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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Oh, there it is, I didn't see it on my pass, sorry about that.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by clash View Post
    My idea for a psion taking into account this conversation is this:
    * Take the warlock chasis except give them psi points instead of spell slots and smooth the progression a bit. The short rest model prevents novaing to some capcity and gives them some staying power and give them a psionic spell list.
    * Make Psionic talents(like invocations) that allow you to use certain psionic abilities at will. Things like detect thoughts. This makes you feel psionic all the time, not just when you have points.
    * Keep the warlocks long rest progression for spells over 5th level to prevent casting multiple ninth level spells or shenanigans like that.
    * Remove the rest of the warlock abilities and replace them with psionic focused abilities and subclasses. (ie telepath, telekinetic, pyrokinetic)

    You might ask, how is that different than a warlock? To which I would answer how is a cleric different from a wizard? Just because it uses the same chasis for the way spellcasting works doesnt mean there wouldnt be valid design space for it.
    It's fair enough. Every full spellcasting class uses the same chassis, but the way subclasses and class features are spread out actually makes a difference.

    While I do like the idea of using the Warlock chassis, I'd rein in a bit. I'd make it more Sorcerer-based, but I do like the idea that higher-level powers should work like Mystic Arcanas. In fact...much like Mark Hall, I have worked a Psion under the following terms:
    • First, using Power Points. This is something I feel that encompasses how psionics have worked in D&D - perhaps not from their beginning, but as early as AD&D 2nd Edition.
    • Instead of cantrips, they get Talents. They're otherwise functionally the same as cantrips, including how they scale. I used D&D 3e and d20 Modern psionics 0-level powers as examples, wiht a few others I felt were worthwhile.
    • Powers are where things differ a lot. You get the same amount of powers learned as a sorcerer, but you can learn ANY power. See, the idea is that some powers are extremely broad (Psychokinesis powers are focused on either one energy type OR force damage, or fine manipulation of objects) while others are very specific. The thing is, you could, in theory, learn a power which you can't use at first, because you can't spend enough powers to cover its minimum cost.
    • Power point limit, which would be the real limiting factor. You can't use a power if, after all the stuff you can add it, the total cost of the power can't exceed that limit. So, if you could spend 5 power points at once, you could use a power that costs 3 power points and augment it with 2 extra points, either increasing damage or altering its effect. This is in line with the 3.5 incarnation, which I feel is where psionics became fun and distinct, to the point that it resulted in 5e upcasting.
    • Disciplines as subclasses. This doesn't mean other subclasses can exist (like the Wilder or the Ardent), but much like the Wizard, working each discipline as a subclass makes sense. That'd leave you with the Egoist (psychometabolism), Kineticist (psychokinesis), Nomad (psychoportation), Seer (clairsentience), Shaper (metacreativity) and Telepath (telepathy). The Wilder could be added later on, as a "discipline" of its own. This could give you an idea on how to work additional subclasses, while giving you a lot to play with in the first place.
    • "Casting" stat based on discipline. This I feel would be unpopular, but hearkening to the original, it'd be fun to have each discipline work with one of the six ability scores - including the physical ones. So Psychokinesis would work with Strength (incidentally making you a good gish), Egoist would work with Constitution (and make you super meaty and hard to beat) and Nomad would work with Discipline (making you freakishly fast). That way, you could have the feel of a Psychic Warrior or Soulknife, while allowing those to be subclasses for OTHER classes, giving those a taste of psionics.
    • Sciences. These are the higher-level (read: 6th and above) powers, which would work as Mystic Arcanas instead. What makes them distinct is that each power has a "lingering effect" benefit*, which lasts until you use another science or complete a long rest. Ideally, this is a concentration-less buff that ties to the power you just manifested.
    • Metapsionics. 3.5 had it good with making equivalents to metamagic, with the caveat that they cost power points. I feel this could be in as well, complete with the point cost - so, you could either augment a power to maximum or augment it slightly + a metapsionic effect, but not both. Incidentally, this allows playing with power points a bit more rewarding.


