Exalted to M&M- Relative Power Levels

[Grod_The_Giant]

I am, for perhaps the first time in my GMing career, admitting defeat. Exalted 3e has broken me. Running a weekly game for a full-sized party was too much, and as the Charms added up my players were also starting to get overwhelmed. So we're making the switch to a high-power system that I do know how to work, Mutants and Masterminds. I've got a good handle on how I'm going to deal with anima (Complications), Caste powers, stuff like that-- but I'd appreciate some help from more experienced Exalts nailing down power levels for various sorts of enemies.

The players, Essence 2 Solars with ~80 xp, have been converted to Power Level 8 characters. That gives us a starting point. (For those unfamiliar, M&M's PL mechanic is a lot closer to Essence Level in Exalted than character level in D&D, and runs from 1 to 20. A typical party can take on an enemy 5 levels higher as a boss battle). Looking at other types of supernatural being...

• Pure mortals can get up to PL 5
• Enlightened or empowered mortals (sorcerers, mutants, Immaculate monks, etc) would be, oh, between PL 4 and 7
• Dragonblooded would be between PL 6 and 8
• Celestial Exalts would be between PL 7 and 10
• Terrestrial gods and first-circle demons would be between PL 6 and 10
• High-tier gods and second-circle demons would be between PL 10 and 15
• Deathlords would be between PL 12 (Black Heron) and 17 (First and Forsaken Lion)
• The Incarnae and third-circle demons would be around PL 16-20
• Primordials would be PL X (beyond the normal scope of things)

Do those seem reasonable, given the specified range for Solars and their ilk? Am I rating some stuff too highly or too low? Forgetting things?

[GrayDeath]

Preface: My experience with M&M is limited to a few games with 3rd edition, and most of my Exalted experience is NOT with Exalted 3rd Edition.

That out of the way: The Main Problem at converting is the fact that Exalted of ANY type can burst" much much better than comparably powerful M&M Heroes, but once they run out of Essence are effectively just barely superhuman, if at all.
So I would suggest one of the following:

Build MUCH higher on Power Level, but include Essence Costs or all the stuff (Sol Invictus is AT LEAST Power Level 35+ in my guestimate, assuming non perfect build options in M&M^^).
In this case I would personally rate beginning Exalteds between PL 7 (Dragonblooded) and 10 (Celestials), medium Essence ones around 15, and Top Essence but not all the exp they want" Solars around 25.

or

Balance really really carefully and make sure your Players dont mind losing the "Feel" of channeling the Essence of creation.

In that case I`d opt for Starting Solars being around 6-7, mediums around 10, and late Game around 15, but this would require a LOT of fine tuning for them to still feel as powerful yet fit the "usually no ressources spent" System.


I hope this helps.

[Lord Raziere]

I'd just put Terrestrials a PL8 and Celestial Exalts at PL10 for simplicities sake, but what you put down is reasonable as well. if your playing in M&M you probably don't care about how the default system does things with "burst power" anyways, unless you want to adapt Luck-like advantages or hero points into being essence.

higher power enemies should probably be like an Overlord, Sorcerer, Crime Lord, Master of Disguise, Martial Artist and so on, with tons of minions based on connections and the resources they have on hand. Lunars make good Hybrids however, and demons beings from the wyld can fulfill the more exotic type of villains

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd just put Terrestrials a PL8 and Celestial Exalts at PL10 for simplicities sake, but what you put down is reasonable as well. if your playing in M&M you probably don't care about how the default system does things with "burst power" anyways, unless you want to adapt Luck-like advantages or hero points into being essence.

Definitely not. I've never found attrition to be a core part of the Exalted experience. Restraining yourself to keep from glowing, yes, but not rationing your power over the course of the day.

[Lirya]

I think you rate high tier gods and second circle demons as too powerful compared to celestial exalted. While a reasonable (focused on combat, but not super-optimized) dawn probably loses more often than not against the combat focused 2nd circle demon Octavian, it is a close fight that the dawn still has a fair chance of winning. And in everything else an essence 2 solar focused in the subject is probably better than the 2nd circle demon (well Mara has celestial tier sorcery which the solar sorcerer won't get until essence 3, but otherwise the solar has better charms and bigger dice pools for sorcery). I am pretty sure it has been shown that an optimized starting dawn can solo any of the stat blocks published in the core book.

