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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Mind Control is No Fun

    So it looks like I'm spending the entirety of the adventure's only significant combat mind controlled against the party.

    I'm thinking that, whereas mind control takes the player out of the game / robs them of agency, and despite the fact that magical compulsions are part of the source material (Lord of the Rings for example, also Jason and the Golden Fleece), maybe mind control effects targeting players shouldn't be a thing in D&D.

    What do you think? Do you agree, or is that ever-present risk part of the fun?
    Proclaiming something "objectively" true or false does not excuse you from proving it so.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    So it looks like I'm spending the entirety of the adventure's only significant combat mind controlled against the party.

    I'm thinking that, whereas mind control takes the player out of the game / robs them of agency, and despite the fact that magical compulsions are part of the source material (Lord of the Rings for example, also Jason and the Golden Fleece), maybe mind control effects targeting players shouldn't be a thing in D&D.

    What do you think? Do you agree, or is that ever-present risk part of the fun?
    I think it depends upon your mindset: how competitive you are, how much psychological separation you have between your desires as a player and the PC's desires, and how sensitive you are to the psychological pain of hurting other players' feelings. I can certainly imagine players for whom the excuse to PvP is a fun challenge.

    I've had players have fun doing a similar thing: roleplaying the monsters for me when a PC is offscreen or downed.

    I think there are certain styles of D&D game for which it would be un-fun and am interested to hear more about the style of game you apparently prefer, and how it differs from the style your DM apparently runs.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    The trouble with this argument is that one can argue that anything which deprives players of the ability to keep fighting on their preferred side is unfun, and thus should be eliminated. Paralysis. Petrification. Unconsciousness. Death.

    It would take a massive rethinking of combat paradigms to enable PCs to continue to participate meaningfully on their player's preferred side no matter what happened and yet still make the combat an interesting minigame with meaningful consequences.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    I don't think they need to go away entirely, but I do think there's a difference between a PC using a mind-controlling spell and and an NPC doing the same.

    The DM controls multiple characters while each player usually has a single PC that they invested a lot of time into, it's not fun for the player to lose control of its PC. I consider this even worse when it comes to classes like the Fighter, that usually only shine during combat.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    So it looks like I'm spending the entirety of the adventure's only significant combat mind controlled against the party.

    I'm thinking that, whereas mind control takes the player out of the game / robs them of agency, and despite the fact that magical compulsions are part of the source material (Lord of the Rings for example, also Jason and the Golden Fleece), maybe mind control effects targeting players shouldn't be a thing in D&D.

    What do you think? Do you agree, or is that ever-present risk part of the fun?
    It sounds more like you're objecting to not being able to do anything than the mind control itself. I'd be pretty peeved as well if I had to spend an entire session not doing anything because my character was dead and the party couldn't do anything until next week to resurrect me. That said, I wouldn't want death to be taken out of the game. Nor would I want a particular PC's death to be something a low-level party in the middle of nowhere can just easily ignore.

    Were I the DM, in such situations where someone is out of the action for more than a couple of hours I'd make some alternative arrangements for the player so they can still participate. Such as a GMPC you can control for the time being. Hell, I'd even just let you play my monsters during a combat encounter if you were cool with it.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I think it depends upon your mindset: how competitive you are, how much psychological separation you have between your desires as a player and the PC's desires, and how sensitive you are to the psychological pain of hurting other players' feelings. I can certainly imagine players for whom the excuse to PvP is a fun challenge.

    I've had players have fun doing a similar thing: roleplaying the monsters for me when a PC is offscreen or downed.

    I think there are certain styles of D&D game for which it would be un-fun and am interested to hear more about the style of game you apparently prefer, and how it differs from the style your DM apparently runs.
    Good points. I think I'm competitive in the sense that I enjoy the tactical challenge of combat. But I'm okay with my PCs dying if they put on a good show first. Not really a fan of PVP. I guess what really stings is that we've spent four sessions investigating and RPing and it's hard-limited to six sessions. So this is likely the only significant combat we'll see, and I built this character to be a defender. Both RP-wise and mechanically I was looking forward to playing that out.
    Proclaiming something "objectively" true or false does not excuse you from proving it so.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    It sounds more like you're objecting to not being able to do anything than the mind control itself. I'd be pretty peeved as well if I had to spend an entire session not doing anything because my character was dead and the party couldn't do anything until next week to resurrect me. That said, I wouldn't want death to be taken out of the game. Nor would I want a particular PC's death to be something a low-level party in the middle of nowhere can just easily ignore.