    This vision leaves the Psion as a class that specializes in going nova in a very brutal way, while being incredibly flexible. Of course, by the way it's built, some powers will be infinitely more useful than others (the Psychokinesis elemental power, for example, will end up as if you had learned five to eight spells at once, modified only by the amount of power points you spend), and due to that there'll be a chance to really exploit the system. It'd need stress tests to refine the class to act on such exploits, but if done correctly, the Psion (or Psionicist, or whatever you wish to call it) would be a very interesting way to play - complex, but (hopefully) not confusing.

    *: This one could use some explanation. For example, take...hmm...Phasing, from the Psychoportation discipline. In essence, while the Science is in effect, you can walk through walls, gain resistance to all damage except force powers, and disadvantage on attack rolls made against you, with the usual caveats (end on a solid space, take 5 points of damage). When the effect of the science ends, you get a "lingering effect" - your body remains slightly translucent and forming a blur, allowing you to impose disadvantage on attack rolls made against you, until you use another Science or finish a long rest. The reason why this happens is because, when you use a Science power, you're essentially attuning to what that power represents, but you can only attune to one such effect at a time. So, if you were to change it to, say...Fission (a Psychometabolism discipline that allows you to split into two, giving you an extra action, bonus action and reaction with that other self but your current HP are halved and split, you share your power point pool, and any items that require activation are consumed whenever one of the two uses them), you'd lose the ability to impose disadvantage on attack rolls, but you get a limited extra action that you can use only to Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Hide, Use a Power (Talent only) or Attack (1 attack only), representing the lingering effect of having to split your mind to act as two. Yes, these are insane powers, but Sciences can only be used once per long rest AND still require using power points (in order to augment or use metapsionics on them). The lingering effect is there to make Sciences distinct from higher-level spells or Mystic Arcanas.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    I am looking back on it and the mystic provides a lot of what we seem to want. lots of points of customization like the warlock, int based, uses power points, provides a unique play style. I doesn't look like it has a telekinesis order, which feels like a strange thing to leave but that is an easy fix.
    What criticisms would we have if Wotc just used the Mystic for this?
    Personally, my big one would be that they're trying to cram too much into it. Ideally, the main psionic class should be a devoted caster-type - take Psychic Warrior/"Immortal" and Soulknife out and make them subclasses of either their own, more martial psionic class, or existing classes that they fit into. Also, not sure why Wu Jen is there at all, when that was an arcane caster before and had nothing to do with psionics.

    Beyond that, of course there's balance issues to work out. And, honestly, while it's a comparably minor gripe, the name. "Mystic" just sounds like a generic spellcaster class. The name of the psionic class should sound like it belongs to a psychic class - Psion, Psionicist, maybe Mentalist or Telepath, something to that effect.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Properly bringing Psionics into 5e will be more than just a class and a spell list comprising 12 pages out of a 300 page book like the Artificer was, it is its own system like Blade Magic and Incarnum and can't be done justice without at least a whole chapter to itself. What I'd like to see is something like:

    Fighter: Psychic Warrior (Psychokinesis & Psychometabolism disciplines/powers)
    Monk: Way of Contemplation (Clairsentience & Telepathy disciplines/powers)
    Rogue: Soulknife (Metacreativity & Psychoportation disciplines/powers)
    Sorcererous Origin: Wilder (Psychokinesis, Psychometabolism & Psychoportation disciplines/powers)
    Wizard: School of Psionics (Clairsentience, Metacreativity & Telepathy disciplines/powers)

    Then of course the Mystic as a standalone class, WIS based with preferably three subclasses not focusing on disciplines.

