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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    True. The local one gives you a 1 in three hundred-something chance of getting your dollar back. Next level up is like 1 in 5000 to get $3. And people still play.
    Eh, I'd probably play the lotto if I could; I see it as effectively entertainment - you spend a dollar a week to imagine how awesome it would be if you won, with a non-zero chance of winning.

    I doubt a good deal of lotto players see it that way though.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    I can imagine that for free, and spend the dollar elsewhere.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I can imagine that for free, and spend the dollar elsewhere.
    Hence why I added the "non-zero chance" in there. Different strokes for different folks, what entertains me may not entertain others, and a buck every week or two for a small bit of fantasy sounds like it'd tickle my fancy.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Hence why I added the "non-zero chance" in there. Different strokes for different folks, what entertains me may not entertain others, and a buck every week or two for a small bit of fantasy sounds like it'd tickle my fancy.
    No need for the lotto, then: you can just imagine finding a 10 $ bill on the pavement. Your chances of winning is probably the same, and you aren't giving up any money
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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  5. - Top - End - #35
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    No need for the lotto, then: you can just imagine finding a 10 $ bill on the pavement. Your chances of winning is probably the same, and you aren't giving up any money
    Again, that's why I said "non-zero chance".

    For something that so far in my life has cost me ten dollars that I valued as worthwhile entertainment, I'm always surprise ld at the amount of pushback I get on it. Especially when that pushback explicitly avoids my reasoning.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-28 at 08:29 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Again, that's why I said "non-zero chance".

    For something that so far in my life has cost me ten dollars that I valued as worthwhile entertainment, I'm always surprise ld at the amount of pushback I get on it. Especially when that pushback explicitly avoids my reasoning.
    Clearly you are having fun wrong - now I will go spend much more money then that on [Insert Activity Here] which has zero chance of paying off because it is my money and [Insert Activity Here] amuses me.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Again, that's why I said "non-zero chance".

    For something that so far in my life has cost me ten dollars that I valued as worthwhile entertainment, I'm always surprise ld at the amount of pushback I get on it. Especially when that pushback explicitly avoids my reasoning.
    Technically, you do in fact have a non-zero chance of finding a $10 bill on the pavement. They didn't "explicitly avoid" your reasoning; they only mostly avoided it.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Again, that's why I said "non-zero chance".

    For something that so far in my life has cost me ten dollars that I valued as worthwhile entertainment, I'm always surprised at the amount of pushback I get on it. Especially when that pushback explicitly avoids my reasoning.
    I acknowledge your reasoning. I just think there's too many things and causes that need money to waste a dollar on the lottery when I can instead help fund the local food pantry, humane society, school backpacks, etc.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I acknowledge your reasoning. I just think there's too many things and causes that need money to waste a dollar on the lottery when I can instead help fund the local food pantry, humane society, school backpacks, etc.
    I do donate to charities directly. I also work with the 501st Legion, which, among other things, further raises money for charities.

    If I buy a new television, would you say that I could have out that money towards a local food pantry instead? If i sign up for a new streaming service, would you argue that it's a waste of seven dollars a month that could instead help the local school system? Do you forego all forms of entertainment so that you focus solely on improving all other aspects of society, and do not pay for any form of recreation ever?

    Because unless you answer "yes" to all those, I'll spend a few dollars to entertain myself any damn way I please and I will completely disregard any comments on how or why I am entertaining myself in the wrong way because it's not specifically a thing that you would do, thankyouverymuch.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-28 at 12:26 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Depends. Did you get a new television because the other died, or just for NewShiny? How much are you actually using that streaming service? Are your 'entertainment' dollars actually getting you entertainment, or just more stuff to pile up on the other stuff?

    I grew up poor enough I never got into stuff, I hate spending more than absolutely necessary and I am very aware of how much need there is out there. Which leads to my only getting New Thing when Old Thing no longer works, most things are subject to a strict cost-benefit analysis that shoves them in the discard pile and my biggest pile of 'stuff' is a few boxes of awards and certificates for my volunteer work. Well, the actual biggest pile is the stuff for keeping up my work certifications, but you know what I mean.