    Were I the DM, in such situations where someone is out of the action for more than a couple of hours I'd make some alternative arrangements for the player so they can still participate. Such as a GMPC you can control for the time being. Hell, I'd even just let you play my monsters during a combat encounter if you were cool with it.
    Well, yes and no. My character is receiving orders, so I'm not necessarily totally out of the game. Just not making any decisions.
    Proclaiming something "objectively" true or false does not excuse you from proving it so.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    The trouble with this argument is that one can argue that anything which deprives players of the ability to keep fighting on their preferred side is unfun, and thus should be eliminated. Paralysis. Petrification. Unconsciousness. Death.

    It would take a massive rethinking of combat paradigms to enable PCs to continue to participate meaningfully on their player's preferred side no matter what happened and yet still make the combat an interesting minigame with meaningful consequences.
    To some extent, yes, but which hurts more? "My character died fighting for what he believes in" or "My character became a mindless thrall and murdered everything he cared for"?
    Proclaiming something "objectively" true or false does not excuse you from proving it so.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    Well, yes and no. My character is receiving orders, so I'm not necessarily totally out of the game. Just not making any decisions.
    Are you more "charmed into being on the enemy side" or "dominated into being a meat-puppet?" If the former, you can get your tactical fantasy and enjoyment out of playing your character's defender schtick for the bad guys instead of the other PCs. If the latter, you can talk to your DM about how much autonomy you really should have in terms of what you can do.

    The key in either case is not to metagame it to sabotage the side you're mind-controlled into being on, unless the form of control expressly allows that.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    I think most of the effects that would be considered mine control in 5th edition are limited enough in duration or parameters to mostly be a non-issue.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Are you more "charmed into being on the enemy side" or "dominated into being a meat-puppet?" If the former, you can get your tactical fantasy and enjoyment out of playing your character's defender schtick for the bad guys instead of the other PCs. If the latter, you can talk to your DM about how much autonomy you really should have in terms of what you can do.

    The key in either case is not to metagame it to sabotage the side you're mind-controlled into being on, unless the form of control expressly allows that.
    Yeah, that is a temptation, isn't it? Maybe I can ask the DM for some more autonomy. Good suggestion.
    Proclaiming something "objectively" true or false does not excuse you from proving it so.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    Yeah, that is a temptation, isn't it? Maybe I can ask the DM for some more autonomy. Good suggestion.
    Good luck.

    It really does matter what the precise form of mind control is, too. That dictates a lot about how you RP it, and what you should be playing your motives as.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    To some extent, yes, but which hurts more? "My character died fighting for what he believes in" or "My character became a mindless thrall and murdered everything he cared for"?
    Depends how much you like roleplaying angst. : )

    "I dedicated my life to protecting my friends and then one day a god cursed me into murdering them all" is a tragic backstory not dissimilar to events in the life of Heracles. If you're willing to let this event affect your PC emotionally it could be good roleplaying material.

    Having a tragic backstory imposed on your PC against your will could certainly be irksome though. Hopefully everybody survived, so you have the option of just shaking it off like it never happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    Yeah, that is a temptation, isn't it? Maybe I can ask the DM for some more autonomy. Good suggestion.
    The worst thing a DM can do is force a player to sit around being bored when alternatives are available. As a DM I would always lean on the side of "more autonomy" for this reason. Even if from the story standpoint there's an evil wizard literally meat-puppetting the PC (via e.g. Magic Jar), I would almost always negotiate the specifics of what the evil wizard is doing with the player--in the case of Magic Jar I might even just straight-up hand them (most of) the evil wizard's stats and say "you're now playing this guy inside your normal body, and here are your evil goals".

    Nobody wants to watch the DM roll dice against themself, so engaging the players as much as possible is a good goal even when it sometimes winds up with evil wizards using less-than-perfectly-optimal evil tactics.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-04-07 at 03:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    I hate effects that impact my characters behavior outside of my control, but I also understand that I'm not necessarily supposed to enjoy them and in just about every case I had a chance to overcome them before it came to the point I disliked.

