Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Good builds/party for rtwp gameplay?

[Zombimode]

;tldr version:

What are your reccomandations for character builds and choice of companions that are focused around standard/full round actions and not very micro-intensive in order to work well with the real-time-with-pause gameplay?


Long version:

Some time ago I started playing Varns Lot with the turn-based mod installed.
I'm now in the last part of the DLC and I actually have to force myself to play it. Not because I dislike the game in general. I just don't enjoy the gameplay.

That was somewhat suprising to me since I generally like turn-based combat. But there are a couple of aspects of Kingmaker and the mod that makes enjoying them together difficult for me:

• Usability: while the mod is an impressive work, there are huge usability concerns. I find myself constantly doing action I didn't want to. There is no clear indicator if you still have your swift action or not (which is very important, since the game does not prevent you from performing more then one swift action, but doing so eats your other actions). 5-foot steps are not automatically used. There is no clear indicator of the threatened area (and with that no AoO indicators). There is no way of telling if a spot is blocked for movement and also no way of telling the path the character will actually take when issueing a movement. RIGHT CLICK = LEFT CLICK! ... that should NEVER be the case. I have issued more unwanted attack orders by right-clicking on an enemy (to open up a context menu) then I can count. The list goes on.
• It is very clear that the game was not designed for turn-based combat. The game is mostly full of trashmobs (instead of handcrafted set-piece encounters), and I consider trashmobs lazy design in general the faster-paced rtwp-gameplay makes them more bearable.

The character that I choose for Varns Lot, a Magus, is really not playable outside turn-based combat and that goes for pretty much any build that relies on careful action management.
With that in mind I want to plan my main character and companions for the main game that work very well rtwp.

That means:
- mostly reliant on standart/full-round actions
- no or few activated abilities (especially swift actions)

Basically characters that play like Baldurs Gate characters.

I recon basic casters should work well. But what about meele and ranged builds?

All suggestions are welcome

[Narkis]

The character that I choose for Varns Lot, a Magus, is really not playable outside turn-based combat and that goes for pretty much any build that relies on careful action management.

This makes me think you're not really taking advantage of the last word of "RTwP". I've finished the game on the hardest difficulties and Reg was an MVP, along with the other three-and-a-half casters of my party. But I probably spend more time in autopause, assessing the situation and giving orders, than unpaused seeing those orders executed.

That said, the party members who probably require the least micromanagement are:

Tank: Valerie, as a Tower Shield Specialist 10 / Stalwart Defender 10. Give her the important Teamwork Feats (Outflank and Seize the Moment), Shatter Defenses and Cornugon Smash, max her persuasion, grab any AC enhancing feat that can fit and just have her at the tip of your formation so she can charge first.

Melee DPS: Amiri, as a Barb 20. Give her the same Teamwork Feats, Reckless Stance, Beast Totem and whatever seems useful. Just make sure she's Enlarged and safe behind Valerie.

OR

Nok-Nok, as a Rogue 20. Like Ekun, the build should be self-evident. He can Sneak-Attack very easily in this game. Just make sure you keep him protected, like Amiri.

Ranged DPS: Ekun, as a Ranger 20. Again, the build should be self-evident, and requires no babysitting. His dog becomes a beast if properly buffed.

OR

Kalikke/Kanerah, as Kineticists 20. Fire/Earth/Water or Water/Earth/Air so you can have Deadly Earth and Cloud, Bowling Infusion with all the Trip CMD enhancing feats you can pick from Earth. Point, click, watch things die, or keep falling over until they do. Stack Wall/DE/Cloud on top of a boss to see them melt. Requires some managment so your melee characters don't run into the AoEs and die in a round. Right click their single-target attacks to put them on autocast and not bother with trash mobs at all.

Other than those, you need an arcane spellcaster (Octavia's the only one available), a divine spellcaster (Harrim and Tristian both work well), and a support (Linzi or Jubilost are the best). All these require you to actively manage their abilities, however. You absolutely CANNOT leave them by themselves.

