Unchaining the Fighter (a little bit)

[Aotrs Commander]

Funny what sometimes comes to you. So first thing this morning, out of the blue, this idea struck me. I suspect part of it is due to the "wizards should be better than fighters" thread and consideration thereof, part of it is due to Asmo out of Role With Me stream/podcast and part of it is Bleakbane's Mind Works In Mysterious ways.

Anyway, I am considering (well going-to-but-potentially-with-modification) adding the the following ability to Fighters.

(Note; this is essentially onto what is already the Pathfinder fighter, but with an additional bonus whatever-you-like feat gained at every odd fighter level and also that some feats have additional benefits if you have X levels of fighter.)



Action Surge (Ex): At 4th level, the fighter gains the ability to perform acts of great physical prowess. The fighter gains a number of Action Surges equal to ½ his Fighter level plus his Strength, Dexterity or Constitution modifier. The fighter selects which ability to use when he reaches 4th level and it cannot be changed.

A Fighter may expend 1 Action Surge to do one of the following:
1) As a Swift action before making a Full Attack action, gain one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. This bonus attack stacks with other bonus attacks, such as those gained from flurry of blows or Haste and similar effects. A Fighter whose base attack bonus grants him iterative attacks may further choose to make an number of extra attacks (at his highest base attack bonus) up to his number of iterative attacks (so a 20th level fighter could choose to make a futher three attacks, for a total of four extra attacks), but each additional attack expends 2 Action Surges.
2) Move up to his base speed as a Swift action.
3) Make one additional attack of opportunity as an Immediate action.
4) As an Immediate action, add +2 for every Action Surge he expends to ability and skills checks for his Action Surge’s ability modifier. If the check is not an opposed check, the fighter may use this ability to increase a failed check to a success.
5) At 8th level, as a Move action, gain Advantage on his next single attack (which must be made before the end of his next turn).
6) At 12th level, as a Move action, regain 1D10 hit points for every Action Surge he expends.
7) At 16th level, as a Swift action before making a Full Attack action, gain Advantage on all attacks at his highest base attack bonus.

(8th/12th/16th particularly because that falls into a position where the fighter only gets a bonus combat feat, so now it means fighters get Two Things on the class table at every level. If you want to debate with me whether some of the abiltiies need to be moved up or down or around, feel free!)

Now, I'm PRETTY sure this cannot POSSIBLY break the fighter, but it does, I think, warrent a second and subsequent pair of eyes to see if I've missed anything obvious.

(The healing one is basically inspired by 4E/5E's Second Wind (and the name is obviosly and to 5E. Never let it be said I won't crib the better ideas off even systems I'm not fond of! Oh, and for comparison, the environment of healing this is matched to is one in which basic healing has been CONSIDERABLY buffed, so at 12th level, a Cure Critical Wounds would heal 20+10D8 and Mass Cure Moderate heals 30+6D8. And also Heal, obviously! You might even argue it's not string enough, but I figured as a Move action made it probably acceptable.)

I also want to add this as a self-contained ability. Fighters already (and 3.Aotrs fighters specifically) get plenty of choosable stuff, so they don't need, like ki powers (okay, you could argue now I could have a replacement class feature which replaced this and some of those with ki powers or something...) It also means it's easy to retroactively add it to existant fighter stats!

Yes, I'm aware that if does make the fighter (more) dippable, but by the same token, rogue/monk/paladin are fairly dippable (and fighter was anyway), but I didn't want to dump this up higher at the expense of the single-classed fighters.

[Kris Moonhand]

It looks good, and I wouldn't really call something from 4th level a dip. By the way, you might want to specify how and when action surge uses are regained. And also note what capital-A Advantage means, since that's not a PF term and not everyone plays 5e.

[Kurald Galain]

Anyway, I am considering (well going-to-but-potentially-with-modification) adding the the following ability to Fighters.

Here's the catch. While the PF fighter has some issues, dealing damage in combat is really not one of them.

Almost all of your suggestions relate to making the fighter deal more damage in combat, which isn't needed. The self-healing ability (#6) is unlikely to be worth forgoing 3-4 attacks. The skill ability (#4) is way too expensive (compare to e.g. Investigator Inspiration) and I'm unclear why it cannot change an opposed check to a success. So the only really effective change you're making here is giving all fighters pounce (ability #2).

But really, what a fighter needs is more skill points (Lore Warden archetype), a familiar (Eldritch Guardian), wings (Mutation Warrior) and/or dungeon crashing (Siegebreaker), and possibly the ability to deflect spells with his sword (advanced weapon training ability). Not just dealing more damage in combat.