    As much as I personally dislike them, I think my enjoyment would be hurt more if such things were taken out of D&D. If these effects still exist, but simply can't target players, that brings in to question on lot of issues with realism. If we take the effects out altogether then some memorable and unique monsters would disappear, story avenues of espionage and betrayal would lose some of the "magic" involved in making them tense and unique.

    This is a pretty polarizing topic though, I've seen threads in the past that have gone rapidly downhill in such discussions and sessions in my own table have ended up volatile because of compulsions effects making a player feel like things were "unfair".

    Communication between those involved is the most important thing and if you suspect that it may be a problem even pre-empting the situation with a bit of discussion about what players expect from such things seems warranted. I've often considered adding my expectations for Charm/Domination effects into any future session 0 handouts I make because I had such an awful experience running vampires (a player and I felt very differently on how effective a Vampires Charm should be) that it's had me wary of these things since.

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    To some extent, yes, but which hurts more? "My character died fighting for what he believes in" or "My character became a mindless thrall and murdered everything he cared for"?
    I think it depends. Both on the player, and the circumstances. There was actually a campaign I played in where I experienced both of those. My first character was a Paladin who did have strong beliefs, and he fought exactly as I wanted him to, and died fighting for what he believed in. My second character was a Barbarian that, quite literally became mindless (damn intellect devourers) and ended up helping murder everything he cared for.

    And I'll tell you what, for me the latter was a heck of a lot more enjoyable. On the one hand, yeah, my paladin played the way I wanted them to, and died fighting for what he believed in. But he also died a rather boring death that was more a result of terrible dice luck than anything. Its not like just because he fought for his ideals that meant he went out in a blaze of glory. He didn't. He bled out on the side of a road because some bandits crit too much.

    On the other hand, the death of my barbarian (and the rest of the party) was great. It is a moment we still talk about to this day, because it was actually fun and entertaining. Sure, I didn't get to do what the character I made would have done, but the DM let me play out the character, giving me orders but not dictating my actions directly. And so I just ran with it, had fun, helped some mindflayers trick the party into walking into a trap, and then got to chop our annoying prick of a warlock in half (the character was the annoying prick, btw, not the player. The player is cool, and loved how this all went down).

    Ultimately, I think it just depends a lot on circumstances. I know there are probably a lot of people who put so much work into their character that having to play them differently than they envisioned hurts. I also know there are probably a lot of situations where being mind controlled is not that fun, because it ends up meaning you play a less interesting version of your character, and it doesn't even end up mattering. But there are also situations where being mind controlled can be very interesting, and there are people who are happy to just go with the flow on these kind of things so long as it keeps them entertained. And I'm not saying any one situation is better than another. D&D is a broad game for people that enjoy many different play-styles. So while I don't think mind control is something good for every table, I think it is a good mechanic for the game to have, and do not think the game would be any better without it.
    Last edited by jas61292; 2020-04-07 at 03:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    On the other hand, the death of my barbarian (and the rest of the party) was great. It is a moment we still talk about to this day, because it was actually fun and entertaining. Sure, I didn't get to do what the character I made would have done, but the DM let me play out the character, giving me orders but not dictating my actions directly. And so I just ran with it, had fun, helped some mindflayers trick the party into walking into a trap, and then got to chop our annoying prick of a warlock in half (the character was the annoying prick, btw, not the player. The player is cool, and loved how this all went down).
    That sounds awesome. : ) Great story!

  17. - Top - End - #17
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    So it looks like I'm spending the entirety of the adventure's only significant combat mind controlled against the party.

    What do you think? Do you agree, or is that ever-present risk part of the fun?
    How does your DM run mind control? When I include it in my games, the player continues to control their character, with the caveat that I will take over if the player doesn’t do their best.

    I have never had to take over: on the contrary, most players are positively gleeful at the possibility to take on the other characters.

    You can suggest this approach to your DM.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    So it looks like I'm spending the entirety of the adventure's only significant combat mind controlled against the party.

    I'm thinking that, whereas mind control takes the player out of the game / robs them of agency, and despite the fact that magical compulsions are part of the source material (Lord of the Rings for example, also Jason and the Golden Fleece), maybe mind control effects targeting players shouldn't be a thing in D&D.

