a mess, but we seem to love it.

My group has only ever played 4e and 5e, but we are starting a 3.5e campaign to try it out. I was interested in trying to build something similar to one of my favorite characters from a 5e game, an Eldritch Knight/Abjurer.

Here's what I've got planned, but as I said I don't have any 3.5e experience (besides playing a fair amount of NWN modules and Pathfinder: Kingmaker). Players are allowed all the "Complete" books and "Races" books but that's it as far as we know so far, and 32-Point Buy. Is this viable and could it even be good?

To be honest, you should probably either play Duskblade straight, or with presitge classes advancing it only, it really doesn't synergise well with other casting classes.

Something I'm not entirely clear on is how my Wizard and Duskblade casting will interact. If I know Shield, can I cast it with my Duskblade spell slots because it's a spell I know, or am I limited to 2 prepared casts (plus my Int bonus spells) as a Level 1 Abjurer? I feel like it is the latter but I'm not sure.

They don't interact at all, your duskblade and abjurer casting are completely separate.

Any recommendations would be very helpful and much appreciated. Especially concerning must-have spells - obviously Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch, and a bunch of Abjuration spells, but otherwise I don't know how Duskblades do with buffs and debuffs and how their spells scale.

Cheers!

Sorry, but my recommendation is "don't". At low levels your duskblade's AC will be comparable to the pure melees' as they will be in similar armor, using shield would push your AC noticably higher.
You can make a good eldritch knight/abjurer build without using duskbalde (or, importantly, eldritch knight) and a search for "gish" builds and handbooks should throw a few up.

Good luck and enjoy.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you want other spells on your Duskblade spell list, go for Recaster (Changeling prc) or Wyrm Wizard.

Wyrm Wizard is easier to enter but loses min 1 caster lvl to get you an extra spell from another class. Recaster limits your race but gives full casting.

Have a look at my signature. The Shivering Tornado build is an optimized Duskbalde Recaster that has specialized on the Shivering Touch spell. Should give you an example how such a build could look like.

[CBAnaesthesia]

Thanks very much for the help, everyone.

Nope. Furthermore, you'll have to make a check to cast it wearing armor (because wizards get arcane spell failure in armor).

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm so used to 5e's specifying things like "you can cast spells by doing X" vs "you can cast Class Y spells by doing X" that I didn't consider that, which is obviously a huge difference.

They basically don't. Duskblades do well at damage spells, and pretty poorly at anything else. They have such a short spell list; you basically take the damage spells, the swift spells, and dimension hop; and that's it.

If you're looking for a solid 3.5-compatible Gish class, ask your DM to approve this one as it is much better and more versatile than duskblade.

Also good to know. I played a Magus in the Kingmaker CRPG and it was awesome (seeing your sig now, I realize I used your guide a bit for that). I'll see what he says - we were a bit restricted in our choice of source books but you never know.

Welcome to 3.5, it's a bit of a mess, but we seem to love it.

To be honest, you should probably either play Duskblade straight, or with presitge classes advancing it only, it really doesn't synergise well with other casting classes.

Yeah I am seeing that, unfortunately. I feel like Duskblade just doesn't get a lot past their level 13 channeling feature and the more common dips I've seen to use with AbjChamp like Demonbinder or Ur-Priest don't fit the character.

They don't interact at all, your duskblade and abjurer casting are completely separate.

Sorry, but my recommendation is "don't". At low levels your duskblade's AC will be comparable to the pure melees' as they will be in similar armor, using shield would push your AC noticably higher.
You can make a good eldritch knight/abjurer build without using duskbalde (or, importantly, eldritch knight) and a search for "gish" builds and handbooks should throw a few up.

Good luck and enjoy.

Thanks again - 5e's EK seemed like it was most analogous to the Duskblade to me, and Energy Abjuration seemed like a combo of Absorb Elements and Arcane Ward from 5e, both of which my I leaned on pretty heavily with that character.

I have looked through quite a few gish handbooks before posting this, but they seemed to largely rely on things outside of the allowed books in our game, like Luminous Armor (which sounds like a huge game changer, but isn't in scope of our game). Because of that I thought I'd like to keep armored casting but I'm not married to it, would like to stay a Str build though. Could I ask for some more specific starting points based on your recommendations?

If you want other spells on your Duskblade spell list, go for Recaster (Changeling prc) or Wyrm Wizard.

Wyrm Wizard is easier to enter but loses min 1 caster lvl to get you an extra spell from another class. Recaster limits your race but gives full casting.

