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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Hello all, I am wondering how you all feel about a warlock ignoring Eldritch Blast and its related invocations in favor of Sacred Flame? I think you would need something like Evoker Wizard 6, to make the cantrip more reliable and to broaden your spell slot use but this seems like a rather heavy investment for a minor buff, although the sheer spell versatality of an evoker is nothing to ignore.

    I assume that a Cleric or sorcerer multi-class might also have some good benefits perhaps focusing more on the healing elements of the sub-class?

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    So here's the thing: Eldritch Blast should have been a class feature, not a Cantrip. That much being said, Tiefling Warlock 6/Sorcerer 14 (specifically Red/Gold Draconic bloodline) can work. You're more focused on fire, but Celestial 6 gives you +Cha to Radiant and Fire. Combine this with Draconic doing the same for fire, Flames of Phelthegos for Reroll 1s for Damage, and Elemental Adept for ignore resistance, you do pretty solid damage overall. Sacred Flame and Firebolt suddenly become pretty hot as Cantrips (Firebolt suddenly does scaling d10+10 reroll 1s ignore resistance, and Sacred Flame does scaling d8+5). I mean, that's pretty solid tbh.

    This doesn't include Fireball, Scorching Ray, Flame Strike, Flaming Sphere, Guiding Bolt, etc. This can be a serious hoot to play. I'd start with a level of Sorcerer, flip to Warlock 6, then finish with Sorcerer.
    Last edited by Tokuhara; 2020-04-05 at 06:37 AM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Eh, it’s a free cantrip, and works great when you come across a heavily-armored enemy, who may have a high AC, but low Dex save.

    Is it great? No. But it gives you a nice alternative to use at certain times.

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citadel97501 View Post
    Hello all, I am wondering how you all feel about a warlock ignoring Eldritch Blast and its related invocations in favor of Sacred Flame? I think you would need something like Evoker Wizard 6, to make the cantrip more reliable and to broaden your spell slot use but this seems like a rather heavy investment for a minor buff, although the sheer spell versatality of an evoker is nothing to ignore.

    I assume that a Cleric or sorcerer multi-class might also have some good benefits perhaps focusing more on the healing elements of the sub-class?
    You never match the basic EB spamming warlock but I think it would do enough damage at-will while also freeing up a lot of invocations for utility.
    I could see some strange pseudo celestrial/chain warlock tank with gift of the ever-living one, tomb of levistus, dwarven fortitude, as a hill dwarf.
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2020-04-05 at 07:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    You never match the basic EB spamming warlock but I think it would do enough damage at-will while also freeing up a lot of invocations for utility.
    I could see some strange pseudo celestrial/chain warlock tank with gift of the ever-living one, tomb of levistus, dwarven fortitude, as a hill dwarf.
    Or you know. Just go wizard!

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by col_impact View Post
    Or you know. Just go wizard!
    How does a wizard get sacred flame?
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    BardGirl

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    If you're a Celestial Tomelock you can take Fire Bolt for a Spell Attack Vs AC that also keys off your Celestial Subclass Ability.

    Shillelagh with Green Flame Blade is another commonly used combination for Celestial Tomelock. GFB is ofc a Warlock Cantrip, not a Tome pick.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    If you are investing in 6 levels of evoker wizard just to get 1/2 damage on save cantrips ... I think that is going a bit far. Especially since all your wizard spells depend on int and the warlock or cleric spells (depending on how you obtained sacred flame) depend on char or wis.

    In addition, if you are just looking for reliable save cantrip damage then an evoker wizard with Toll the Dead does better than most other options since it is on the wizard spell list, does base d12 damage (save for 1/2 at level 6), doesn't need multiclassing or multiple decent stats.

    Trying to combine the celestial level 6 ability which adds cha mod to radiant/fire damage with the level 6 evoker ability doesn't come online until 12th level.

    When it does sacred flame will do 3d8+5 (assuming 20 cha) which is an average of 18.5 ... with save it does 9 damage. This is hardly impressive enough to create a build around. In addition, a celestial warlock can just use agonizing blast which is 3d10+15 = 31.5 damage on average. Yes, it won't do damage if you miss but even hitting with ONE bolt will average 10.5 which is more than sacred flame if they make the save.

    It can be done if you want to build a concept around it but honestly you might be better off reflavoring eldritch blast as bolts from heaven and see if your DM would allow you to switch it to radiant damage from force.