[Madsamurai]

Here's the catch. While the PF fighter has some issues, dealing damage in combat is really not one of them.

Almost all of your suggestions relate to making the fighter deal more damage in combat, which isn't needed. The self-healing ability (#6) is unlikely to be worth forgoing 3-4 attacks. The skill ability (#4) is way too expensive (compare to e.g. Investigator Inspiration) and I'm unclear why it cannot change an opposed check to a success. So the only really effective change you're making here is giving all fighters pounce (ability #2).

But really, what a fighter needs is more skill points (Lore Warden archetype), a familiar (Eldritch Guardian), wings (Mutation Warrior) and/or dungeon crashing (Siegebreaker), and possibly the ability to deflect spells with his sword (advanced weapon training ability). Not just dealing more damage in combat.

I want to second this!

In pf, the fighter has 3 problems:
1. Low out of combat agency
2. Being boring because they don't have choices to make in combat
3. Difficulty fighting exotic threats, like swarms, ghosts, fliers, etc...

The OP's proposal addresses #2, but I feel it adds too much combat power. Like you said, the skill and healing abilities are also too weak compared to the damage ones.

[Aotrs Commander]

The self-healing ability (#6) is unlikely to be worth forgoing 3-4 attacks.

It is intended to be there for emergancies, when the cleric can't get to you fast enough. The point being, it doesn't cost you anything to have the option, because it's not replacing anything. But if you have a better suggestion, I'm open.

The skill ability (#4) is way too expensive (compare to e.g. Investigator Inspiration) and I'm unclear why it cannot change an opposed check to a success.

That gives you a D6 once, where as this gives you +2 stackable. Not on opposed checks was because no-save Intimidate shanigans seems like it could quickly get no fun from either side of screen, especially with potential shanigans; I'll be honest, I was worried specifically about Intimidate... So perhaps swapping it to investigation inspiration clone might be better, on consideration. (I'll freely admit, I'd completely forgotten about that ability this morning. This is what happens when I do Stuff before breakfast...)

So the only really effective change you're making here is giving all fighters pounce (ability #2).

Generally one of the main complaints I have seen were how the fighter would not be able to get full attacks off very much (vis a vis fighter vrs warblade). 3.5 (and 3.Aotrs) barbarians can get pounce at level 1, so I did't see why the fighter shouldn't get something not dissimilar.

But really, what a fighter needs is more skill points (Lore Warden archetype),

Aside from giving some extra skill points (which have to be spent on intelligence), I don't see what that particular archtype really adds to the out-of-combat contribution, given as all the other class features pertained to combat.

Getting a bit me-specific, but the more-skills option is already covered in 3.Aotrs as an ACF, trading out the first level bonus feat (as opposed to the first level bonus combat feat) for +2 skill points/level and four class skills of your choice. And it's an option, because all those NPC fighters don't care, typically.

a familiar (Eldritch Guardian)

Why? I can maybe see the point of animal companion (but there is an argument that says at that point, why are you picking fighter and not some other class and/or multiclassing), but familiar?

wings (Mutation Warrior)

Now here I have to disagree. (Even with it being said that IS an available archtype for my houserules.) Not every character needs to fly (not even all the Justice League and the Avengers fly). As an option? Fine; that's cool. But it doesn't HAVE to have it. (See also note on fliers below.)

and/or dungeon crashing (Siegebreaker), and possibly the ability to deflect spells with his sword (advanced weapon training ability).

Don't see anything in the former that isn't worth adding a short feat chain for instead. You can already do the latter with PF feats (Spellcut), which by this version you have more of, before taking Action Surge into account. (And isn't that also just more combat ability?)

(Also, as we're talking about this, probably to ought to note my houserules have also folded all the Improved/Greater/etc combat maneuvre feats back into a single feat for each maneuvre which just grants the abilities of the greats et al at the appropriate levels and thus reduces the feat tax.)

3. Difficulty fighting exotic threats, like swarms, ghosts, fliers, etc...

I mean... Yes? If every character (and very pertinently, every NPC, since fighters (followed closely by clerics) make the no.1 classed enemy you'll encounter in my experience) can easily deal with every sort of threat because they have class features that let them, then there are no exotic threats. Sometimes you have to suck up a combat where you can't be at 100% effectiveness. Or you prepare with appropriate gear.

As for fliers specifically? ALWAYS carry a back-up ranged weapon. It doesn't matter what character class you are, you should always carry a back-up ranged weapon, even if it's just thrown dagger or javelins. (As DM, I certainly hold no mercy for anyone that doesn't!) Occasional long-range (i.e. down to long-range spells if you're lucky) archery battles against flying harpies with longbows are an expected hazard of the job.