Have a look at my signature. The Shivering Tornado build is an optimized Duskbalde Recaster that has specialized on the Shivering Touch spell. Should give you an example how such a build could look like.

Wyrm Wizard is outside of our allowed books it looks like, but Recaster could be pretty cool (though it means I'd be losing a fair amount of feats). If I'm largely doing it to get Shield on my spell list would you still recommend going with Empower and Maximize for the Metamagic prerequisites?

[Kurald Galain]

I feel like Duskblade just doesn't get a lot past their level 13 channeling feature and the more common dips I've seen to use with AbjChamp like Demonbinder or Ur-Priest don't fit the character.

Unfortunately, dusky doesn't get all that much before their level 13 channeling feature, either. It basically feels like dead levels from 6 to 12, mainly because there's very few useful spells on their list.

You haven't specified what level you'll be starting at; if it's level 1 then you might get to level 13 years later, or the campaign may end before you ever do. And at level 1 you may want feats that are actually useful at low level, instead of just for meeting prerequisites.

[CBAnaesthesia]

Unfortunately, dusky doesn't get all that much before their level 13 channeling feature, either. It basically feels like dead levels from 6 to 12, mainly because there's very few useful spells on their list.

You haven't specified what level you'll be starting at; if it's level 1 then you might get to level 13 years later, or the campaign may end before you ever do. And at level 1 you may want feats that are actually useful at low level, instead of just for meeting prerequisites.

We're starting at level 7. Our group tends to level relatively quickly and our DM seems interested in eventually hitting (low) epic levels since that wasn't a thing in 5e.

[Kurald Galain]

We're starting at level 7. Our group tends to level relatively quickly and our DM seems interested in eventually hitting (low) epic levels since that wasn't a thing in 5e.

Ok, then I have three suggestions.

One is to focus on greater arcane channeling. Go duskblade/13, then anything else you can think of, and focus on getting your reach as big as possible. This build may be helpful.
Another is that, due to the way the baseline channel ability is worded, it works with spells from any class. So take only three levels of duskblade and put the rest in wizard, cleric or druid and channel their touch spells. You'll get 3rd and 4th-level spells much earlier, and get an actual spell list. On this build, abjurant champion is pretty good.
And the third is Magus. Magus is hands-down better than dusky no matter how you put it. Ask your DM

[CBAnaesthesia]

Ok, then I have three suggestions.

One is to focus on greater arcane channeling. Go duskblade/13, then anything else you can think of, and focus on getting your reach as big as possible. This build may be helpful.

That is... sort of helpful I guess? I think I get the basic point of the build so I do appreciate the link, I'm just totally unaware of how gestalt rules work so I'm not sure how to translate all of that to a simple multiclass build, and what can be cut out to make it function as a Duskblade 13/Other stuff 7.

Another is that, due to the way the baseline channel ability is worded, it works with spells from any class. So take only three levels of duskblade and put the rest in wizard, cleric or druid and channel their touch spells. You'll get 3rd and 4th-level spells much earlier, and get an actual spell list. On this build, abjurant champion is pretty good.

Is there a way to make this into a 2-handed Str build that's moderately survivable without having access to Luminous Armor? If so then I'm leaning this way.

And the third is Magus. Magus is hands-down better than dusky no matter how you put it. Ask your DM

Yes I'll definitely run it by him. I feel like he might allow the base class but not archetypes (since the other players won't have that option) but that's fair enough and base Magus would probably suit my needs just fine.

Thanks again for all the advice.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're going for a 5e Eldritch Knight feel, I honestly don't think Duskblade is what you're looking for. Starting at 7th level you can be on your way to a respectable arcane gish build, and that would play a lot more similarly.

Start out Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1, plan to go Abjurant Champion for your next five levels and then finish the build with either Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom. An alternate start would be Human Paragon or Elf Paragon 1/ Wizard 2/ Fighter 1/ Human or Elf Paragon +2/ Spellsword 1, which gets the same BAB and spellcasting but better class features and skills. Use the martial Wizard variant to get a bonus Fighter feat instead of Scribe Scroll in any case. The best Wizard specialist school for this is actually Conjuration, since you can trade your familiar for Abrupt Jaunt in PH2 and Conjuration has some of the best damage and crowd control spells.