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    So here's the thing: Eldritch Blast should have been a class feature, not a Cantrip. That much being said, Tiefling Warlock 6/Sorcerer 14 (specifically Red/Gold Draconic bloodline) can work. You're more focused on fire, but Celestial 6 gives you +Cha to Radiant and Fire. Combine this with Draconic doing the same for fire, Flames of Phelthegos for Reroll 1s for Damage, and Elemental Adept for ignore resistance, you do pretty solid damage overall. Sacred Flame and Firebolt suddenly become pretty hot as Cantrips (Firebolt suddenly does scaling d10+10 reroll 1s ignore resistance, and Sacred Flame does scaling d8+5). I mean, that's pretty solid tbh.

    This doesn't include Fireball, Scorching Ray, Flame Strike, Flaming Sphere, Guiding Bolt, etc. This can be a serious hoot to play. I'd start with a level of Sorcerer, flip to Warlock 6, then finish with Sorcerer.
    Sacred Flame doesn't deal half and half; it only deals Radiant damage. So it wouldn't be affected by the Draconic Sorcerer's damage boost - only the Celestial Warlock boost. I know you mention it implicitly on a sentence, but the start of your post leads to think the two would combine.

    That said: as a Tomelock, you could snatch Produce Flame and Create Bonfire, which would be affected (in theory) by everything you mentioned. Produce Flame has the benefit of providing light (but with a smaller range and less damage) and Create Bonfire is a spell placed in an area.

    (Minor nitpick: why don't Clerics get a Radiant damage cantrip that hits vs. AC? There's precedent with Lance of Light in 4e - one of the reasons, if not THE reason, they were called "Lazer Clerics" in that edition.)
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    It isn't as easy to do damage with, but it's doable. If you use create bonfire first, then next round use sacred flame you'll keep up on damage, but you need to keep the monster in the square. Flaming sphere and booming blade/warcaster work for keeping the monster in the square. It's more work than EB spam, but more fun.

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Honestly when I played my celestial tome lock I usually only had to use cantrips for clean up or utility. He used magic Stone alot but he was a halfling so he had an affinity for smacking large creatures with rocks.
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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by AttilatheYeon View Post
    It isn't as easy to do damage with, but it's doable. If you use create bonfire first, then next round use sacred flame you'll keep up on damage, but you need to keep the monster in the square. Flaming sphere and booming blade/warcaster work for keeping the monster in the square. It's more work than EB spam, but more fun.
    How does flaming sphere keep a monster in a square? (Also, you'd need a second caster for this, because bonfire and flaming sphere both require Concentration.)

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    How does flaming sphere keep a monster in a square? (Also, you'd need a second caster for this, because bonfire and flaming sphere both require Concentration.)
    The actual combo is:

    Concentrate of Flaming Sphere and, while in melee with an opponent, use Booming Blade. Now the monster has a catch-22: Move, and they take Booming Blade damage; don't move, and you burn from Flaming Sphere
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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    The actual combo is:

    Concentrate of Flaming Sphere and, while in melee with an opponent, use Booming Blade. Now the monster has a catch-22: Move, and they take Booming Blade damage; don't move, and you burn from Flaming Sphere
    I use Mobility feat.

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    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    The actual combo is:

    Concentrate of Flaming Sphere and, while in melee with an opponent, use Booming Blade. Now the monster has a catch-22: Move, and they take Booming Blade damage; don't move, and you burn from Flaming Sphere
    Does booming blade not use Concentration? I don't have the book it's from. But I thought it was like a lot of other "blade" and "strike" spells in that it took Concentration.

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Does booming blade not use Concentration? I don't have the book it's from. But I thought it was like a lot of other "blade" and "strike" spells in that it took Concentration.
    No but honestly that's not a bad way of balancing it....that or add a save to the secondary effect.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by col_impact View Post
    I use Mobility feat.
    Which doesn’t stop you from taking the booming blade damage if you move so... go you?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    No but honestly that's not a bad way of balancing it....that or add a save to the secondary effect.
    That would be stupid. Concentration is used for an ongoing effect and would be crap if it required concentration. It works fine as is

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    That would be stupid. Concentration is used for an ongoing effect and would be crap if it required concentration. It works fine as is
    It has an ongoing effect. The option on how balanced anything from SCAG has been the subject for debate for a while.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    It has an ongoing effect. The option on how balanced anything from SCAG has been the subject for debate for a while.
    Only by people who don’t know how to balance things.

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Only by people who don’t know how to balance things.
    Purple banner knights are balanced? Or undying locks? I must be crazy to think that those poor options.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Purple banner knights are balanced? Or undying locks? I must be crazy to think that those poor options.
    Nice attempt at moving the goal posts and strawmanning. Because you know, this is a discussion about purple banner knights or undying warlocks 🙄

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Which doesn’t stop you from taking the booming blade damage if you move so... go you?
    I use mobility to tag people with BB. They then have to move to get in melee with me, which triggers BB.

