Odd gaming research / invention

[Quertus]

So, I suddenly find myself needing a) the MtG color opposites (I'm pretty sure Order/Chaos and Life/Death are two of the five). --and-- needing animals to represent the various WoD splats (bats for Vampires and wolves for Garou are pretty obvious, but I'm struggling with the rest).

If anyone wants to help me with those, that's awesome, but the *actual* reason I created this thread was because I'm sure that there are lots more interesting stories out there, of spontaneous gaming-related (gaming-induced?) research. And that sounded fun.

So, whatcha got? Fill this thread with humorous stories of the things you found yourself wanting to know, because of a game.

[False God]

MTG has allied/opposed colours, as a 5 color system, there is no direct opposite. Typically the "ally" colors are the colors immediately adjacent, so for white that would be green and blue. And the "enemy colors" are the remaining two (red and black).

It's not perfect but: https://miro.medium.com/max/3998/1*s...7l9NzthoQg.png
but I think it being a PNG it won't show on here, weird.
There are also 30-colour combos, both of enemy colors (white, green, blue) and enemy colors (white, black, red), and the cards give you sort of an idea of what those color combos represent.

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Personally I've done more research on IRL cultures and civilizations than I did throughout my entire schooling and higher education (and I'm a political scientist)! I'm not sure if that's funny persay. I've also done a ridiculous amount of reading on fantasy cultures and lore because of a game.

[Quertus]

MTG has allied/opposed colours, as a 5 color system, there is no direct opposite. Typically the "ally" colors are the colors immediately adjacent, so for white that would be green and blue. And the "enemy colors" are the remaining two (red and black).

It's not perfect but: https://miro.medium.com/max/3998/1*s...7l9NzthoQg.png
but I think it being a PNG it won't show on here, weird.
There are also 30-colour combos, both of enemy colors (white, green, blue) and enemy colors (white, black, red), and the cards give you sort of an idea of what those color combos represent.

Ah, sorry. That bit could have been clearer. Let me try again.

So, there are 5 sets of "enemy colors"; at some point, iirc, WotC have a description the colors based on making those enemy colors actually opposites. So, maybe Red-White enmity was defined by an order/chaos dichotomy; maybe Green-Black enmity as a life/death dichotomy. But I'm drawing a blank on what the others might be, and my Google searches aren't helping.

So, each color got 2 "domains", Which were clearly created as opposed pairs. Red would have one anti-white and one anti-blue pillar, Green would have one anti-blue and one anti-black, etc.

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Personally I've done more research on IRL cultures and civilizations than I did throughout my entire schooling and higher education (and I'm a political scientist)! I'm not sure if that's funny persay. I've also done a ridiculous amount of reading on fantasy cultures and lore because of a game.

Hmmm… I wonder if I've written more code to handle RPGs than I did while in college…

[lightningcat]

General animals, or MtG card types to represent the WoD splats?

But here are two more pictures describing the consepts behind the colors. Each of the three does thing slightly different, but each is correct in its own way.
https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com...6418146937.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8e/ff/e3/8...lor-theory.jpg
With more descriptive terms, you might find the opposites you are looking for.

Personally I've done more research on IRL cultures and civilizations than I did throughout my entire schooling and higher education (and I'm a political scientist)! I'm not sure if that's funny persay. I've also done a ridiculous amount of reading on fantasy cultures and lore because of a game.

That is fairly common. I do not want to know the amount of research rabbit holes I have gone down for a idea I wanted to use in a game. Or worse, the ones that did't get used at all. I have several research papers saved because I might use something out of them.

[Telok]

For a Traveller game I once made an acceleration/distance -> time chart for accelerations from... 1 to 18 g, I think, and distances from... 1/4th to 40 au, if I remember correctly. It ended up saving significant time and brain work in game.

For another game I found as many different spellcasting/psycher warp effects form all the warhammer games, collated them into five tables of ascending "you're screwed"-ness and wrote a program to automate the rolls. Because I have a player who can't restrain themselves and being limited to about 20 different effects was getting repetitive.

