Are kobolds as bad a race as they look?

[Segev]

I suspect the answer is "yes," but it's one of those things that I don't entirely trust myself on. In Volo's Guide, we get stats for Kobolds as PCable creatures. They are a rare case of a stat penalty (to strength) in 5e, and they have the negative racial trait of light-blindness (or whatever it's called; the drow have it in the core book. Basically, disadvantage on perception checks related to anything in bright light, or when they're in bright light). Their most notable - in terms of uniqueness, anyway - feature is literally being pathetic, which lets them give Advantage to allies by being a whiny distraction in front of enemies.

Is this feature - or anything else they get - so amazing that it justifies a stat penalty and a negative trait? I know the negative trait is on their monster entry, but that would seem reason to give them an actually cool feature. The fact their unique feature is one that makes them look as uncool as possible seems like a slap in the face to anybody who thinks there's potential flavor in the kobold.

But I am not always the best at recognizing potential. Is the kobold better than I think it is?

I won't be surprised to find out it's as bad as I think it is, but I wouldn't want to start speculating on improvements if it's already better than it looks to me.

[BarneyBent]

Pack. Tactics.

Constant advantage against foes near an ally is extremely good. Works well on a ranged Rogue build, granting advantage in situations you're already trying to engineer for Sneak Attack, and cancelling out Sunlight Sensitivity if you happen to be in direct sunlight.

Yes, if you expect your campaign to involve lots and lots of combat in direct sunlight then it's a problem, but if not then its fine and easily worked around.

The strength penalty is annoying but as a small race you're unlikely to be playing a STR focused character anyway.

[OldTrees1]

Kobolds are good at having advantage. I know a lot of optimization fawns over reliable repeatable sources of advantage.

But I prefer things like extra skill proficiencies. (I miss the fine detail of skill points)

[P. G. Macer]

They are pretty bad, though Pack Tactics make some optimizers drool like a kid in a candy store.

Kobolds are generally pigeonholed into being rogues in order to take advantage of Pack Tactics for Sneak Attack shenanigans.

From what I can tell, the –2 STR penalty is there to disincentivize Great Weapon Master builds, as Pack Tactics would otherwise cancel out the disadvantage from being Small and wielding a Heavy weapon.

Grovel, Cower, and Beg, as you note, while mechanically potent, is thematically a roleplaying pigeonhole, as (barring refluffing) you either have to portray your kobold as a sniveling loser or not use one of your two powerful abilities.

IMHO, Wizards should have further departed from the Monster Manual Kobold when designing the race for Volo’s Guide, as the race as it is happens to be very uneven, either being highly effective or dead weight.

[Luccan]

I suspect the answer is "yes," but it's one of those things that I don't entirely trust myself on. In Volo's Guide, we get stats for Kobolds as PCable creatures. They are a rare case of a stat penalty (to strength) in 5e, and they have the negative racial trait of light-blindness (or whatever it's called; the drow have it in the core book. Basically, disadvantage on perception checks related to anything in bright light, or when they're in bright light). Their most notable - in terms of uniqueness, anyway - feature is literally being pathetic, which lets them give Advantage to allies by being a whiny distraction in front of enemies.

Is this feature - or anything else they get - so amazing that it justifies a stat penalty and a negative trait? I know the negative trait is on their monster entry, but that would seem reason to give them an actually cool feature. The fact their unique feature is one that makes them look as uncool as possible seems like a slap in the face to anybody who thinks there's potential flavor in the kobold.

But I am not always the best at recognizing potential. Is the kobold better than I think it is?

I won't be surprised to find out it's as bad as I think it is, but I wouldn't want to start speculating on improvements if it's already better than it looks to me.

I mean, it's playable. As others have said, reliable advantage is nothing to scoff at. That said, I think its features lend themselves pretty exclusively to rogues and the like. Something that doesn't mind getting a little closer to melee, but is also comfortable at range.

[Jerrykhor]

Kobolds aren't very good, but Orcs are worse. Thoough orcs have quite possibly the worst racials of all races. I think Kobolds are somewhere in the same tier as Goliaths - a little underwhelming, but still viable.