    This works for me. All I ask is that you keep the idea that there's a different way to do things in mind when deciding how to spend your money.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    Technically, you do in fact have a non-zero chance of finding a $10 bill on the pavement. They didn't "explicitly avoid" your reasoning; they only mostly avoided it.
    Technically there is a non-zero chance of you putting your hand on a wall and it moving through the wall.
    Get your physics out of my D&D!

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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Depends. Did you get a new television because the other died, or just for NewShiny? How much are you actually using that streaming service? Are your 'entertainment' dollars actually getting you entertainment, or just more stuff to pile up on the other stuff?

    I grew up poor enough I never got into stuff, I hate spending more than absolutely necessary and I am very aware of how much need there is out there. Which leads to my only getting New Thing when Old Thing no longer works, most things are subject to a strict cost-benefit analysis that shoves them in the discard pile and my biggest pile of 'stuff' is a few boxes of awards and certificates for my volunteer work. Well, the actual biggest pile is the stuff for keeping up my work certifications, but you know what I mean.

    This works for me. All I ask is that you keep the idea that there's a different way to do things in mind when deciding how to spend your money.
    Let me rephrase. Exactly how much do I need to use the streaming service to justify the expense? It it in terms of hours or in terms of the amount of enjoyment I get out of it? If hours, please state the number of hours. If enjoyment, what exactly is your argument here?

    You're passing judgement on me not giving a few dollars to others instead of using it for entertainment, despite the fact that I already give money to others and volunteer both time and effort directly to others and to fundraise for others. So, if you are going to pass judgement, I want to explore that judgement by seeing how it applies to you. I am, after all, being judged by you, I think it's only fair. So, I assume you only buy the cheapest possible food to suit your exact nutritional needs? Anything more, after all, is unnecessary. Surely you're not indulging in petty things like flavor when you could instead get the bare minimum and give the money you save to food pantries. After all, are you eating food for caloric intake, or just for NewShiny NiceTasty?

    Further, I'm rather surprised that you specifically asked, "Are your 'entertainment' dollars actually getting you entertainment, or just more stuff to pile up on the other stuff?" Because yes, my entire argument this whole time has been "I rarely play the lottery but when I do I my 'entertainment' dollar actually gets me entertainment" but for some reason you argued against that and have been continuing to argue against that while simultaneously waving the "why don't you donate" flag despite not knowing a single thing about how much or often I donate (and again, donate not only money, but also work and time) and then when informed that I do already donate simply assuming it could be more based on absolutely nothing.

    So no. You can tell me that you subsist solely on bread and water and give vast reserves of your freed-up wealth to food banks and schools, or you can continue to argue that an unknown percent of my unknown budget can be added to my unknown amount of donations with complete disregard for how others derive entertainment because it differs from how you do. Frankly, I don't care which, because neither will make me feel that your argument is in any way justified.

    Or, ya know, the third option of "maybe it's not a good idea to pass judgement on how others entertain themselves, especially when it hurts absolutely nobody, double especially when it is remarkably low dollar amounts, and triple especially when they openly tell you that they already do the things you think they should do instead." That one's good. I vote for that one.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-28 at 04:15 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Or, ya know, the third option of "maybe it's not a good idea to pass judgement on how others entertain themselves, especially when it hurts absolutely nobody, double especially when it is remarkably low dollar amounts, and triple especially when they openly tell you that they already do the things you think they should do instead." That one's good. I vote for that one.
    That reads a bit odd (to me).
    Do you mean 'especially when it hurts absolutely nobody' or should this be 'unless it harms someone'?*
    *(and then remove double and replace triple with double).

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    That reads a bit odd (to me).
    Do you mean 'especially when it hurts absolutely nobody' or should this be 'unless it harms someone'?*
    *(and then remove double and replace triple with double).
    I can understand that, but I didn't want to lump in enjoying playing/watching sports. Quick and dirty example, I like to throw sidearm, and I like when pros decide to throw sidearm, despite that throwing sidearm makes one more prone to injury (obviously I don't want them injured, but it's a risk).
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-28 at 04:45 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I can understand that, but I didn't want to lump in enjoying playing/watching sports. Quick and dirty example, I like to throw sidearm, and I like when pros decide to throw sidearm, despite that throwing sidearm makes one more prone to injury (obviously I don't want them injured, but it's a risk).
    Ah, understood - I was thinking more 'someone actively harming others for fun could be judged' but getting a statement to include the exceptions (either way) would just make it clunky.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Again, that's why I said "non-zero chance".