I have not and should not do a deep dive into medieval alchemy to justify really nasty (and ofter RL) chemical weapons in D&D games for things like making illusions of "a sealed barrel made of X, containing Y" and then turning it real.

[DeTess]

This article goes a bit more in-depth on the colors and enmities of the MTG color pie: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...hts-2016-11-14

As for my own research induced by gaming, I guess I once wrote a fairly basic program to do some basic patched-conics orbital transfer calculations to get my numbers right for a fairly hard Sci-fi one-shot. Technically that wasn't research I did for a ttrpg as that's also pretty much the subject of my studies, but it was still a fun application XD.

[Berenger]

needing animals to represent the various WoD splats

Vampire: bat.
Werewolf: wolf.
Mage: owl or raven.
Promethean: a taxidermied pet.
Changeling: butterfly emerging from larva.
Hunter: mongoose or german shepherd.
Geist: moth, with a skull motif.
Mummy: scarab or jackal.
Demon: horned lizard or thorny devil.

[lightningcat]

Vampire: bat.
Werewolf: wolf.
Mage: owl or raven.
Promethean: a taxidermied pet.
Changeling: butterfly emerging from larva.
Hunter: mongoose or german shepherd.
Geist: moth, with a skull motif.
Mummy: scarab or jackal.
Demon: horned lizard or thorny devil.

For Changling, I think you mean "from a cocoon" not "from a larva." Which would absolutely apply to Dreaming, but not so much Lost, maybe faral cats instead. As your list seems to be more Chronicles of Darkness than World of Darkness.
Mongoose would fit Vigil rather well, and German Shepard fits Reckening.
The death head moth fits both Sin Eaters and Wraiths.
I would go with snakes for Demon: the Fallen, or Raccons for Demon: the Descent.

[Pauly]

Vampire: bat.
Werewolf: wolf.
Mage: owl or raven.
Promethean: a taxidermied pet.
Changeling: butterfly emerging from larva.
Hunter: mongoose or german shepherd.
Geist: moth, with a skull motif.
Mummy: scarab or jackal.
Demon: horned lizard or thorny devil.

Goats are often associated with demons. The horns, cloven hoofs and tails.
For the changeling, I think a cuckoo may be more fitting.

[SunderedWorldDM]

I just recently had to look research Woodstock '99 for my Doctor Who RPG campaign, and now I have to look up pirates for my new 5e game. It's not quite as much whiplash as I expected!

[Lord Raziere]

I once had to look up how black holes decay to counter someone's attack in my DBZ roleplay. it involved a technique to conjure matter, quantum physics involving the fact that subatomic particles randomly appear and disappear, and the character improvising that technique on the fly to create this weird lattice of subatomic particles around the black hole to basically make the decay happen all at once, but it worked.

singularities were not allowed in the roleplay after that.

[Rater202]

I've spent a lot of time researching stuff on the Naruto wiki in the last month or so because of a game I joined.

[Berenger]

For Changling, I think you mean "from a cocoon" not "from a larva."

Yes, that's what I meant.

As your list seems to be more Chronicles of Darkness than World of Darkness.

Maybe? I'm not that well versed in White Wolf canon outside of Vampire, Scion and a bit of Werewolf.

[EGplay]

So, I suddenly find myself needing a) the MtG color opposites (I'm pretty sure Order/Chaos and Life/Death are two of the five).

Red - White - > Chaos - Order
Red - Blue - > Emotion - Logic
Green - Black - > Life - Death
Green - Blue - > Wisdom - Intellect
White - Black - > Good - Evil

Now of course, them being the Mages by the Seaside (as well as reality being too messy), consistency in this is somewhat lacking, and subject to change over time.

As far as research goes, I never looked this much into dinosaurs and related topics then I do now that I have a 3 year old son :-).