    The actual powers themselves are a little more mutable for me, what I reckon would work best would be Psi points that are recovered on a short rest, Powers that are at-will and produce enhanced effects when you pump Psi points into them and talents (or use-thesaurus-here) which are passive benefits that also offer additions with Psi points invested (and presumably interact with psychic foci in some way).

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    The actual powers themselves are a little more mutable for me, what I reckon would work best would be Psi points that are recovered on a short rest, Powers that are at-will and produce enhanced effects when you pump Psi points into them and talents (or use-thesaurus-here) which are passive benefits that also offer additions with Psi points invested (and presumably interact with psychic foci in some way).
    I've been spitballing ideas especially considering at-will powers and talents that would provide passive effects with invested power points.

    I'm on phone right now, so I won't get into fine minutiae, but I think, personally, that best way to please most is to make powers similar to 4 Elements Elemental Disciplines:
    Some that essentially let you cast existing spells, some that are different from existing spells, and cost Psi Points in a way similar to Ki, without being interchangeable between the two resources.

    I'd have Psi Points to recover on Long Rest, but those invested on Talents remain only until short rest and are "recovered" after short rest.

    Also, I've been tinkering with the amount of Psi Points based on the spell points. I find it rather silly and arbitrary as-is. For example, what real purpose does it serve to have 1st level power cost 2 psi points, if you have 4 Points in reserve. Why not cost 1p and have 2p in reserve instead.
    I've calculated an amount that has more linear progression. The restrictions of spell points are still in place.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    I think I might have the school of psionics renamed cerebremancy, but that is more of a personal thing I think.
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    The actual powers themselves are a little more mutable for me, what I reckon would work best would be Psi points that are recovered on a short rest, Powers that are at-will and produce enhanced effects when you pump Psi points into them and talents (or use-thesaurus-here) which are passive benefits that also offer additions with Psi points invested (and presumably interact with psychic foci in some way).
    I've been spitballing ideas especially considering at-will powers and talents that would provide passive effects with invested power points.

    I'm on phone right now, so I won't get into fine minutiae, but I think, personally, that best way to please most is to make powers similar to 4 Elements Elemental Disciplines:
    Some that essentially let you cast existing spells, some that are different from existing spells, and cost Psi Points in a way similar to Ki, without being interchangeable between the two resources.

    I'd have Psi Points to recover on Long Rest, but those invested on Talents remain only until short rest and are "recovered" after short rest.

    Also, I've been tinkering with the amount of Psi Points based on the spell points. I find it rather silly and arbitrary as-is. For example, what real purpose does it serve to have 1st level power cost 2 psi points, if you have 4 Points in reserve. Why not cost 1p and have 2p in reserve instead? I get it that at 3rd level and again at 6th and 9th level the costs jump because those are the thresholds for tiers, but seriously, why not cut the crap and enforce more reasonable costs, which would cut down the amount as a whole as well?

    Thus, I've calculated an amount that has more linear progression. The restrictions regarding spell points are still in place, so that's not an issue.

    Regarding tier thresholds I plan to have some other application to make those levels stand out.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-04-12 at 02:26 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    I'm coming in late to this discussion, but I've given some thought to the question of how psionics fits into 5E. It basically breaks down into three general areas.

    First of all, something I've always wanted to stay in the conversation regarding "what is psionics" is the fact that it's been a part of the game for a very, very long time, longer than feats or the Rogue class (they were still called "thief" back then). These things go back to the 1E AD&D books, give or take 40 years or so. Psionics in 1E was a hot mess, and a completely superfluous sub-system that could be randomly applied to any given character based on nothing but a random percentile roll. But there's tradition there, and they WERE a lot of fun. At a minimum, regardless of what elements from the past 40 years we draw inspiration from, 5E psionics should have some degree of call-back to those original rules; in some way, psionics has to include some kind of abilities called "ID Insinuation", "Psychic Crush", "Psionic Blast", "Mind Thrust" and "ego whip". I don't even particularly care what they do, just seeing the original attack modes in print builds a lot of goodwill towards the new system, among people who have nostalgia for the old stuff.