    For something that so far in my life has cost me ten dollars that I valued as worthwhile entertainment, I'm always surprise ld at the amount of pushback I get on it. Especially when that pushback explicitly avoids my reasoning.
    It wasn't really a pushback: you did say you can't play lotto, so I proposed an alternative
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    It wasn't really a pushback: you did say you can't play lotto, so I proposed an alternative
    Ha! Fair point.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I acknowledge your reasoning. I just think there's too many things and causes that need money to waste a dollar on the lottery when I can instead help fund the local food pantry, humane society, school backpacks, etc.
    But if the lottery dollar does support charity? Which funnily enough is how most got started and the reason they tend to remain allowed. So e.g. I read in historical magazine about the first lotteries here which were used to fund charitable projects, while simultaneously acknowledged to provide an outlet for a desire for gambling in people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I don't know the whole picture, but I know part of the lottery revenue from the sale of tickets goes into the payout fund. So to a certain extent, the lottery is a Ponzi scheme.
    Not really. A Ponzi scheme uses past revenue to masquerade as future profit slowly moving the "payout" to a future date that will never arrive and accrue a significant shortfall. A lottery is quite explicit that the majority of the revenue is paid back to the players immediately (that is of the lottery rounds' "takings", say 95% is used to pay current winners). I'm not sure what the typical number is but usually such cases like to brag with 90-95% or even higher returns of winnings. Effectively a lottery is a form of capital aggregation and distribution. Each round of the lottery is more or less self-funding. Allowing for a a certain variation along methods and so on (lotteries are organised in various ways). This is why at least here unpaid revenue is piled-up and paid out at a later date in a increasingly large "jackpot".


    I used to pick up a lottery ticket for a while while it was easy in the grocery store. Since it's a state controlled monopoly it's transparent and (most of) the proceeds go to various charitable causes, a lot of youth sports e.g. get a lot of money off it. It is not a lot different than putting a buck in a jar of the ppl standing outside the supermarket, except that I can't tell how they use the funds and I can only support one specific cause I might not care for (the charities themselves also do not necessarily put all revenue into actual charity). And the lottery at least in theory I could win something. Once got 10 bucks back, yay.
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2020-07-28 at 07:14 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    I'm not sure how it works where you live (Sweden, isn't it?), but here in the U.S. the state takes 50-70% of the lottery money off the top and uses it to fund the bureaucracy and various political pet projects (for instance, North Dakota hired private security forces to go after the protestors during the DAPL thing a couple years ago). Youth sports are generally controlled by the school districts, and paid for out of property taxes (and some ticket sales).

    Naturally, there is no such thing as transparency involved. Yet another thing to invest sweat equity in.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I'm not sure how it works where you live (Sweden, isn't it?), but here in the U.S. the state takes 50-70% of the lottery money off the top and uses it to fund the bureaucracy and various political pet projects (for instance, North Dakota hired private security forces to go after the protestors during the DAPL thing a couple years ago). Youth sports are generally controlled by the school districts, and paid for out of property taxes (and some ticket sales).

    Naturally, there is no such thing as transparency involved. Yet another thing to invest sweat equity in.
    Technically Finland, but for anything happened before 1809 Sweden. The countries are, however, very very similar. And I watch mostly Swedish tv. So clearly quite different approaches how to organise a lottery. Even the privately owned gambling companies pay out around 95% winnings (at least that's what they advertise to attract players).