Edit: Intuition - Reasoning is probably better for Green - Blue

[Cluedrew]

So, I suddenly find myself needing a) the MtG color opposites […] but the *actual* reason I created this thread was because I'm sure that there are lots more interesting stories out there, of spontaneous gaming-related (gaming-induced?) research. And that sounded fun.

Oddly enough my craziest story about game or fiction related research actually came from a discussion about five colour morality. It was particularly focused on the question is white good and black evil, but people set me a lot of sets of five links. Just reading all the interviews with personifications of the colours, the character bios from different settings and essays on theme took me a full day. And then I posted my results which is basically all five colours are evil if you don't temper them with the others.

This picture I feel sums up the feel very well although I take issue with some of the labels, particularly black's which I feel has some real value judgement in its wording. I think what each colour wants (order, knowledge, power, freedom or harmony) is a better one line description. Of course the full description is notable longer than that.

https://miro.medium.com/max/3998/1*s...7l9NzthoQg.png

[DeTess]

Green - Black - > Life - Death
White - Black - > Good - Evil

I don't quite agree with these two. Green is very much about the natural world, and death is part of that. Green however is also very much about 'knowing your place' in the grand scheme of things, while black is very much about doing whatever you feel is best for yourself, including breaking free of whatever expectations your 'role' places on you. The green-black conflict is more about 'sticking to traditions' vs 'forging your own path'.

The same goes for the conflict between white and black. White is not the color of 'good'. White is the color of community and putting the good of the many before the few. This can be a good thing if its presented as the few willingly making sacrifices to save the many, but it is a very bad thing if its the many demanding sacrifices of the few, especially if the few are a minority of some sort. Black, meanwhile, is the color of valuing what is good for you over what is good for everyone. This can be an evil thing, but it doesn't have to be. So to summarize, the black-white conflict is the conflict of selfishness vs. selflessness.

[EGplay]

The same goes for the conflict between white and black. White is not the color of 'good'. White is the color of community and putting the good of the many before the few.

That would be Whites' Order vs Reds' Chaos. The part of White that opposes Black aspires, or at least pretends, to be the 'good' to Blacks' 'Evil'.
That being said, I agree Selfless - Selfish works better.

As to Green vs Black: way back in the day Green was (mostly) about putting energy into the system and Black (mostly) about taking it out, hence my antiquated dichtonomy.
Revision is in order though, how about Natural - Artifice?

[Cluedrew]

That being said, I agree Selfless - Selfish works better.

Isn't that just good vs. evil by another name?

Either way I think a better way to look at it is more collectivism vs. individualism if you really want to strip out the moral implications. Which I think a lot of people making the cards actually don't, black isn't supposed to be evil but black decks seem to have more evil stuff in them. But a good black character would still probably try to save the world themselves (and might go to great ugly lengths to do so) as opposed to rallying support.

Revision is in order though, how about Natural - Artifice?

The diagram had nature vs. nurture. I like that one, there are a couple labels I don't like but that one is pretty good. I'm not sure why that scale is called truth-seeking, identity sounds like the difference.

[Lord Raziere]

Isn't that just good vs. evil by another name?

I mean I wouldn't say so, people think they are being selfless while inflicting suffering on others all the time, call it what you want, there are desires that aren't for personal gain that can be bad. while tons of good people just want to get a paycheck so they can eat and go home. I mean you can make the argument of like that its selfish to be a control freak about the world because its thinking only you know whats right and selfless, but thats kind of a stretch to me, seems like its just avoiding acknowledging that the concept of selflessness is not free from flaw or misuse.