    The 1E concept of psionics as something that anyone can have access to, aside from designated psionic classes, is easy; the psionic feats from the latest UA do a good job of replicating this in a more balanced way than a random roll.

    Something that the 2E psionics handbook introduced was the idea of a power score, where you had to roll against a particular target number for your power to activate. Is that something people would be interested in seeing, as a way to differentiate "psionic' casting from "magic" casting? I don't like it much, as i think it slows down the game to add an additional roll to the combat round, but I think it could be easily introduced into a set of psionic skills/powers/talents/whatever.

    The second thought is around the idea of power points. Psionics has, in just about every iteration, had a point-based resource pool to pull from, and I think that a new iteration of psionics has to include that kind of resource pool. I do love the idea of using the Ki pool that a monk already uses as a base for this, but we should be careful about how it is implemented; there could be some pretty funky implications for multiclassing. The Monk's Ki pool is a short rest refresh; if the psion's Ki pool is built around a long rest refresh, you'll have some weird Coffeelock-type builds, where a psion dips a few levels into Monk to refresh their Ki pool on a short rest and get extra uses of their abilities. Knowing that classes should not be balanced around multiclassing, it's still a consideration...I'd recommend either a short rest refresh of the psion's Ki pool (my preference) or a long-rest refresh of a separate pool not compatible with the monk's Ki.

    My last thought is that, in a lot of ways, the psionics cat is already out of the bag. We have Mind Flayers, Githyanki, Intellect Devourers...lots of psionically-powered and themed elements in the game already. WotC has had a policy of not doing erratas that make major changes to existing printed material. So, how do we incorporate an entirely new system of psionic powers that don't apply to mind flayers or intellect devourers? Part of the question we should be asking, as part of an exercise like this: if the only option available to us is one where psionics are just another flavor of magic, a wizard sublass, etc, because that's the only way we can make it fit with existing material, are we still interested? In other words, if the only kind of psionics we can have in mainstream 5E is a watered down and homogenized version of the psionics of editions past, do we want or need it at all?

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manuel View Post
    Snipped for length
    You raise a very good point and for me the answer is no. If we're just going to end up with a Wizard subclass and a bunch of spells that just don't use components but are otherwise just spells, I'd rather they not bother. A wizard with a psionic school doesn't feel like a Psionicist, it feels like a Wizard with some mental focus, arguably like an Enchanter.

    If they go down that route I'd rather they just introduce a half feat to give access to telepathy and leave the rest out, it isn't good enough.
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    And, honestly, while it's a comparably minor gripe, the name. "Mystic" just sounds like a generic spellcaster class. The name of the psionic class should sound like it belongs to a psychic class - Psion, Psionicist, maybe Mentalist or Telepath, something to that effect.
    Kind of a side-point, but the name is its own bundle of cats. One of the classic complaints of weird mind powers in fantasy is that it's too "sci-fi," but when you look at the content of what the weird mind powers entail, the only thing really sci-fi about it is some of the nomenclature. Psionic is modern. Psychic and Mystic are hokey, which puts them in line for fantasy. It's part of why I try to avoid using "psionic" in discussion. (Psychic is my vote on Base Class name - it shares a root with psionic, sounds like the name of an ESP Wizard, and covers a lot of "mind power" occupations)

    but whatever WotC does, expect the name to be something out of the WotC D&D IP Grab Bag.
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    So I have been reviewing the UA mystic again.

    One thing that I find disappointing, at least on this review is how bland a lot of the abilities are.

    Template X, inflict status Y, Z damage on a failed save type Q... This is OK, and there are some good things there but there is a dearth of unique effects.

    I think that whatever a psionic class does, it is important to have things that are a bit more than just damage and conditions.