[Avonar]

I will never allow a kobold in my games, mechanically it's ridiculous having seen someone playing a kobold paladin. The ability to have advantage most of the time overcomes sunlight sensitivity, and the abillity to just give all your allies advantage for a round is just filthy. Bear in mind that Pack Tactics isn't just for melee, it applies to ranged and spell attacks too. I could see an extremely powerful kobold warlock.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I mean, it's playable. As others have said, reliable advantage is nothing to scoff at. That said, I think its features lend themselves pretty exclusively to rogues and the like. Something that doesn't mind getting a little closer to melee, but is also comfortable at range.

They make good leader/controller Barbarians. Weirdly enough.

They make pretty awesome Cleric, Druids, and Wizards. Spells with attack rolls = yes please.

Sunlight problems? Normal attack roll with pack tactics.

Enemy gets to close to you? Beg and grovel.

Warlock Kobolds can get advantage on Eldritch Blast... I mean, come on! Even with a lower starting charisma you will be hitting well.

[Dr. Cliché]

Sunlight problems? Normal attack roll with pack tactics.

I don't see how that's a good thing. Unless you love playing a character who can never get Advantage when outdoors.

[sithlordnergal]

They're not the worst by any means, but I think they got the short end of the stick. Pack Tactics is exceptionally strong, so I think that more than justifies them having the Sunlight weakness. Plus I think there's a magic item that can remove Sunlight Sensitivity...though I may be wrong. That said, there's really no reason for them to have a strength penalty. Grovel, Cower, and Beg isn't strong enough to warrant a strength penalty, and Pack Tactics on its own isn't strong enough to warrant Sunlight Sensitivity and a strength penalty.

EDIT: Not only that but Kobolds only get +2 Dex and -2 Strength. Compare that to a Goblin, which gets +2 Dex, +1 Con, and pretty strong racial abilities. All in all, if you wanna play a Kobold, I'd suggest playing a Goblin. You avoid the negatives, and end up doing the same job a Kobold can do, but better.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I don't see how that's a good thing. Unless you love playing a character who can never get Advantage when outdoors.

Adventures don't usually take place in open sunny fields.

It's a great thing because one feature offsets the penalty you normally have for having such great features.

Kobolds are amazing.

[kazaryu]

Grovel, Cower, and Beg, as you note, while mechanically potent, is thematically a roleplaying pigeonhole, as (barring refluffing) you either have to portray your kobold as a sniveling loser or not use one of your two powerful abilities.
.

this is very much not true. once again, even barring re-flavoring there's nothing in the ability that states your cowering need be genuine. in fact, the fact that its an active ability that you choose to do points more towards you deceptively using it as a distraction tactic.

the point being the character don't have to actually *be* a chicken ****. instead they have an ability that says 'if they *act* like a chicken-**** they give everyone else advantage.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Kobolds make great moon druids as wildshape make you loose your features that related to senses(like dark vision, sunlight sansetivity) but let you keep your other race features.
If you are also a front line mount you will always get advantage as there is someone on you.

[Dork_Forge]

You can definitely play one and have fun but as written they are at best inconsistent with 5e mechanics and at worst meaninglessly penalised with not enough benefits to actually get a net gain a lot of the time.

In my games I tend to 'fix' them by:

-remove the Str penalty and give them a +1 to Cha
-remove the sunlight senstivity
-reduce their speed to 25ft

This brings them more in line with what you'd expect from race in 5e and makes them more enjoyable in my experience.

I also give Deep Gnomes Sunlight Sensitivity because things should be consistent, not a game of favourites.

[TigerT20]

You can definitely play one and have fun but as written they are at best inconsistent with 5e mechanics and at worst meaninglessly penalised with not enough benefits to actually get a net gain a lot of the time.

In my games I tend to 'fix' them by:

-remove the Str penalty and give them a +1 to Cha
-remove the sunlight senstivity
-reduce their speed to 25ft

This brings them more in line with what you'd expect from race in 5e and makes them more enjoyable in my experience.

I also give Deep Gnomes Sunlight Sensitivity because things should be consistent, not a game of favourites.

What? But only the bad guys are weak to sunlight!

[chainer1216]

Kobolds aren't very good, but Orcs are worse. Thoough orcs have quite possibly the worst racials of all races. I think Kobolds are somewhere in the same tier as Goliaths - a little underwhelming, but still viable.

Orc player stats have been printed two more times in the Eberron book and the Wildemount book, they removed the stat penalties.

[Segev]

I am sympathetic to the design desire to give kobolds sunlight sensitivity and pack tactics, because those are about the only stand-out traits they have in the monster manual. Creatures lacking traits their race demonstrate when not PCs can be frustrating. Adding features is...less likely to raise a stink, but might still raise some eyebrows. "Wait, why can my kobold do XYZ for being a kobold, but none of the kobolds we ever encounter in the field can?"