Edit: but then again, to assume Black Mana sees anything in terms of "good" or "evil" or other simple dichotomies in general is ascribe way too much White traits to it. its more accurate to say White cares more about changing the world around it, and black cares more about changing themselves. White sees the world as something to be worked so that everyone benefits and thus creates various systems to sort this and that into easily defined categories for its purposes, Black sees it as environment to survive in and come out on top and rather instead of seeing the world in black and white or figuring out some similar method of sorting, they simply embrace the fact that life is full of greys and uncertainties and that their own viewpoint is as subjective as everyone elses. they don't see their actions as evil or good, because one can ask the question if anyone is really evil or good in a complex reality full of factors and uncertainty where your unfairly shoved into it by circumstances beyond your control in an environment you didn't choose, where much of society is arbitrary or hypocritical, so if the entire world is hypocritical, inconsistent, unclear, with morality being so hard to figure out, the circumstances so designed to benefit only a few, with such ideas like "selflessness" or "good" bandied about with few ever actually achieving what people think those are, and its uncertain whether you yourself can ever be truly good or evil in your actions.....

well why should Black Mana even bother considering White's ideas? world's unfair, thats just the way it is, and to try and simplify it or make it fair is a fools errand to black mana. far more logical to figure out how to make the world's unfairness work for you so that you can at least be happy amid everything else being unfair. the obsession over whether Black is "evil" or not, is a White mana problem. To Black Mana, White Mana is getting worked up over stupid nonsense when there is a real world here that doesn't care about morality or order except as deceptions to benefit the powerful and corrupt, and sees no reason why they shouldn't kill the powerful and corrupt and take that power for themselves, White says there is no difference between the guy and the previous ones in power, Black counters that the difference is that "its ME thats powerful and probably corrupt rather than the previous guys when I used to be less powerful and less happy, so it makes a big difference to me. now I have all the money/power/whatever to do what I want, and if someone else wants to get their time in the sun, they can get it over my dead corpse just like I did over theirs"

is that evil from a white mana perspective? probably. but Black Mana represents a viewpoint that thinks the whole concept of simple dichotomies one can use to sort people into "good/bad" is nonsense and that life is more difficult than that, and that thus, good/evil doesn't mean anything.

[lightningcat]

Black/White --- Teamwork/Betrayal
--- Community/Criminality

[Satinavian]

Isn't that just good vs. evil by another name?

Either way I think a better way to look at it is more collectivism vs. individualism if you really want to strip out the moral implications. Which I think a lot of people making the cards actually don't, black isn't supposed to be evil but black decks seem to have more evil stuff in them. But a good black character would still probably try to save the world themselves (and might go to great ugly lengths to do so) as opposed to rallying support.

The diagram had nature vs. nurture. I like that one, there are a couple labels I don't like but that one is pretty good. I'm not sure why that scale is called truth-seeking, identity sounds like the difference.

They explicitely stated that they don't want Black to be evil. But other markers often used for Black like ambition or decay have not exactly nice connotations either so the popular perception is still a pretty evil ones. And linking creature types like demoms nearly exclusively to black does not help either.

But yes, collectivism vs. indivudualism is probably way closer to what they actually want.

[EGplay]

Isn't that just good vs. evil by another name?

Either way I think a better way to look at it is more collectivism vs. individualism if you really want to strip out the moral implications. Which I think a lot of people making the cards actually don't, black isn't supposed to be evil but black decks seem to have more evil stuff in them. But a good black character would still probably try to save the world themselves (and might go to great ugly lengths to do so) as opposed to rallying support.

Could be, I haven't seen anything recent so I couldn't tell whether White is more about selflessness or community. They always presented it as selflessness though.

The diagram had nature vs. nurture. I like that one, there are a couple labels I don't like but that one is pretty good.

I don't know, nurture seems... odd for Black to me. The aspects of nurture that could apply (purposely effecting certain results) are also a form of artifice, and that word doesn't come with... ill-fitting? connotations.


But more importantly, how would I have known how cool dunkleosteus and hatzegopteryx were if I hadn't stumbled onto them researching answers to a 3jr olds' questions about dinosaurs? ('tops' is his favorite :-))

[Cluedrew]

I mean I wouldn't say so, people think they are being selfless while inflicting suffering on others all the time, call it what you want, there are desires that aren't for personal gain that can be bad.

Yes but desires that are for other people have a much harder time of being evil (still can be is they don't work intended of its for the sake of a different small group). And pure selfishness is evil the moment it is relevant. Looking after yourself is fine, but looking after yourself at the expense of everything else is almost the hallmark of a villain. As are things like denying good and evil exist.