Your main character can fit in place of any of the above. I personally prefer a wizard replacing Octavia, but your mileage may vary.

[Spore]

My personal comfort party (that does not abuse the broken animal companion and mercenary mechanic) is MC Mad Dog Barbarian (really any AC, but Leopard is overpowered). I got Linzi for bardic music, Amiri for damage, Tristian for heals and buff spells, Octavia (going full Wizard with accomplished sneak attacker going into arcane trickster) and finally either a mercenary (I like either an Erastil cleric/paladin or a sylvan sorcerer, tho an Aldori Swordlord Dex tankis also viable) or Ekundayo.

If I do not choose a tank character, my fights are pretty alphastrike heavy. If the enemy does not go down in two - three turns, my setup will struggle. But you can stack buffs to overcome that (bard song, bless, heroism on key characters, mage armor for animal companions, prayer, communal protection from evil, barbarian's inspire ferocity with lethal stance (reckless stance if I have two or more archers).

[Zombimode]

Thanks for the reccomondations

I like the Valerie/Amri combination. The kineticists sound awesome, too.

Sooo... how about Valeria, Amri, one kineticist, Octavia, Linzi, and an Inquisitor as the main character?

Or would that be not enough healing?

[The Glyphstone]

Kingmaker is much like regular Pathfinder, in that you rarely want to directly devote resources to healing in-combat. I'd go with a Cleric instead of an Inquisitor for that reason, Channel Positive Energy is a fantastic way to keep your party at 100% fighting strength in between fights.

Regarding animal companions:

Spoiler: Chapter 5+

Show

Have they done anything to make AC's immune to Wild Gaze? It was the biggest frustration of my Druid playthrough that my Cat was rendered completely useless once the Huntsmen became regular enemies. The only way to cancel it on PCs was Blind-Fight, which ACs can't get without mods.

[Narkis]

Thanks for the reccomondations

I like the Valerie/Amri combination. The kineticists sound awesome, too.

Sooo... how about Valeria, Amri, one kineticist, Octavia, Linzi, and an Inquisitor as the main character?

Or would that be not enough healing?

You can make do with potions, but it's certainly gonna be tougher. And having access to Heal, or Mass Heal, when things inevitably go wrong is invaluable. What you're actually gonna miss the most though are the other cleric spells. They have some really good buffs, summons and the like. I agree with Glyphstone, Inquisitor are more frontline combatants than primary spellcasters. And they get Teamwork Feats for free. If you want to play one, I'd have him replace Amiri and play a similar role.

Kingmaker is much like regular Pathfinder, in that you rarely want to directly devote resources to healing in-combat. I'd go with a Cleric instead of an Inquisitor for that reason, Channel Positive Energy is a fantastic way to keep your party at 100% fighting strength in between fights.

Regarding animal companions:

Spoiler: Chapter 5+

Show

Have they done anything to make AC's immune to Wild Gaze? It was the biggest frustration of my Druid playthrough that my Cat was rendered completely useless once the Huntsmen became regular enemies. The only way to cancel it on PCs was Blind-Fight, which ACs can't get without mods.

Spoiler

Show

The answer to your problem is spells. With Freedom of Movement you can just ignore the Gaze's paralysis. Holy Aura, the 8th level cleric spell protects your entire party against all Mind-Affecting effects, like Confusion. And Jubilost's Echolocation can serve as a Blindfight source if you really need it. I never bother wasting a feat for it.

[The Glyphstone]

You can make do with potions, but it's certainly gonna be tougher. And having access to Heal, or Mass Heal, when things inevitably go wrong is invaluable. What you're actually gonna miss the most though are the other cleric spells. They have some really good buffs, summons and the like. I agree with Glyphstone, Inquisitor are more frontline combatants than primary spellcasters. And they get Teamwork Feats for free. If you want to play one, I'd have him replace Amiri and play a similar role.