I suppose it's really Grovel, Plead, and Beg and the -2 Str penalty that bothers me about them. Both FEEL like penalties, even though the former is actually a reasonably potent racial ability.

If you kept the base kobold stats as-is, and added this half-elf style alternate racial feature, would it be overpowered? (I know the aaracockra have only flight and a natural weapon.)

Urd: You're one of the rare kobolds blessed by Tiamat with wings. You have a flight speed of 30 ft. You never felt the need to cower on the ground to escape danger, so if you take this feature, you do not have Grovel, Plead, and Beg.


(I'd probably design some other alternate features to GPB, as well, but that's the most obvious one just using the MM as inspiration.)



On orcs, the thing that bothers me most about them is that half-orcs just plain have better features, and feel more orc-y in terms of toughness and might. I won't say Powerful Build isn't nice, but it's actually less "mighty" feeling than the resilience feature that lets half-orcs no-sell going to 0 hp at least once.

[Luccan]

I am sympathetic to the design desire to give kobolds sunlight sensitivity and pack tactics, because those are about the only stand-out traits they have in the monster manual. Creatures lacking traits their race demonstrate when not PCs can be frustrating. Adding features is...less likely to raise a stink, but might still raise some eyebrows. "Wait, why can my kobold do XYZ for being a kobold, but none of the kobolds we ever encounter in the field can?"

I suppose it's really Grovel, Plead, and Beg and the -2 Str penalty that bothers me about them. Both FEEL like penalties, even though the former is actually a reasonably potent racial ability.

If you kept the base kobold stats as-is, and added this half-elf style alternate racial feature, would it be overpowered? (I know the aaracockra have only flight and a natural weapon.)

Urd: You're one of the rare kobolds blessed by Tiamat with wings. You have a flight speed of 30 ft. You never felt the need to cower on the ground to escape danger, so if you take this feature, you do not have Grovel, Plead, and Beg.


(I'd probably design some other alternate features to GPB, as well, but that's the most obvious one just using the MM as inspiration.)



On orcs, the thing that bothers me most about them is that half-orcs just plain have better features, and feel more orc-y in terms of toughness and might. I won't say Powerful Build isn't nice, but it's actually less "mighty" feeling than the resilience feature that lets half-orcs no-sell going to 0 hp at least once.

I've considered offering Urd as an alternative feature before. I don't know how people feel about it with Pack Tactics, though. But just wings with negative stat adjustment and sunlight sensitivity seems much worse (whatever people may think about flying PCs)

[Segev]

I've considered offering Urd as an alternative feature before. I don't know how people feel about it with Pack Tactics, though. But just wings with negative stat adjustment and sunlight sensitivity seems much worse (whatever people may think about flying PCs)

In the vein of "playing the fantasy of the fiction," urds in the monster manual have pack tactics, so I am sympathetic to wanting it on the urd PC. It is why I leave the -2 Str in place. Flight AND a good feature (even if "counterebalanced" by a bad one) still probably needs a solid penalty. And since -2 strength reduces carry capacity, which is particularly important for fliers to track, it diminishes the utility of flight a bit.

[N810]

I'm picturing in my head, Dobby the kobold rogue thief, and it's glorious.

[MaxWilson]

I suspect the answer is "yes," but it's one of those things that I don't entirely trust myself on. In Volo's Guide, we get stats for Kobolds as PCable creatures. They are a rare case of a stat penalty (to strength) in 5e, and they have the negative racial trait of light-blindness (or whatever it's called; the drow have it in the core book. Basically, disadvantage on perception checks related to anything in bright light, or when they're in bright light). Their most notable - in terms of uniqueness, anyway - feature is literally being pathetic, which lets them give Advantage to allies by being a whiny distraction in front of enemies.

Is this feature - or anything else they get - so amazing that it justifies a stat penalty and a negative trait? I know the negative trait is on their monster entry, but that would seem reason to give them an actually cool feature. The fact their unique feature is one that makes them look as uncool as possible seems like a slap in the face to anybody who thinks there's potential flavor in the kobold.

But I am not always the best at recognizing potential. Is the kobold better than I think it is?

I won't be surprised to find out it's as bad as I think it is, but I wouldn't want to start speculating on improvements if it's already better than it looks to me.