You'll definitely want Power Attack, other useful Fighter bonus feats include Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative. You'll want Practiced Spellcaster for Wizard, and Combat Casting to qualify for Abjurant Champion. You'll eventually want Extend Spell and Persistent Spell to make your low level buffs like Shield last all day. Sculpt Spell is really good for crowd controls, and Invisible Spell is also pretty amazing. Also consider Quicken Spell since you can cast as many spells in a round as you have actions for, unlike 5e. Leap Attack is also really good.

Get a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, and every day use that to cast Luminous Armor instead of wearing physical armor. Also get a Rod of Bodily Restoration to fix the Str damage that occurs when that spell ends. Later on start using Greater Luminous Armor instead, both are abjurations (unlike Mage Armor) and will be buffed by Abjurant Champion.

Put a wand chamber in your primary melee weapon, with a Wand of Wraithstrike, since the casting time is a swift action it takes the same to activate the wand per the Rules Compendium. So you can use Wraithstrike, then two-handed Power Attack for the max amount and you're almost guaranteed to hit. Get Armbands of Might which makes Power Attack even better. Use the Lesser Rod of Extend to put Greater Magic Weapon on that every day instead of paying for permanent enhancements. Maybe get it made +1 Valorous eventually, if you're into charge attacks. Spell Focus: Transmutation and Ability Enhancer can also be useful.

Magic items are way more important in 3.5 than they are in 5e. There's even a list of necessary magic items that every high-level character should have. For your starting level, get an Anklet of Translocation and a Healing Belt, and maybe either a Third Eye: Freedom or a Third Eye: Clarity if you can afford it. Plan to get a Circlet of Rapid Casting at some point, and add an Enhancement bonus to Int onto that per MIC p234.

Some of the best crowd control spells include Color Spray, Grease, Wall of Smoke, Web, Glitterdust, Cloud of Bewilderment, and Sleet Storm, most of which are conjurations. You don't really want to use your limited spell slots to deal damage, that's what your unlimited uses of melee attacks are for. Buff before combat, use one or two strong crowd controls to mitigate the effectiveness of multiple opponents and move into position, then lay waste to them with powerful melee hits.

On the subject of crowd controls, there are only three saving throws in 3.5: Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. Most monsters have racial HD instead of class levels, and creatures of a given type always have the same good saves for their racial HD. So an Aberration will always have poor Fort and Reflex saves (but may have a high Con and/or Dex score), Fey always have poor Fort saves, Giants always have poor Reflex and Will saves (and typically have very low Dex scores as well), etc. It's pretty easy to figure out what creature type a given opponent is, but you can also put at least one rank in every Knowledge skill that identifies a given creature by type (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, the Planes) and you'll be automatically entitled to roll a check of that type to see if you recognize what a given enemy is, which would include its creature type, and even if you don't succeed the type of check and creature's appearance should give you a pretty good idea. Get a note card and list each of those knowledge skills, then what creature types each one identifies, then for each creature type what its poor saves are for the racial HD, along with anything that creatures of that type are always resistant or immune to. Given your character's Int score, this is all information that he would be able to easily recall.

[CBAnaesthesia]

Start out Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1, plan to go Abjurant Champion for your next five levels...

Thanks for the tips here. I don't believe I have access to Knight Phantom or the Paragon classes but that gives me a good start to look into. Would you still recommend Enchant/Evo as opposed schools?

Get a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, and every day use that to cast Luminous Armor instead of wearing physical armor.

I appreciate this advice but I think Luminous Armor is only in BoED and I don't believe I'll have access to it. Is Mage Armor/Greater Mage Armor + Shield going to be good enough still or should I be looking into other sources of AC?

Magic Item and Spell advice

Thanks for the tips. I'm pretty new to the whole magic item economy.

Knowledge skills.

Yes, I was planning to take Knowledge Devotion - presumably that is still a good choice for this build since it has high Int and Knowledges as class skills mostly?

[Gruftzwerg]

Wyrm Wizard is outside of our allowed books it looks like, but Recaster could be pretty cool (though it means I'd be losing a fair amount of feats). If I'm largely doing it to get Shield on my spell list would you still recommend going with Empower and Maximize for the Metamagic prerequisites?

First, let me tell you that Shield ain't the kind of spell that you should add to a Duskblade spell list. If you really intend to play a Duskblade - Recaster, you should aim for touch spells that he can use with his Arcane Channeling ability as (later full-) attack action. If you really want Shield and other defensive buffs, a simple dip is the better solution. This way you can use your Duskbade slots primary for touch spells and for your diping class more buff spells.

On the other hand as others have pointed out, maybe you are better off with some other build to retain your flavor. If you can point out what is important for you (and put it into a new thread for better forum use^^) we could give better advice or even tailor something for you.

