Cleave

[paladinn]

Thinking of ways to enhance "mainline" fighters (as opposed to paladins, etc.). One of the concepts I've seen in a number of Classic/OSR and D20 games is "cleave", the ability for a fighter to get an immediate extra attack upon dropping a foe. This also kind of fulfills the purpose of the "mook" rule, where fighters get multiple attacks against creatures of 1HD or less.

Eventually I want to give fighters a straight-up extra attack about 10th level. But in the meantime, this would help fill in the power gap a bit. A few questions come to mind though:

1. Should this be limited to "plain" fighters? I think C&C gives it (or a variation) to rangers as well.

2. When should this become available? I was thinking around 3rd level

3. Should there be limits on how many cleaves you get? The mook rule typically limits you to 1 attack/level

4. I'm also considering adapting the "smash" combat option, where you can add to your damage by taking a penalty to your attack role.

Does anyone allow cleave or smash in their Classic-level games? Any specifics on how it works?

Gratzi!

[thirdkingdom]

I allow fighters and thieves, and classes that use either the thief or fighter attach progression, to Cleave once per HD starting at 1st level. Clerics and classes using the cleric attack progression can do it every other HD, and magic-users can't Cleave. The HD progression is important, because in B/X and similar (I use B/X, or, specifically, Old School Essentials), characters have a maximum of 9 Hit Dice (they stop rolling for hit points after level 9).

So, at level 1 a fighter can Cleave once and at level 9 they can Cleave 9 times. At level 2 a clerica can Cleave once and at level 8 they can do so 4 times. I've found it hasn't unbalanced anything; at high levels fighters should be able to slice through mooks with ease, anyway.

I also give fighters an extra +1 to all damage at levels 1, 5, 9, and 14, as well as the ability to negate a single attack against them once per day.

[paladinn]

Thanks for the input!

So here's my thought.. A single-classed, "basic" fighter around 3rd level gets the ability to cleave.

1. Upon dropping (i.e. reducing to 0 hp) a foe, s/he gets another attack on an adjacent foe.
2. The attacks can continue until missing an attack Or hitting a foe that doesn't drop Or a maximum number of attacks equal to his/her level.
3. Each successive attack is at -1 to hit and damage, cumulative.

I think this accomplishes the objective of "mook fighting", but also sufficiently limits what happens on a fighter's turn.

The one drawback I can think of is, what about archers/marksmen? Not sure if/how this could be tweaked for them.

Further thoughts?

[thirdkingdom]

Thanks for the input!

So here's my thought.. A single-classed, "basic" fighter around 3rd level gets the ability to cleave.

1. Upon dropping (i.e. reducing to 0 hp) a foe, s/he gets another attack on an adjacent foe.
2. The attacks can continue until missing an attack Or hitting a foe that doesn't drop Or a maximum number of attacks equal to his/her level.
3. Each successive attack is at -1 to hit and damage, cumulative.

I think this accomplishes the objective of "mook fighting", but also sufficiently limits what happens on a fighter's turn.

The one drawback I can think of is, what about archers/marksmen? Not sure if/how this could be tweaked for them.

Further thoughts?

I wouldn't apply the cumulative penalty. I'm running a game with a couple of 7th level fighters, and they mostly drop two or three orcs in a row before a) they miss, or b) they don't do enough damage to drop a foe.

And sure, apply it to ranged attacks, too. It doesn't really break anything.

[paladinn]

I wouldn't apply the cumulative penalty. I'm running a game with a couple of 7th level fighters, and they mostly drop two or three orcs in a row before a) they miss, or b) they don't do enough damage to drop a foe.

And sure, apply it to ranged attacks, too. It doesn't really break anything.

But the point of cleave is that it hits someone Adjacent. Missile combat doesn't qualify. I just wonder what I might allow for an "archer"

[thirdkingdom]

But the point of cleave is that it hits someone Adjacent. Missile combat doesn't qualify. I just wonder what I might allow for an "archer"

I think the use of the word "adjacent" is to limit the movement of melee types. A fighter can continue to cleave as long as a) they drop an opponent with the hit, b) they have another "hit" left, and c) there's someone adjacent to them to attack. In other words, melee cleaves can't be used as a means to get extra movement, especially in B/X derived systems, which have very specific rules governing when movement happens in a round and what kinds of movement is allowed once in melee.

I would have no issue with allowing ranged attacks to cleave, as long as they targeted creatures that were adjacent to one another and made sense logistically. Could you cleave with a crossbow? Probably only once or twice. If you've only got one javelin you obviously can't cleave once you've thrown in.

[paladinn]

I think the use of the word "adjacent" is to limit the movement of melee types. A fighter can continue to cleave as long as a) they drop an opponent with the hit, b) they have another "hit" left, and c) there's someone adjacent to them to attack. In other words, melee cleaves can't be used as a means to get extra movement, especially in B/X derived systems, which have very specific rules governing when movement happens in a round and what kinds of movement is allowed once in melee.

I would have no issue with allowing ranged attacks to cleave, as long as they targeted creatures that were adjacent to one another and made sense logistically. Could you cleave with a crossbow? Probably only once or twice. If you've only got one javelin you obviously can't cleave once you've thrown in.

Of course.

Hmm.. need to ponder this. I don't want to make it overly complex. It is an OSR-type game..lol

[Knaight]

A quick and dirty option would be that you can attack a total of your HD of enemy HD, or any one enemy. If you have 9 HD and are fighting 4, 3, and 2 HD enemies you can attack all of them once. If you want to hit the 11 HD creature instead you hit only them.

[paladinn]

Thanks for all the input, guys! I'll take this back to my OSR Hybrid thread. Definitely has helped!