    What do you think? Do you agree, or is that ever-present risk part of the fun?
    I disagree. PCs are and should be viable targets for all manner of terrible things. They are special enough that they can often succeed despite such challenges; there is no need to make it even easier for them. What's next? Immunity to all negative conditions (including unconsciousness & death)? No thanks.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Effects robbing characters of their agency are extremely annoying, but they're still part of the game. However, in recognition of their nature, they are quite limited in scope. Especially mind control.

    If it's a rare occurence, it's just part of the game. Someone will get stunned eventually. Or paralyzed. Or charmed. They might even die. It's not a common thing, but it is a thing. And given the limitations it's often bad luck to fall victim to such a thing, and extremely bad luck to have it last (seriously, you need terrible luck or abysmal saves, in which case you deserve it, if you have a Hold Person or, worse, a Dominate effect, last more than a couple rounds).

    Where it gets truly obnoxious is when it happens very often, or when effects are taken out of context. That typically means charm effects being used as domination; while the Dominate spells give a ton of saves and have a number of restrictions, most charm effects last long and have little counterplay.

    The DM in one of my games, who is very lacking in rule knowledge and tends to houserule things on the spot whenever he's told that an effect he's using doesn't work like that and doesn't suit his narrative, once did something of the kind with a vampire. Their charm was used as full mind control (and it's a very hard effect to get rid of), houseruled on the spot when I informed him that this isn't how things work. So our fighter ended up spending the entire session attacking us. Needless to say, he wasn't very happy about having an immovable brainwashing effect stacked on him.

    You can't remove effects like these from the game. It would be unfair if only the PCs had access to them and would limit options and damage fantasy greatly if nobody had them at all. We live with them. But precisely because of their tricky nature they're not something to be abused.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos Jackal View Post
    Effects robbing characters of their agency are extremely annoying, but they're still part of the game. However, in recognition of their nature, they are quite limited in scope. Especially mind control.

    If it's a rare occurence, it's just part of the game. Someone will get stunned eventually. Or paralyzed. Or charmed. They might even die. It's not a common thing, but it is a thing. And given the limitations it's often bad luck to fall victim to such a thing, and extremely bad luck to have it last (seriously, you need terrible luck or abysmal saves, in which case you deserve it, if you have a Hold Person or, worse, a Dominate effect, last more than a couple rounds).

    Where it gets truly obnoxious is when it happens very often, or when effects are taken out of context. That typically means charm effects being used as domination; while the Dominate spells give a ton of saves and have a number of restrictions, most charm effects last long and have little counterplay.

    The DM in one of my games, who is very lacking in rule knowledge and tends to houserule things on the spot whenever he's told that an effect he's using doesn't work like that and doesn't suit his narrative, once did something of the kind with a vampire. Their charm was used as full mind control (and it's a very hard effect to get rid of), houseruled on the spot when I informed him that this isn't how things work. So our fighter ended up spending the entire session attacking us. Needless to say, he wasn't very happy about having an immovable brainwashing effect stacked on him.

    You can't remove effects like these from the game. It would be unfair if only the PCs had access to them and would limit options and damage fantasy greatly if nobody had them at all. We live with them. But precisely because of their tricky nature they're not something to be abused.
    Suppose I play a character with 12 Wisdom of a class not proficient in Wisdom saves. Why do I deserve to suffer Hold Person? Why must I always take Resilient Wisdom feat or forever be blamed for whatever fear or charm effect my character suffers? What if I have an 8? Maybe it's 8 IN and I'm forever trapped in a Phantasmal Force. Maybe it's 8 ST and I'm forever trapped in Entangle or Web.

    No player "deserves" to suffer because he happens to have a low score somewhere. It can happen. It's part of the game. You deal with it. You never "deserve" it.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    By my playing group's tradition, it is a point of pride for possessed or dominated PCs to be played to the hilt by the player.