    Because I was now curious, and because I could, I went and hunted down the numbers for the state monopoly (all gaming not just lottery, lottery represents somewhere about 25-30% of it). It's not as good as I thought actually. Roughly 45% of revenue are paid out as winnings. Of the remaining part, ~1.7 B last year, 60% goes to charitable* causes, 9% fees to distributors, 12% is state lottery tax and 19% goes to administration. *Charitable here means supporting various sports, veterans, culture, social-health and research activities. Though the company itself doesn't pick these. Though spitballing it ends up being somewhere close to 80% of revenue going back to "society", players, charitable causes and state. I guess it's not that bad.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    I take it "Administration" covers advertising? I don't see that listed separately.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by el minster View Post
    Technically there is a non-zero chance of you putting your hand on a wall and it moving through the wall.
    I've punched through walls before, yes.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I take it "Administration" covers advertising? I don't see that listed separately.
    I think so yes. There are televised lotto draws and other such that it pays for too. Advertisement is quite strictly limited though by law. So generally speaking they can only advertise how much good things they do with proceeds.

    The main idea with the set-up is that gambling will exist regardless so rather than futilely fight it or completely abdicate responsibility it will exist under controlled forms to 1) minimize it and it's impact and 2) provide funding for socially acceptable causes.

    An effective monopoly on distribution of most alcoholic beverages exists for the same reason. That one always seemed more schizophrenic in it's execution than the gambling monopoly.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    We have both here. The state lottery is really just another tax by now, with little going anywhere useful (definitely not to roads and bridges, the stated purpose when they started). The alcohol revenue goes to the police, who thus have little incentive to try and shut down things like underage drinking or college house parties, since they're effectively paid to enable it.

    As you can guess, I throw a cold and fishy eye on the whole schmear.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    I've heard lottery being described as a tax on idiots and I can see where that idea comes from.

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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    I maintain the lottery would be far less profitable if there was a good chance to make a solid living from wages. With wages being flat for decades, the lottery becomes more attractive as the chance to have a good life, and give a good life to your friends and family.

    That's why you often hear people say "If I win the lottery, I'm going to pay off all my bills and make sure my parents are taken care of" not "If I win the lottery, we'll finally buy that third house and give the nanny a slight raise"... people with second-house and nanny money don't play the lottery because they don't need the extra money as desperately.
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I maintain the lottery would be far less profitable if there was a good chance to make a solid living from wages. With wages being flat for decades, the lottery becomes more attractive as the chance to have a good life, and give a good life to your friends and family.
    I have a few other, similar theories.
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I maintain the lottery would be far less profitable if there was a good chance to make a solid living from wages. With wages being flat for decades, the lottery becomes more attractive as the chance to have a good life, and give a good life to your friends and family.

    That's why you often hear people say "If I win the lottery, I'm going to pay off all my bills and make sure my parents are taken care of" not "If I win the lottery, we'll finally buy that third house and give the nanny a slight raise"... people with second-house and nanny money don't play the lottery because they don't need the extra money as desperately.
    I'd like to say more but probably heading into inappropriate topics if I do. Suffice to say where I live the first claim be rather rare to hear because most of it is sorted already. So more likely to be "then we can pay off mortgage now instead of in 20 years and travel more". How do we count profitable though? Looking at the numbers about 25% of the total pot comes from the lottery. A whopping 40% from various slotmachines. Funnily enough they claim they are purposefully are trying to get people to play lottery as a "lower risk gambling" I assume compared to casino, slotmachines and sports betting. There's only 1 draw a week and not really incentives to keep increasing the stake I would assume is the thought.

    I would argue what you really lose your shirt on is the online slotmachine equivalents and betting. That's usually where I see the people desperate to "fix" their life end up. Been a couple "big" such cases locally leading to the gaming monopoly changing rules like limiting daily stakes and such.



    Oh! Apropos nothing, I suddenly stumbled onto the marketing numbers, last year they spent almost 30 M euro on marketing (out of a turnover of roughly 3 B).
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2020-07-31 at 09:27 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    So 3%. Over here, advertising is recommended to be 5% of your gross, so not too bad since you're a government entity instead of a corporation.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: I Won The Lottery

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    So 3%. Over here, advertising is recommended to be 5% of your gross, so not too bad since you're a government entity instead of a corporation.
    And legally speakign they cannot advertise to entice you to play.

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