The kobold is much better than you think because the Sunlight Sensitivity penalties only happen in sunlight, not bright light.

Is that enough to make it good? Eh, depends how easy it is for you to get advantage on ranged attacks from other things. In a certain kind of party, a kobold Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter could be amazing. In other kinds of parties, a kobold Moon Druid providing advantage to other PCs via Grovel could be pretty good, if maybe nonsensical against many enemies. The Strength penalty is fairly irrelevant to most builds you'd want to use kobolds for--you're not going to GWM a kobold anyway because they're Small-sized.

[Joe the Rat]

Having played a Kobold Warlock... they're team players. You are built to play well with others in combat.

Pack tactics is great for hitting things, better out of the sun, but adequate in the sun. It encourages you to soften up the guys your allies are engaged with.
...but as a caster my preference is to use save-based effects when sunlight is a problem.

GCB is fairly niche, as I try to avoid melee. But its come in handy in a pinch. On a rogue or monk, this would be better used thanks to disengage options. There are definite uses for a short-rest area-of-effect Help action.

I find the strength penalty annoying, but it's been with us since Dragon 141. The classic kobold spear is now a poorer option - slings and daggers and shortbows are the way now. Try to sell Mining as a Constitution-based activity. The penalty doesn't prevent you from pack-tac-ing a Longbow or Heavy Crossbow (Picture crossbow-as-arbalest, or a foot-bow)

[Segev]

I find the strength penalty annoying, but it's been with us since Dragon 141.

I only dispute the validity of this justification because strength penalties have been with a lot of races for a long time, but most don't retain them in 5e.

[MaxWilson]

I don't see how that's a good thing. Unless you love playing a character who can never get Advantage when outdoors.

Unless it's nighttime, or rainy, or overcast, or in a forest... Sunlight sensitivity only hampers you when you or your target is in direct sunlight.

Is it a penalty? Yes. It means you will have trouble kiting enemies to death from 600' away in open terrain. You'll make a terrible Sharpshooter. It will even hamper you in some normal scenarios, like getting ambushed by bandits while travelling, though Pack Tactics may help to cancel it back out (or maybe you'll just Grovel to the bandits instead and let the other PCs do the shooting--probably depends on the details of the encounter setup and party composition).

It's a real penalty, but it's also a exaggeration though to say you can never get advantage while outdoors. It isn't nearly that bad. Here in Seattle you'd only have disadvantage while outdoors maybe 3% of the time. (I exaggerate. Seattle's not as bad as its reputation. Olympia however is. Seattle direct sunlight is probably closer to 15% of the time, due to winter overcast, nighttime, and trees.)

[Democratus]

Played a Kobold in "Out of the Abyss", which takes place entirely in the Underdark.

Was not disappointed. :)

[Throne12]

They are only bad or are so so if your playing a str based class.

A rapier and shield kobold paladin is just as good as a str SnB half orc paladin. They make good and cool monks I played a kobold shadow monk. Only class they cant be good in is a barbarian but if you roll for stats and get 16-18 your fine.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I only dispute the validity of this justification because strength penalties have been with a lot of races for a long time, but most don't retain them in 5e.

I'm the same way except they don't matter to the Kobold.

All the best classes can dump strength and it won't matter all that much.

Though, I would love to make a strength based kobold barbarian again... (4e was fun).

[nickl_2000]

I personally think that kobolds shine as Moon Druid. Many DMs will remove sunlight sensitivity because that is a physical trait (not sure on RAWa of that and please don't get into it here because it will completely derail this topic), and gaining advantage from Pack Tactics really helps those forms that have a poor attack bonus but hit really hard.

Bonus points if you are playing with another PC who has the Mounted Combatant feat and they are riding on top of you in beast form.

[Torpin]

like everything you just got to build it right. is a kobold going to be good in say a military campaign, maybe,but probably not, however im playing a kobold swashbuckler right now in an underdark campaign and i dont remember the last time i didnt have get to use sneak attack between pack tactics and rakish audacity. its supremely fun

[Luccan]

like everything you just got to build it right. is a kobold going to be good in say a military campaign, maybe,but probably not, however im playing a kobold swashbuckler right now in an underdark campaign and i dont remember the last time i didnt have get to use sneak attack between pack tactics and rakish audacity. its supremely fun

Sneak Attack already activates under the same conditions required for Pack Tactics