    So by this I reference some of the recent spells discussed:

    Command - nice and open ended, some defined effects but goes beyond a condition from the back of the PHB

    Hypnotic pattern - sure it incapacitates but it has a different recovery option than passing a save, fear is a little similar in that it has an extra condition that is just a bit more interesting.

    Spike growth - does damage but depending on what the victim does, more interesting than fireball.

    Dispell magic - a different way to interact with the world.

    Psionics needs to make sure that it gets more fun effects than some of the cookie-cutter effects from the mystic.

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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    So I have been reviewing the UA mystic again.

    One thing that I find disappointing, at least on this review is how bland a lot of the abilities are.

    Template X, inflict status Y, Z damage on a failed save type Q... This is OK, and there are some good things there but there is a dearth of unique effects.

    I think that whatever a psionic class does, it is important to have things that are a bit more than just damage and conditions.

    So by this I reference some of the recent spells discussed:

    Command - nice and open ended, some defined effects but goes beyond a condition from the back of the PHB

    Hypnotic pattern - sure it incapacitates but it has a different recovery option than passing a save, fear is a little similar in that it has an extra condition that is just a bit more interesting.

    Spike growth - does damage but depending on what the victim does, more interesting than fireball.

    Dispell magic - a different way to interact with the world.

    Psionics needs to make sure that it gets more fun effects than some of the cookie-cutter effects from the mystic.
    To provide some counter perspective on that, the Mystic allows you to:

    Create a staircase out of clouds

    Assess an opponent by reading their aura, read their emotional state and other things

    Do damage and reduce speed to 0 on a failed save (Visions of Despair)

    Create a wall that functions on a psychic effect not physical obstruction (Wall of Repulsion)

    Become so small you can pass through 1 inch gaps easily without squeezing (Microscopic Form)

    And other things that aren't specific conditions with damage. If you look at Talents things follow the trend of providing different things, like Blind Spot and Delusion.
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    So between the three psionics UAs which are the most interesting powers/features?

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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    To provide some counter perspective on that, the Mystic allows you to:

    Create a staircase out of clouds

    Assess an opponent by reading their aura, read their emotional state and other things

    Do damage and reduce speed to 0 on a failed save (Visions of Despair)

    Create a wall that functions on a psychic effect not physical obstruction (Wall of Repulsion)

    Become so small you can pass through 1 inch gaps easily without squeezing (Microscopic Form)

    And other things that aren't specific conditions with damage. If you look at Talents things follow the trend of providing different things, like Blind Spot and Delusion.
    Some reasonable points and I guess I should have specified combat roles - the out of combat stuff is actually pretty rich.

    Of the things you noted I would put creating a staircase out of clouds down as out of combat, although it needn't be if the class were to give you good ways to use it in combat.

    Wall of repulsion is the kind of thing that is actually a bit new, is apt and I do like. It is probably my favourite ability in the class - my contention is that there needs to be more things like this (and even more wierd ideally).

    Visions of despair seems to pretty much fit the cookie cutter approach though - save, condition (grappled), damage...

    Microscopic form again seems less useful in combat - although no doubt you can get creative. Stealth is always useful but a bonus to that is... well OK. I guess I should give this a bit more credit?

    It does become hard to pick up as many of these as I would like, whilst keeping any kind of strong theme. I like the disciplines in principal, but in practice most of them maybe give one thing you actually want - maybe two. The UA mystic isn't a total creative disaster - but it isn't the most inspiring content either.

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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    So between the three psionics UAs which are the most interesting powers/features?
    In the first and second UA's (the partial and full Mystic classes), the thing I was most impressed with was the general concept of the disciplines. I liked the framework of the discipline which gave a general ability when you maintained Concentration, and unlocked a menu of additional abilities to spend psi points on while you still maintained concentration. It was thematic, a novel use of the concentration mechanic, and a good fit with the "feel" of psionics. I did not like many of the specific discipline powers, but overall, I liked the idea.