So basically although I agree with you that the philosophy of black isn't evil I think your explanation about why it isn't let some pieces of a black villain's justification creep in. A good (morally, not pure) black's response to unfairness is not to take advantage of it but instead (as an example, there are other options) to equip people for it. The pragmatic instructor to blue's academic.

And that is as deep as I can go in the time I have available.

To Satinavian: Sounds right, as much as the deeper philosophies are all supposed to be equal I think they wanted a villain faction.

I don't know, nurture seems... odd for Black to me. The aspects of nurture that could apply (purposely effecting certain results) are also a form of artifice, and that word doesn't come with... ill-fitting? connotations.

Woops! I thought we were talking about green-blue. The diagram I was referring to has preservation vs. exploitation there. That also has a kind of value judgement to it, but black definitely has a "nothing is sacred" aspect to it.

[Quertus]

Wow. OK, let me try to catch up.

First off, thanks for all the stories. They've definitely been fun to read (and given me a few ideas). Keep em coming!

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General animals to resent WoD spats is what I was looking for, @lightningcat. But feel free to give us all a laugh if you've got humorous alternate answers. So far, we have…

Vampire: bat.
Werewolf: wolf.
Mage: owl or raven.
Promethean: a taxidermied pet.
Changeling: butterfly emerging from cocoon, Feral cats.
Hunter: mongoose or german shepherd.
Geist (is this Wraith?): moth, with a skull motif.
Mummy: scarab or jackal.
Demon: horned lizard, thorny devil, snake, raccoon, goat

I… had completely forgotten about Promethean. But the taxidermy idea made me laugh.

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For MtG, we've got…

Red - White - >

Chaos - Order

Red - Blue - >

Emotion - Logic

Green - Black - >

Life - Death
'sticking to traditions' vs 'forging your own path'.
Giving - Taking

Green - Blue - >

Wisdom - Intellect
Intuition - Reasoning
Fate/Destiny - self-determination
Nature - Nurture

White - Black - >

Good - Evil
selfishness vs. selflessness
collectivism vs. indivudualism

If I remember correctly, the color opposition chart / definition / whatever I'm remembering came out before 3e, so… in the '90s? As you can tell from my expectation of "Life - Death", my expectations are a bit out of date.

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Sorry if I missed something from either list - I was skimming quickly to find things after reading the thread, and it feels like I missed some things.

[EGplay]

What you also could do is have the combination of the opposing colours be that colours' antithesis.

Green for instance would not so much oppose either Black or Blue, but a Blue/Black amalgam for siphoning energy into wholly independent systems. So Nature vs Technology?

Is al lot and messy work to do for all five, though.

[RazorChain]

MTG has allied/opposed colours, as a 5 color system, there is no direct opposite. Typically the "ally" colors are the colors immediately adjacent, so for white that would be green and blue. And the "enemy colors" are the remaining two (red and black).

It's not perfect but: https://miro.medium.com/max/3998/1*s...7l9NzthoQg.png
but I think it being a PNG it won't show on here, weird.
There are also 30-colour combos, both of enemy colors (white, green, blue) and enemy colors (white, black, red), and the cards give you sort of an idea of what those color combos represent.

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Personally I've done more research on IRL cultures and civilizations than I did throughout my entire schooling and higher education (and I'm a political scientist)! I'm not sure if that's funny persay. I've also done a ridiculous amount of reading on fantasy cultures and lore because of a game.

That just looks like the Chinese 5 elements system or Wuxing. Like Metal destroys Wood, Wood destroys Earth, Earth destroys Water, Water destroys Fire and Fire destroys Metal

[lightningcat]

Blue is often represtative of technology in MtG. So blue=tech vs green=nature is a common oppositional pairing in the game.
Black=Corruption vs white=Purity is another common one.
Red=violence vs white=pacifism

Geist is the CoD counterpart to Wraith, and they have some similarities, but more differences. Wraiths are ghosts, sometimes they may get back into the world of the living for Crow-like revenge rampages, but normally they stick to the underworld.
Sineaters are people that died, and then made a deal with a Geist (a ghost/spirit/thing) to be not dead, but the Geist is now with them.