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citadel97501 View Post
    Hello all, I am wondering how you all feel about a warlock ignoring Eldritch Blast and its related invocations in favor of Sacred Flame?
    Having played a Celestial Tomelock, Scared Flame works well. I also took Green Flame Blade, and Flame Bolt (at 3rd) for a Sune worshiping celestial touched warlock.

    Yes it was Fire dependent and I had fewer options against Fire Resistant/Immune enemies but the campaign didn't revolve around those.

    I had a versatile character for ranged attacks, melee attacks, and save attacks vs high AC's. Plus all the other abilities available to me.

    This was a fun and involved character that I would recommend to others. Be sure to discuss all character ideas with your DM though. In the end they are the only ones that can tell you (or hint) whether a character is a good idea in the campaign they are running.

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Nice attempt at moving the goal posts and strawmanning. Because you know, this is a discussion about purple banner knights or undying warlocks 🙄
    The point was about the general balance of player options in SCAG not just the blade cantrips.

    SCAG IMO has the more options that are 'off' than any other single book. Which is impressive seeing how short it is.

    BB does more damage than other cantrips barring EB. Not by a whole lot but iy did move away from the standard of adding stat modifier to the cantrip w/o an action cost e.g magic Stone or shillelagh. Most of the time it's not enough to care about but having a spell with little to no cost that can benefit from bonuses to weapon attacks and spell casting is going to cause issues with a good change of more popping up with additional content.
    I think it became the standard option for anyone who didn't have the extra attack feature. Standard options tend to reduce options.

    It has the most duds for Subclasses. If you discount reprints, Scag Subclasses have a very low popularity. Chalk it up to bad fluff or crunch, they are off.

    Overall SCAG is wonky and off. The overall balance of 5e is solid enough that it doesn't break or even bend anything but it does leave it asmidgen off.
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2020-04-06 at 06:14 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by col_impact View Post
    I use mobility to tag people with BB. They then have to move to get in melee with me, which triggers BB.
    Ah my mistake. I thought you were saying mobility helped you avoid the trap somehow

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    The point was about the general balance of player options in SCAG not just the blade cantrips.
    Yes. Which is what moving the goalposts and strawmanning means.

    None of that is being discussed. Only one thing.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    No but honestly that's not a bad way of balancing it....that or add a save to the secondary effect.

    If you think the SCAG blade cantrips are unbalanced, you either haven’t played with them or roll for stats. Relying on a secondary stat for an attack is more than enough balance.

    In my experience, the situations where BB gets abused, the cantrip is not the problem. Sorcadins and Hexblade Sorlocks are well above the power curve even without them.

    Only Clerics and Rogues without extra attack get real value out of BB, and only Rogues will be using it constantly. Eldritch Knights get substantial benefits from levels 7-10, but making their L7 subclass feature relevant is hardly unbalancing.

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuras View Post
    If you think the SCAG blade cantrips are unbalanced, you either haven’t played with them or roll for stats. Relying on a secondary stat for an attack is more than enough balance.

    In my experience, the situations where BB gets abused, the cantrip is not the problem. Sorcadins and Hexblade Sorlocks are well above the power curve even without them.

    Only Clerics and Rogues without extra attack get real value out of BB, and only Rogues will be using it constantly. Eldritch Knights get substantial benefits from levels 7-10, but making their L7 subclass feature relevant is hardly unbalancing.
    Yea sorcerer is probably to key element that sends it out of wack. Hexblade is a good example of what I meant by it stacks to easily. I'm worried as additional content is published it'll just make the stronger option stronger without doing anything to address the weaker ones.
    As far as single attack vs BB in the case of rogue and clerics I think if normal attack had more flexible from the get it would be a non issue.
    BB adding almost as much soft CC as AOO rubs me wrong.
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2020-04-06 at 08:04 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Yea sorcerer is probably to key element that sends it out of wack. Hexblade is a good example of what I meant by it stacks to easily. I'm worried as additional content is published it'll just make the stronger option stronger without doing anything to address the weaker ones.
    As far as single attack vs BB in the case of rogue and clerics I think if normal attack had more flexible from the get it would be a non issue.
    BB adding almost as much soft CC as AOO rubs me wrong.
    In theory (and normally in practice) it’s balanced out by the fact that those using BB either shouldn’t be in melee (Rogues, Wizards, Sorcerers, most Warlocks), are using a secondary stat (Clerics) or rely on BB as their special class benefit (EKs).

    In my actual play experience, it’s only been worth it for a Swashbuckler Rogue (Magic Initiate), Abjurer Wizard (Dwarf with Gauntlets of Ogre Power) and builds using Quicken Spell. I’m assuming Eldritch Knights would like it too, but I play PHB+1 and the EKs I’ve seen all preferred Xanathar’s and access to Absorb Element.

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