All the free excellencies also mean that even a combat focused dawn is also likely to be equal or better at both talking and thievery (or any other two niches) than a 100% optimized mortal, meaning a more powerful baseline in skills than mutants & masterminds is likely to produce without some tweaks. Similarly the Twilight master craftsman could easily pump out legendary artifacts that nobody in creation can match, while also being superior to any mortal in sorcery and being superior to any 1st circle demon in a combat skill.

Some genre differences obviously make the conversion a bit clunky, as m&m super-strength/super-speed scale in ways exalted 3e just doesn't support. But my impression is that both fluff and mechanics in exalted 3e supports that anything short of 3rd circle demons to unconquered sun tier of creatures would be very careful around a circle of known starting character solars, and not keen on fighting them unless they have a clear tactical advantage (say a wyld hunt, with two talons of terrestials + an army + summons + traps & environment).

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think you rate high tier gods and second circle demons as too powerful compared to celestial exalted. While a reasonable (focused on combat, but not super-optimized) dawn probably loses more often than not against the combat focused 2nd circle demon Octavian, it is a close fight that the dawn still has a fair chance of winning. And in everything else an essence 2 solar focused in the subject is probably better than the 2nd circle demon (well Mara has celestial tier sorcery which the solar sorcerer won't get until essence 3, but otherwise the solar has better charms and bigger dice pools for sorcery). I am pretty sure it has been shown that an optimized starting dawn can solo any of the stat blocks published in the core book.

All the free excellencies also mean that even a combat focused dawn is also likely to be equal or better at both talking and thievery (or any other two niches) than a 100% optimized mortal, meaning a more powerful baseline in skills than mutants & masterminds is likely to produce without some tweaks. Similarly the Twilight master craftsman could easily pump out legendary artifacts that nobody in creation can match, while also being superior to any mortal in sorcery and being superior to any 1st circle demon in a combat skill.

Some genre differences obviously make the conversion a bit clunky, as m&m super-strength/super-speed scale in ways exalted 3e just doesn't support. But my impression is that both fluff and mechanics in exalted 3e supports that anything short of 3rd circle demons to unconquered sun tier of creatures would be very careful around a circle of known starting character solars, and not keen on fighting them unless they have a clear tactical advantage (say a wyld hunt, with two talons of terrestials + an army + summons + traps & environment).

I'm not particularly interested in mapping out the in-practice power levels of Ex3, as much as the theoretical, in-universe power levels. When you actually look at mechanics, yeah, it's basically impossible to challenge a group of Solars who've done more than dabble in combat. But part of the point of the system change is that I can ignore the "well actually, when you look at the rules" logic of the game and focus on the mythology of the setting-- Solars as incredibly powerful heroes who deal with foes a D&D character could only dream of facing.

(For the skill baseline, I'm capping everyone who's not a Solar at 5+PL total modifier, giving Solars who invest a clear edge over everyone else)

[Lirya]

While not very useful, the theoretical in-universe power levels are mostly what you as gm decide.

My impression would be that an essence 1 solar compared to a first circle demon would generally be of a higher power level unless comparing the demon's strength to the solar's weakness. An essence 3 solar compared to a second circle demon would be very slightly in the demon's favor when comparing strength to strength (fluff wise Octavian seems to be the top of 2nd circle demons combat wise, and adorns himself with the skull of a solar he has killed. So I think it is also appropriate for a twilight summoning him to be dealing with forces they cannot control).

When comparing essence 5 solars to 3rd circle demons (primordials), the main issue is that the demon is more of a force of nature instead of a creature making it more difficult to interact with. Meanwhile the primordials will find the solars near impossible to deal with because they can't wield a concentrated power capable of dealing with them (the primordial disintegrates the island the solars are on, the zenith ignores all damage, the night dodges it, the twilight is Elsewhere, and the dawn parries it on behalf of both himself and the eclipse). Basically, the backstory implies that the battle was impossible for the exalted, but that the solars caused them to win anyway.

I think my main change to your power ranking would be to expand the range of celestial exalted upward, and nerf all the demons/gods downward a bit, so top celestials are equal/slightly above 2nd circle demons/high tier gods. The peak of any creatures with stat should be within what a full circle of solars using all their resources can deal with. Anything beyond that would be too intangible to fight directly.