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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Do Urban Druids get Double Crossbow proficiency for free?

    Hey Folks, I'm in a lil dilemma here.

    First we have the Urban Druid that gets proficiency with: Crossbow (any)

    Than we have the double crossbows from the Kobold web enhancement:
    Weapon Qualities

    These weapons require the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield without taking a -4 penalty on attack rolls, but taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (double crossbow) makes a character proficient in the use of all double crossbows. The penalty for wielding a hand crossbow without proficiency is cumulative with the penalty for wielding a double crossbow without proficiency.
    From the syntax, I would say they are separate weapons. But I can't find any rules associated with that clarifying my situation.

    On the other hand "Crossbow (any)" would imply that double crossbows should be included.

    What are your thoughts on this?
    Can you point me to a clear solution with rules?
    Or any similar situations in the FAQ or Sage Advice that would help?

    And as a bonus question: Am I right assuming that I need normal and double crossbow proficiency to avoid any penalties? I'm not sure if I read this right..^^
    Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-03-31 at 04:12 PM.
    El Mariachi dual double-hand-crossbow action
    Papa Smurf a Redcap Lion of Talisid (ubercharger/gish)
    Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock a Killer Kobold build
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Do Urban Druids get Double Crossbow proficiency for free?

    The way im parsing it is that you need both the exotic wepon pro (hand crossbow) and exotic weapon pro (double crossbow) to use a hand double crossbow with no penalties.

    If you just take EWP (double crossbow) you can use all double crossbows, but you take the penalty with hand double crossbows unless you have the additional EWP feat.

    Pure raw, urban druid gives you weapon proficiency, but you need EWP(double crossbow) to apply it to all double crossbows.


    Save two feats by Dipping warblade and just move weapon proficiencies over.
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2020-03-31 at 04:40 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Do Urban Druids get Double Crossbow proficiency for free?

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Save two feats by Dipping warblade and just move weapon proficiencies over.

    Imho that won't work out. Classes give you "proficiency" not the associated feats. This only happens in 3.5 video games but not RAW I believe (pls point me to any rule passage if I am wrong). And if that is the chase, you don't have any feat from class (weapon proficiency) to switch. And weapon aptitude requires a feat.
    El Mariachi dual double-hand-crossbow action
    Papa Smurf a Redcap Lion of Talisid (ubercharger/gish)
    Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock a Killer Kobold build
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do Urban Druids get Double Crossbow proficiency for free?

    Does the double crossbow count as a crossbow? Then yes, the urban druid is proficient...
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...Druid-Handbook
    Last edited by OrbanSirgen; 2020-03-31 at 09:30 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Do Urban Druids get Double Crossbow proficiency for free?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrbanSirgen View Post
    Does the double crossbow count as a crossbow?
    That's what I try to confirm here ..^^

    the syntax implies no, but I can't find any rules for the syntax to back this assumption up. And if we lack the rules for the syntax, crossbow (any) would imply you get it free.

    So can you provide some rules for this specific question?^^
    Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-03-31 at 09:49 PM.
    El Mariachi dual double-hand-crossbow action
    Papa Smurf a Redcap Lion of Talisid (ubercharger/gish)
    Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock a Killer Kobold build
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HisHighestMinio's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    The system of Sol

    Default Re: Do Urban Druids get Double Crossbow proficiency for free?

    Crossbow isn't a defined term. Since double crossbows are crossbows by the common definition, crossbow (any) applies. It does say that it requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but it doesn't say that it requires the feat, just proficiency. Even if it did say the feat, I don't think it would matter, since it is talking about the general case. In general, characters need the EWP feat to be proficient in an exotic weapon, but there are specific exceptions like exoticist fighter, master of masks, or urban druid.

    I also think you're allowed to use hand double crossbows without a nonproficiency penalty, because hand double crossbows require proficiency in both hand crossbows and double crossbows, both of which are covered by crossbow (any).
    My username should have been HisHighestMinion, with an N.
    15 is an unusual character limit.

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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Do Urban Druids get Double Crossbow proficiency for free?

    Quote Originally Posted by HisHighestMinio View Post
    Crossbow isn't a defined term. Since double crossbows are crossbows by the common definition, crossbow (any) applies. It does say that it requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but it doesn't say that it requires the feat, just proficiency. Even if it did say the feat, I don't think it would matter, since it is talking about the general case. In general, characters need the EWP feat to be proficient in an exotic weapon, but there are specific exceptions like exoticist fighter, master of masks, or urban druid.

    I also think you're allowed to use hand double crossbows without a nonproficiency penalty, because hand double crossbows require proficiency in both hand crossbows and double crossbows, both of which are covered by crossbow (any).
    I guess you're right. I am also missing any clear 3.5 specific definition for "crossbows" so it should cover the double crossbow proficiencies too.

    Thx for the help.


    If anyone else can provide anything more for or against this assumption (like a 3.5 crossbow definition), let me know^^
    El Mariachi dual double-hand-crossbow action
    Papa Smurf a Redcap Lion of Talisid (ubercharger/gish)
    Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock a Killer Kobold build
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

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