Spoiler

Show

The answer to your problem is spells. With Freedom of Movement you can just ignore the Gaze's paralysis. Holy Aura, the 8th level cleric spell protects your entire party against all Mind-Affecting effects, like Confusion. And Jubilost's Echolocation can serve as a Blindfight source if you really need it. I never bother wasting a feat for it.

Spoiler

Show

I'll remember that if I ever pick the game up again.

On a similar note, is there any way to ward off the Archers and their Slay Living arrows? Death Ward doesn't make you immune to [death] spells anymore; the other reason I found the Hunt so frustrating was the need to send my arrow-proof Valerie in to essentially solo the entire pack, since they'd maul my backline otherwise.

[Narkis]

Spoiler

Show

I'll remember that if I ever pick the game up again.

On a similar note, is there any way to ward off the Archers and their Slay Living arrows? Death Ward doesn't make you immune to [death] spells anymore; the other reason I found the Hunt so frustrating was the need to send my arrow-proof Valerie in to essentially solo the entire pack, since they'd maul my backline otherwise.

Spoiler

Show

Unfortunately, I don't remember there being a way to become completely immune to their arrows. All you can do defensively is use the usual ways to mitigate damage, aka using things like stoneskin and mirror image, buffing saves, and being ready with Heals, Breath of Lifes and Resurrections. But the archers have a low fort save, and no immunity to poison whatsoever. Stinking Cloud, combined with Delay Poison, worked wonders.

[Psyren]

1) Download turn-based mod (it's free)
2) Play whichever class(es) you want

[Aotrs Commander]

1) Download turn-based mod (it's free)
2) Play whichever class(es) you want

The OP did in the OP say they'd tried the turn-based mod and didn't like it.

[Zombimode]

The two biggest issues are the (a) lack of clarity in movement, position and if a path or destination is blocked or not, and (b) the lack of clarity of melee range/threat.

(b) might be a case of me not knowing how to parse the information given, but (a) is a real issue that leads to countless moments of frustration.


Again, the work of the modders is remarkable. But that doesn't mean that the endresult is good. To make a wine allegory: if you manage to make a drinkable wine out of table grapes that would be a remarkable feat. But the wine would still only be drinkable and not good.

[Aotrs Commander]

The two biggest issues are the (a) lack of clarity in movement, position and if a path or destination is blocked or not, and (b) the lack of clarity of melee range/threat.

(b) might be a case of me not knowing how to parse the information given, but (a) is a real issue that leads to countless moments of frustration.


Again, the work of the modders is remarkable. But that doesn't mean that the endresult is good. To make a wine allegory: if you manage to make a drinkable wine out of table grapes that would be a remarkable feat. But the wine would still only be drinkable and not good.

Well, not good for everybody; myself, I turned it on after the first one or two combats and never considering going back to RTwP. If anything, playing turn-based PF:KM after RTwP PoE 2 preceded by turn-based D:OS 1 + 2 indicated that in my old age, I think on balance I prefer a really good turn-based system. (I suppose that it IS telling that FFX was my favourite entry in the series, though, come to that.) But its good that there is now a choice (PF:Wrath of the Righteous is having an offical TBS mode, which might allay some of your problem with the mod; and if not, that's why it's an option.

[Zombimode]

I'm actually pretty much in the same boat, Aotrs Commander, in that I generally prefer turn-based combat.

Well, over the last couple of days I played through Varnhold's Lot and I think I've come to terms with the turn-based mod. All my points remain (I'll add the lack of a Ready action to the list - without readying actions it almost doesn't feel like D&D...), I simply learned to live with them.

So, I will keep the turn-based mod.


An unrelated point: is it just me or are there some "creative" houserules when it comes to the games rules implementation?

Take the spell "Net" for instance. Creatures in the area apparently have to make a grapple check against the caster. Okay, that's not really what I gather from the spell description and I'm at a loss for why the current and physical ability of the caster to win a grapple has anything to do how hard it is to resist the spell's effect. But fine, maybe this is how it rolls in Pathfinder. But here is the real kicker: the casters current Miss Chance is factored into this roll! The caster has Concealment or a Blur effect? 20% of all attempts to resist the Net automatically fail! This can't be correct

Needless to say the Net of my Magus (comparatively high CMD/CMA values, permanent Blur effect through an item) was rather effective.