    While I recognize that there are Screw Youse that take the player out of the game and that is not the most fun, I am not thinking mind control as a negative. YMMV!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    No player "deserves" to suffer because he happens to have a low score somewhere. It can happen. It's part of the game. You deal with it. You never "deserve" it.
    No player "deserves" to overcome a challenge either. It can happen. It's part of the game. You never "deserve" it.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    My own view is that the 5e went way to far in eliminating long-term mind control. One of my all time favorite modules is Against the Cult of the Reptile God, which completely fails to work if the villain's charm only lasts an hour. There needs to be some kind of mind control/mind influence that lasts for weeks or months, at least on commoners. It's fine, however, if there's a quick counter for PCs, as long as the counter is not something that can be readily scaled up to quickly free all the slaves.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    My own view is that the 5e went way to far in eliminating long-term mind control. One of my all time favorite modules is Against the Cult of the Reptile God, which completely fails to work if the villain's charm only lasts an hour. There needs to be some kind of mind control/mind influence that lasts for weeks or months, at least on commoners. It's fine, however, if there's a quick counter for PCs, as long as the counter is not something that can be readily scaled up to quickly free all the slaves.
    The geas spell might work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    maybe mind control effects targeting players shouldn't be a thing in D&D.
    What if it was more like the mind-influencing effects of the GW1 Mesmer? It was more "do this or else" instead of "do this." So the player got to choose between a rock and a hard place instead of just having their action dictated.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-04-07 at 05:40 PM.
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    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    The geas spell might work.
    It might, if there's a way for a villain in a low level adventure to cast a 5th level spell multiple times per day. (Preferably a way that doesn't involve a magic item ending up in the hands of the low level PCs).
    Last edited by JoeJ; 2020-04-07 at 05:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    maybe mind control effects targeting players shouldn't be a thing in D&D.
    I think that the way mind control is implemented isn't great, but that it could be implemented in a way that presents interesting choices for the player (think like the "do this or else" mind control design of the Guild Wars 1 Mesmer which had you constantly weighing whether it was better to obey or disobey and face the consequences), or in a way that basically makes it feel more earned (e.g. you don't save or die, multiple things have to go wrong for you to die. Mind control could be designed the same way).
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-04-07 at 05:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    It might, if there's a way for a villain in a low level adventure to cast a 5th level spell multiple times per day. (Preferably a way that doesn't involve a magic item ending up in the hands of the low level PCs).
    Unique monster ability, in 5e. There are a lot of 'em.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Suppose I play a character with 12 Wisdom of a class not proficient in Wisdom saves. Why do I deserve to suffer Hold Person? Why must I always take Resilient Wisdom feat or forever be blamed for whatever fear or charm effect my character suffers? What if I have an 8? Maybe it's 8 IN and I'm forever trapped in a Phantasmal Force. Maybe it's 8 ST and I'm forever trapped in Entangle or Web.

    No player "deserves" to suffer because he happens to have a low score somewhere. It can happen. It's part of the game. You deal with it. You never "deserve" it.
    Nobody "deserves" to suffer. We're playing a game. Figure of speech. I believe this kind of purposeful exaggeration is rather common and obvious.

    To answer the Str or Int save comparisons though, fact is, Wisdom saves of all kinds, spells and effects alike, exist, are common, their effects aren't necessarily mind control but can have various levels of debilitation, and are more often than not thrown by DMs at beefy frontliners.

    The game presents a challenge. You're not expected to rise up to every challenge. But if you're facing a common challenge that might have severe repercussions, then not preparing it for it isn't the challenge's fault. You don't "deserve" to get hacked up in two turns, but fact of the matter is, if you're in the front lines regularly and pack 14 AC, it's gonna happen. Wisdom saves might not be as common as physical attacks, but they aren't rare, and are also way more dangerous.

    A character who dumped Str and didn't pick Resilient: Strength will find themselves in a bind once in a while. A character who dumped Int can be absolutely screwed a couple times throughout a game.

    But a character who dumps AC and takes frontline duty will get dropped. Repeatedly. A character who completely forgoes Wisdom will end up in sticky situations. Often. Solely because that's how the game is built.
    Last edited by Chaos Jackal; 2020-04-07 at 06:21 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2019

    Default Re: Mind Control is No Fun

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    So it looks like I'm spending the entirety of the adventure's only significant combat

    This is the source of your problem, not mind control.

    D&D IS NOT DESIGNED FOR ONE COMBAT!

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