    From the newest UA, I actually really like the new spells, and the "psionic" spell list. I was happy with the soul knife as a rogue subclass.

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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    Some reasonable points and I guess I should have specified combat roles - the out of combat stuff is actually pretty rich.

    Of the things you noted I would put creating a staircase out of clouds down as out of combat, although it needn't be if the class were to give you good ways to use it in combat.

    Wall of repulsion is the kind of thing that is actually a bit new, is apt and I do like. It is probably my favourite ability in the class - my contention is that there needs to be more things like this (and even more wierd ideally).

    Visions of despair seems to pretty much fit the cookie cutter approach though - save, condition (grappled), damage...

    Microscopic form again seems less useful in combat - although no doubt you can get creative. Stealth is always useful but a bonus to that is... well OK. I guess I should give this a bit more credit?

    It does become hard to pick up as many of these as I would like, whilst keeping any kind of strong theme. I like the disciplines in principal, but in practice most of them maybe give one thing you actually want - maybe two. The UA mystic isn't a total creative disaster - but it isn't the most inspiring content either.
    I didn't know you were looking specifically for combat abilities when I made that list, though to address some things that you said:

    Visions of Despair doesn't impose th grappled condition, it reduces speed to zero, I actually chose it because it didn't apply a condition.

    Microscopic form I picked for scouting/stealth, but in combat it would be good if you were going the more caster orientated route, a 10 minute long +5 to AC isn't bad at all considering the ribbons it comes with and you wouldn't be making weapon attacks anyway.

    In terms of interesting combat abilities:

    Acid spray

    Psychic Parry/Psychic Redoubt

    Pretty much everything is in Mantle of Command is interesting and imo interesting fodder for homebrewing a Warlord

    Incite Fury is basically the damage version of Bless, personally I find that neat

    Cloak of Air- Blur but more thematic and frankly better

    Water Whip

    Lightning Leap

    Wrap weapon and armor

    Transposition and baleful transposition (I thinkthe closest we have so far is Scatter and that came in Xanathar's)

    Ethereal Weapon

    I'm not going to go through the whole list in detail as that's quite a lengthy document, but those are some that stand out to me from a quick glance as interesting combat orientated abilities.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    Possibly one way around that is to make a psionics mechanic that's about how you generate various effects, even if the effects themselves are "magical." So a psionic creature doesn't have slots or prepared whatevers, and isn't interacting directly with the weave or whatever else supports the existence of magic. It generates things using psi points or something. But the manifestation of that process is still magical in the sense of the mechanics.

    A big stumbling block is that psionics is either a form of magic or it's not. If it is, then the effects are also magic. If not, then we're moving into more of a science fiction setting which feels outside the core of what D&D is. It also brings up other questions, like why has no one industrialized and automated magic and psionics?
    Lets not confuse magic with spells.
    Psionics = Magic
    Powers != Spells.

    If if something says it impacts a spell, then it doesn't touch Psionics. If something says it impacts magic, then it does touch psionics. That is what Jeremy said.

    I believe psionics
    1) Should be it's own distinct thing. Not a refluff or subclass (though im sure it will be big enough to come with psionic feats, skills, subclasses for other classes and psionic items)...in 3.5 days it would be it's own book
    2) Use spell points (which is a 5e optional rule anyhow)
    3) Be weird
    4) have a bit of focus. In 3.5 your 1st level you had to take 2 disciplines in your specialty and then 1 in any other. So you couldn't be an awakened mind and not take any of those disciplines

    What i am noticing about UA mystic v3: 1) it can do pretty much anything, 2) after level 11, it does them poorly compared to others. level 7+ spells trounce mystics

    5) Mystics must be called Psions and must have an inherent desire to destroy all monks (so people stop thinking Monk = Psion)
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?