[Aotrs Commander]

An unrelated point: is it just me or are there some "creative" houserules when it comes to the games rules implementation?

Take the spell "Net" for instance. Creatures in the area apparently have to make a grapple check against the caster. Okay, that's not really what I gather from the spell description and I'm at a loss for why the current and physical ability of the caster to win a grapple has anything to do how hard it is to resist the spell's effect. But fine, maybe this is how it rolls in Pathfinder. But here is the real kicker: the casters current Miss Chance is factored into this roll! The caster has Concealment or a Blur effect? 20% of all attempts to resist the Net automatically fail! This can't be correct

Needless to say the Net of my Magus (comparatively high CMD/CMA values, permanent Blur effect through an item) was rather effective.

Net? Do you mean web? I couldn't locate a Net spell to check the exact wording. (Web doesn't work that way on TT, since it's the creatures making a save vrs grapple and then them making a combat maneovre check vrs the combat maneouvre defence (which is the spell's save DC).)

But that said, the way spells that grapple in PF tend to work (e.g black tentacles) is by making a combat maneuver (grapple) check - often with the bonus being Caster level plus spell save DC (possible plus something else) - and all combat maneouvres are attack rolls, and thus subject to Concealment and miss chance and so on.

If they have programmed Net (whether it's web or something else) to work by caster making combat maneouvre checks to grapple a creature, instead of making creature save or be grappled (or the creature making a CMB check to move), that would automatically factor in miss chance, because combat manouvers (of which grapple is one) are attack rolls in PF, not opposed checks like in 3.5. (Though it probably shouldn't be using the caster's BAB and Str in that case, but caster level and key ability modifer - you might want to check thoise numbers.)

[Zombimode]

Sorry, I meant web!
It somehow got false friended to "net", probably because I'm playing the game in german where the spell is called "Netz".

I think the casters bab and abilities are being used but I wouldn't bet my life on it.


But I still refuse to believe that miss chance of the target relative to the caster is RAW in PF. The stupidity of such a rule would blew my mind.

I mean, does the spell gets harder to resist when the caster ducks behind a wall? What if the caster is dead/helpless? What if the caster is dead but the target can't see the body?

Also I looks like a typical case of sloppy programming.

[Aotrs Commander]

Sorry, I meant web!
It somehow got false friended to "net", probably because I'm playing the game in german where the spell is called "Netz".

I think the casters bab and abilities are being used but I wouldn't bet my life on it.


But I still refuse to believe that miss chance of the target relative to the caster is RAW in PF. The stupidity of such a rule would blew my mind.

I mean, does the spell gets harder to resist when the caster ducks behind a wall? What if the caster is dead/helpless? What if the caster is dead but the target can't see the body?

Also I looks like a typical case of sloppy programming.

If it's a combat maneuvre, it's an attack roll and modified by anything that increases or decreases an attack roll (buffs, debuffs etc). It's not relative to the caster, it's relative to the target. If a target has blur, then any effect which requires an attack roll (attack, combat manouvre or spell using either) misses 20% of the time, from whoever attacks it; whether is the barbarian, the wizard using Scorching Ray or the other wziard using Web (apparently in PF:KM). Cover would not apply from the caster (unless it was a direct ranged attack) but from where the attack came from. If the caster's dead or helpless and the spell doesn't automatically end, the spell just carries on. It might use the caster's CL and ability, but it's the spell making the attack guided by whatever targeting magic normally guides it, so the target would only get cover if it was in a position that it got cover from where the spell was attacking from.



Now, it IS possible that PF:KM still has a few glitches in it so it's not doing that correctly, but that IS how it works in PF TT. (Black Tentacles is a better example, though, since that does emphatically make grapples in PF TT. So if you have Blur on, then 20% of the time, the Black Tentacles will fail to grab you.)