[Devils_Advocate]

I found an article on the conflicts between the Colors.


White vs. Black is "moral vs. immoral" in the sense of moralistic vs. amoral, which is not necessarily the same as good behavior vs. bad behavior. Black gets the stereotypical "evil" stuff like demons and undead because Black doesn't worry about whether the means to its ends are "ethical". But that's an "evil is Black" thing more than a "Black is evil" thing, if you see the distinction.

(When Authority comes calling, does Black defiantly resist restrictions on its actions, even to the detriment of its power (like Red)? Or does Black instead embrace the cold pragmatism of long-term planning (like Blue)? I think that the main answer is that pure Black prefers not to pre-commit to either of those approaches. It's Always Nice To Keep Your Options Open^TM.)

In practice, a "good vs. evil" conflict between White and Black, in nearly any sense of "good" and "evil", will probably see White on the good side and Black on the evil side. Black, being amoral, doesn't do things because they're "right". But sometimes the self-serving option is, by coincidence, globally better than the "virtuous" one.


White vs. Red is "order vs. chaos" in the political, "security vs. freedom" sense, i.e. authoritarian vs. libertarian (at the extremes, fascist vs. anarchist).


Blue vs. Red can be spun as reason vs. emotion, but, well... that's a classic false dichotomy. There's no inherent conflict there. But then that's probably true of a lot of "philosophical conflicts" when it comes down to it.

I am the left brain, I am the left brain
I work really hard 'til my inevitable death brain
You got a job to do, you better do it right
And the right way is with the left brain's might

I think that where they really oppose each other is planning vs. impulse (delayed response vs. immediate response).


Green vs. Blue is of course natural vs. artificial and also harmony vs. discipline.


I guess that Green vs. Black is accepting vs. changing: letting the state of the world determine your behavior vs. trying to have your behavior determine what the world is like.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

[Lord Raziere]

They explicitely stated that they don't want Black to be evil. But other markers often used for Black like ambition or decay have not exactly nice connotations either so the popular perception is still a pretty evil ones. And linking creature types like demons nearly exclusively to black does not help either.

But yes, collectivism vs. indivudualism is probably way closer to what they actually want.

I wouldn't say ambition is negative technically. a hero needs power to fight evil as much as the villain needs power to do it, and saving the world is just as an ambitious goal as conquering it. many character grow in power as a result of their quest and some even set out to get stronger for their goals. not everyone is lucky as say, Superman getting their power handed to them by birthright without any effort on their own part.

as for decay, that depends on what decay is happening to. decay happening to people who are evil? is good for you, that means they are less strong and cannot do evil as well.

while demons come from the word daemon, which are just lesser spirits rather than inherently evil connotations the word has today.

also I imagine a black mana person would argue strongly for subjective morality and point to how cultural perceptions of evil shift over time, vary by place to place, and that when you really think about it, culture in general is nonsense based on random historic agglomeration, so really why care about culture says about "evil" or "good" anyways? its all just elaborate nonsense to keep people from rocking the boat, so as long as you don't do that, you don't have to care.

its just that....when you be an individual over the collective, that gets demonized. To white mana you either fit in or you stick out, and sticking out is bad. so all the things that stick out get sorted into one category, in a sort of anti-collective White Mana likes to make to blame for white mana's problems. so the most extreme individuals get lumped in with the less extreme ones.

of course, magic the gathering has the unfortunate tendency to use the most extreme versions of all their colors in near cartoonish ways without any moderation to maintain a certain identity, so.....unfortunately, we're not going to get a moderate black mana hero any time soon, or a red mana hero who doesn't rage/blow up at everything.

[Devils_Advocate]

I found a link to an older article that's more succinct and gives three bullet points per pairing.