I myself haven't played 5E so far and can't tell what explicitly you are looking for..^^

[CBAnaesthesia]

First, let me tell you that Shield ain't the kind of spell that you should add to a Duskblade spell list. If you really intend to play a Duskblade - Recaster, you should aim for touch spells that he can use with his Arcane Channeling ability as (later full-) attack action. If you really want Shield and other defensive buffs, a simple dip is the better solution. This way you can use your Duskbade slots primary for touch spells and for your diping class more buff spells.

I thought Duskblades already got lots of good Touch spells on their list. What are the good ones they're lacking that you'd add through Recaster or Wyrm Wizard?

I was looking to get Shield via the Abjurer dip in the build I posted, but then I'm stuck with casting out of armor, which seems like a problem since it seems like we won't have Luminous Armor available.

I can make another post asking for different advice if that's the better etiquette but basically the character in 5e had:
- Good AC (due to casting in armor and Abjuration spells like Shield)
- Good damage output via 2-handed weapon with the 5e equivalent to Power Attack
- Limited ability to cast spells and attack in the same round (1 cantrip + 1 attack)
- Temp HP from Abjurer feature (shareable with the party)
- A decent amount of Abjuration spell ability (Dispelling, Counterspelling, gaining elemental resistances temporarily)
-"Half-casting" sort of on par with a Duskblade - only knew up to 4th level spells but could up-cast to 6th level slots for extra effects, kind of like Empowering I suppose
-Wizard spell list for some utility spells

Again I am not expecting a 1-to-1 translation because I don't think it is feasible but if there's a way to get a decent amount of those features, while maintaining a character that's not weak and that's got some utility, that's more or less what I'm looking for. Sorry if that's vague.

[Kurald Galain]

I thought Duskblades already got lots of good Touch spells on their list.

They have two good ones (Shocking Grasp and VampTouch); anything else they'll have to get elsewhere. So, not really.

[Gruftzwerg]

I thought Duskblades already got lots of good Touch spells on their list. What are the good ones they're lacking that you'd add through Recaster or Wyrm Wizard?

Imho the most notable one is Shivering Touch as I used for my build. It does ability damage to DEX. Without a few exceptions most things can drop to 0 DEX with a single (maxed) use and be "helpless". This spell is also known as dragon killer since most Dragons have crappy DEX scores. Also it can crit, so look for a 18-20 weapon and add keen for 15-20 crit range (=20% critchance).

I was looking to get Shield via the Abjurer dip in the build I posted, but then I'm stuck with casting out of armor, which seems like a problem since it seems like we won't have Luminous Armor available.

I can make another post asking for different advice if that's the better etiquette but basically the character in 5e had:
- Good AC (due to casting in armor and Abjuration spells like Shield)
- Good damage output via 2-handed weapon with the 5e equivalent to Power Attack
- Limited ability to cast spells and attack in the same round (1 cantrip + 1 attack)
- Temp HP from Abjurer feature (shareable with the party)
- A decent amount of Abjuration spell ability (Dispelling, Counterspelling, gaining elemental resistances temporarily)
-"Half-casting" sort of on par with a Duskblade - only knew up to 4th level spells but could up-cast to 6th level slots for extra effects, kind of like Empowering I suppose
-Wizard spell list for some utility spells

Again I am not expecting a 1-to-1 translation because I don't think it is feasible but if there's a way to get a decent amount of those features, while maintaining a character that's not weak and that's got some utility, that's more or less what I'm looking for. Sorry if that's vague.

Well, the duskblade recaster would be one option so far.

Here are a few other options you might want to look at:

Spellsword (prc):
This prestige class also has a channel ability for spells and can store them into his weapon. Doesn't get the full attack for touch spells like Duskblade, but may store 2 spells at lvl 10 of the prc. Further, since this is a prc, you have more flexibility for base classes. You could go for Sorc/Wiz for better spelllist or for a Bard or any other arcane class. You could even add it on Duskblade, but I guess he has a to poor spell selection for that and don't get higher lvl spells. Also worth mentioning is that he get to ignore up to 30% Arcane Spell Failure Chance for wearing armor.

Swiftblade (prc):
This is prc that is specialized in the Haste spell. Loses some levels of spellprogression, but is more melee combat focused therefor. Any class which gives you access to Haste as spell qualifies as entry.


or if you want to go with something more abstruse, how about a Glaivelock? Just pick an invocation to dispell at will. Resistances can also be gained as invocation.