[Narkis]

An unrelated point: is it just me or are there some "creative" houserules when it comes to the games rules implementation?

Take the spell "Net" for instance. Creatures in the area apparently have to make a grapple check against the caster. Okay, that's not really what I gather from the spell description and I'm at a loss for why the current and physical ability of the caster to win a grapple has anything to do how hard it is to resist the spell's effect. But fine, maybe this is how it rolls in Pathfinder. But here is the real kicker: the casters current Miss Chance is factored into this roll! The caster has Concealment or a Blur effect? 20% of all attempts to resist the Net automatically fail! This can't be correct

Needless to say the Net of my Magus (comparatively high CMD/CMA values, permanent Blur effect through an item) was rather effective.

Sorry, I meant web!
It somehow got false friended to "net", probably because I'm playing the game in german where the spell is called "Netz".

I think the casters bab and abilities are being used but I wouldn't bet my life on it.


But I still refuse to believe that miss chance of the target relative to the caster is RAW in PF. The stupidity of such a rule would blew my mind.

I mean, does the spell gets harder to resist when the caster ducks behind a wall? What if the caster is dead/helpless? What if the caster is dead but the target can't see the body?

Also I looks like a typical case of sloppy programming.

Are you absolutely certain you understood how the spell works before you started throwing accusations about "creative houserules" and "sloppy programming"? The in-game spell description has only minor differences to the tabletop version, as you could check yourself, and no difference at all in how it effects an enemy. They initially make a Reflex save vs the caster's DC, and can break the grapple by making skill checks again against the caster's DC. The caster's BAB, CMD and abilities that don't affect the DC don't matter one bit.

Spoiler: Web

Show

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/web/

Just to make sure, I fired up the game and tested it myself, because I remembered Web working exactly as it should. Unfortunately my earliest save was near the endgame, but that shouldn't make a difference. I casted every spell that grants concealement I could think of at my Wizard MC. As I expected, it didn't make a difference. My Web's DC is exactly what it should: 10 base + 2 spell level + 11 INT + 1 Ring of Circumstances = 24. And Ilthuliak saved easily, without any mention of a miss chance being checked.

Spoiler

Show

[Zombimode]

Are you absolutely certain you understood how the spell works before you started throwing accusations about "creative houserules" and "sloppy programming"? The in-game spell description has only minor differences to the tabletop version, as you could check yourself, and no difference at all in how it effects an enemy. They initially make a Reflex save vs the caster's DC, and can break the grapple by making skill checks again against the caster's DC. The caster's BAB, CMD and abilities that don't affect the DC don't matter one bit.

Spoiler: Web

Show

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/web/

Just to make sure, I fired up the game and tested it myself, because I remembered Web working exactly as it should. Unfortunately my earliest save was near the endgame, but that shouldn't make a difference. I casted every spell that grants concealement I could think of at my Wizard MC. As I expected, it didn't make a difference. My Web's DC is exactly what it should: 10 base + 2 spell level + 11 INT + 1 Ring of Circumstances = 24. And Ilthuliak saved easily, without any mention of a miss chance being checked.

Spoiler

Show

And did you also test what happens if you fail that save? According to the spell description a target that fails the save becomes grappled. A grappled target tries to free itself and then the miss chance of the target against the caster applies. That's what I'm talking about.

I've tested it again: after a failed safe a target in the web tries to free itself by making a grapple check against the caster. The DC of the check is the safe DC of the spell, so I was mistaken about that (the event description that the target makes the check against the caster and not the spell probably triped me up). But the target checks it's miss chance against the caster.

After the first failed check, I removed the Ring of Blur the caster was wearing, and et voilá: no more checks against miss chance.


If I could upload screenshots I would show you, but you can easily try it your self.

[Narkis]

You are absolutely right. Web is indeed bugged just as you described. Since release I've seen a lot of people attacking the devs for supposed bugs that turned out to be their own misunderstandings of the ruleset. I assumed you were one of them, and for that I apologise.

I reported the bug. Hopefully they still have someone working on Kingmaker patches.