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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manuel View Post
    The spells a sorcerer can now spend 10 minutes to have include:
    Charm person
    Comprehend Languages
    Detect Magic
    Sleep

    Crown of Madness
    Detect Thoughts
    Hold Person
    Mind Spike
    See Invisibility
    Mind Spike
    Suggestion

    Catnap
    Clairvoyance
    Enemies Abount
    Tongues

    Charm Monster
    Confusion
    Dominate Beast

    Dominate Person
    Hold Monster
    Synaptic Static

    Mass Suggestion
    True Seeing

    Power Word Pain

    Dominate Monster
    Power Word Stun

    Power Word Kill
    Psychic Scream


    ---------edit so as to not double post


    Well, here's the Dev opinion on if it's magic or not

    Quote Originally Posted by new UA
    Is Psi a Form of Magic?
    Psi is a supernatural power that emanates from the
    mind. Like other forms of supernatural power in D&D, it
    can be used to create magical phenomena, yet it can
    create other sorts of phenomena as well. In the game’s
    rules, only certain supernatural effects are classified as
    magical: magic items, spells, spell attacks, powers fueled
    by spell slots, and any other effect that the rules
    explicitly call magical. This distinction is rarely relevant
    in play, typically coming up only when something like an
    antimagic field shows up.
    From a storytelling standpoint, some supernatural
    effects in D&D weave their power into a formalized
    form—a spell, for instance—that other effects can
    disrupt. In contrast, there are other supernatural effects
    that are so wild, formless, or subtle that it is difficult or
    impossible to disrupt them. In this article, some of the
    psionic powers create what the rules consider to be
    magic and some don’t.
    TL;DR sometimes yes, sometimes no.

    So in the UA you can counterspell/dispel the new spells, but can't dispel effects created with other class features, like telekinesis or telepathic links.
    Last edited by micahaphone; 2020-04-14 at 02:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by micahaphone View Post
    snip
    That was probably the easiest way to do it to please everyone. Overall, I think having the subclasses are a good idea, though the RNG style dice could take some getting used to. I really wish there was a Psion base class, because it doesn’t quite feel right JUST being subclasses.
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    R.I.P ghost wizard, if one day you return to this world may you have the necromancy sub theme you deserved.

    Hm, I like the idea of the wild talent feat, I wish there was some ability for non-humans to have such things at level 1.
    Last edited by Witty Username; 2020-04-14 at 03:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by micahaphone View Post
    Well, here's the Dev opinion on if it's magic or not

    TL;DR sometimes yes, sometimes no.
    The thing is, in 5e, even magic does not always count as such for game purposes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sage Advice Compendium v2.4 p18, Is the breath weapon of a dragon magical?
    You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:
    • the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures
    • the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect
    In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind.
    And while this explanation is a bit comical, I think the new UA does worse with its "supernatural power" that creates "magical phenomena" and "other sorts of phenomena".

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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Huh, well there you go. Looking forward to digging through that UA!

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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    I still haven’t had time to dig into the new UA, but it looks like the idea of a Psychic class is officially out. RIP Mystic.
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    You may want to check out the homebrew forum.

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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    The thing is, in 5e, even magic does not always count as such for game purposes.

    And while this explanation is a bit comical, I think the new UA does worse with its "supernatural power" that creates "magical phenomena" and "other sorts of phenomena".
    I think what they are getting at is Magic as game mechanic and Magic as fantastical things, of which psionics is sometimes the first and always the second. Reads clear as mud though.
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    Whelp, that was a garbage UA. Wizards killed the psionic class. Was it that hard for them to refine mystic? They could have come out with those subclasses (which are fine) and still worked on mystic as base. I won't use psionics, as they are envisioning them, in my games. There is no point to these. They are not even well-fluffed psionic subclasses "ohh, i have psy-locke now"....
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    Default Re: Survey: What can we agree (or disagree) on Psionics?

    I only care about using their powers without relying on a tongue (or any other vocalization organ) nor elaborate limb(s). Thus why I was utterly enraged with the recent UA's Wizard school treatment...

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