(With a feat every level (and two at first Fighter level), the fighter has available 31 (32 if human) feats (three times everyone else), so I feel the fighter can afford to burn the occasional feat here and there if there is a particular exotic enemy is more than an occasional instance in a campaign (PBS/PS, quick draw (for chucking flasks of alchemist's fire) etc).)

(Swarms, on t'other hand, are a whole other problem to themselves generally. For a kickoff, I feel neither 3.5, nor PF (nor Owlcat in PF:Kingmaker) should have considered that using weapon-immune swarms as a bottom-level encounter was a not a truly terrible idea.)



As to your point 2... Some people (and a good many NPCs) just want to Roll Dice To Hit Things, so I do bear that in mind and position the fighter in the niche of being able to be (but to not have to be just) Simply Hits With Numbers Man. (Someone with a clear idea of what they want to do with a concept is probably going to be better served by making a character with a class or combination of classes that best lets them Do The Cool Thing they want to do. Fighter might be part of that, but not necessarily straight fighter 20.)

[Peat]

I'm also of the position that the PF Fighter already functions just fine as "hit people with numbers" dude (insofar as that functions) and making them better at it doesn't cover the problems that exist when it isn't enough while trending towards overpowered when confronted with groups/tables where that's all most people are doing.

I also think any fix for Paizo hiding Pounce behind high levels in single classes needs to be widely available for all Martials, not just Fighters.

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, so had some more thoughts.

Changed the skill one to be essentially a clone of the Investigator inspiration.



Would, then, the consensus be that the additional attack ability function is bascially unnecessary; so what about instead of that, some sort of ability akin to Ironheart Surge that makes Some Status or something just go away? Would that be better or worse, do you think?

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, after a lot of thought today, I have decided to make some changes.

1) Take away most of the extra attack abilities, save the last, becase might as well have something at 16th - (up from 8th, but made it Swift, not Move as priorly).
2) Make the healing one a good chunk better (heals more, is a Swift action), but also the cost goes up if you use it more than once per day to prevent too much spam.
3) Allow a sort of ironheart surge ability, so the fighter can just "nope" effects; I would say that at 3 surges it's quite good, I could be convinced that it should be 4 or even 5 surges. (Definitely not less, so that fighters don't become totally immune to conditions...!) Representing a sort of "Conan/Batman it off," sort of thing.
4) After having a look up on the maths of Advantage, it works out to +4/+5 in the median band. So I've switched to the skill one to working on all physical skill or ability checks, but granting advantage, not plus anything. (Fluff benefit - it doesn't allow the fighter to do anything he couldn't before,, but it does make him Good At What He Does). Added a feat so that fighters using the Skillful Fighter ACF (more skills, costing the 1st level noncombat bonus feat Fighters get) can use this on four mental skills of their choice.
5) Added Breakerrush/Brakermomentum and Disorientating Blow/Masterful distraction off of the aforementioned Siegebreaker archetype as a feat each. (Rest of the archetye was not worth bothering with.) Plus and "extra action surge" feat for good measure.

Action Surge (Ex): At 4th level, the fighter gains the ability to perform acts of great physical prowess. The fighter gains a number of Action Surges equal to ½ his fighter level plus his Strength, Dexterity or Constitution modifier. The fighter selects which ability to use when he reaches 4th level and it cannot be changed. The fighter’s Action surges are replenished after a night’s rest.
A Fighter may expend 1 Action Surge to do one of the following:

1) Move up to his base speed as a Swift action.

2) Make one additional attack of opportunity as an Immediate action.

3) Roll a Strength- , Dexterity- or Constitution-based ability check or skill check with Advantage as an Immediate action.

4) At 8th level, as a Free action at the end of his turn, the fighter may make an additional saving throw against any effect that allows a saving throw with an interval (such as Ongoing damage, diseases, poisons or Hold Person). A fighter may instead expend 3 Action Surges as a Free action at the end of his turn to automatically end the effects (on himself only) of any one spell, power or other effect affecting him with a duration of 1 or more rounds. (This has no effect on effects that do not have a duration, such as sunlight vulnerability or being grappled by a creature.)

5) At 12th level, as a Swift action, regain 1D6 hit points per fighter level. If the fighter uses this ability more than once in a day, the second and subsequent uses increase the cost by 3 additionl Action Surges (so the second use costs 4 Actions Surge and the third 7).

6) At 16th level, as a Swift action, gain Advantage on his next single attack (which must be made before the end of his next turn).



(Now I really will let it drop, if there is no further input.)