OOTS #1199 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

I don't think that's as clear as you assert. Maybe they did occasionally do more than one door depending on circumstances, but that's not explicit. What is explicit is Lien in 1189 saying "I don't know why they've suddenly started risking more doors," and then we see Redcloak being the one doing the pushing. Which is a turnaround from where he was before. When he argued for stopping, he talked about spell slots, not red marks. He's taking a more reckless note by arguing "it'll be okay because we've done this many before" instead of actually taking stock of their resources. The fact that he's wrong about how many doors they've done before mostly underscores how drastic the turnaround is, because under ordinary circumstances it's unlikely that Redcloak would actually lose track of something that important.

...Huh, good point.

If he's also actually as unprepared for the Order to arrive as Haley and Vaarsuvius indicate -- when he explicitly remembers who the Order are and identified them as a threat to the Plan -- I definitely have to conclude that there's something major going on.

Hmm... well, he doesn't know Vaarsuvius can't teleport - I don't even know if he knows Darth Vaarsuvius and normal Vaarsuvius are the same person. He did summon what I presume is an Elder Silicon Elemental to kill Roy and the rest of the Order, but he probably wasn't sure that it would succeed.

Right, I would think some speeding up would be expected, but gradually. We never saw any interim position between "we should stop after one door" and "we should try for six doors", and it is specifically called "sudden".

Hmm... On the one hand, we've mostly been focusing on the Order and Hel's forces. On the other hand, it's been two weeks or less between those points.

That was my takeaway from the aftermath of Thanh's death, too. But revenge is actually kind of incidental to the Plan, so even if he's moving past that obsession it doesn't necessarily mean he'll lose focus in carrying out his divine directive.

True. But it could mean he'll be open to a way that benefits goblinoids as well.

If Xykon is gaining XP from this place, Redcloak has got to be jumping levels.

And it's bad news if he's losing interest in things that distracted him from The Plan.

Bad for the Order or for him?

[Xihirli]

If he's also actually as unprepared for the Order to arrive as Haley and Vaarsuvius indicate -- when he explicitly remembers who the Order are and identified them as a threat to the Plan -- I definitely have to conclude that there's something major going on

Things he doesn't (to our understanding) know about the Order:
- They survived the sand elemental
- They had a way to leave the desert and make it to the North Pole

Things he might not know about the Order:
- Important info on their full casters, Durkon and V. Redcloak was far away from them during the Azure City fight, neither was present when he summoned the elemental, and he had no significant interaction with either of them when they stormed Dorukan's Gate Room. When V attacked Xykon at Gobbotopia, they looked very different from their usual and Redcloak popped out of there right after V lost the splice. It's implied that Redcloak didn't recognize V because instead of saying "this is a wizard we've fought before" to Jirix, he says "you'd be surprised how often people pop in to kill you." The Monster in the Dark's suggestion that V was with O-Chul at the other gate already wasn't countered by Redcloak, so while R is aware of V he is clearly unaware that V works for Roy.
I doubt he'd even remember Durkon.


EDIT: Oh, and I guess he doesn't know Roy's "thing with his father, I think?" but since that hasn't been the driving force behind Roy's actions for a long time that's unlikely to be a major oversight.

[CriticalFailure]

I don't think that's as clear as you assert. Maybe they did occasionally do more than one door depending on circumstances, but that's not explicit. What is explicit is Lien in 1189 saying "I don't know why they've suddenly started risking more doors," and then we see Redcloak being the one doing the pushing. Which is a turnaround from where he was before. When he argued for stopping, he talked about spell slots, not red marks. He's taking a more reckless note by arguing "it'll be okay because we've done this many before" instead of actually taking stock of their resources. The fact that he's wrong about how many doors they've done before mostly underscores how drastic the turnaround is, because under ordinary circumstances it's unlikely that Redcloak would actually lose track of something that important.

If he's also actually as unprepared for the Order to arrive as Haley and Vaarsuvius indicate -- when he explicitly remembers who the Order are and identified them as a threat to the Plan -- I definitely have to conclude that there's something major going on.



Right, I would think some speeding up would be expected, but gradually. We never saw any interim position between "we should stop after one door" and "we should try for six doors", and it is specifically called "sudden".



That was my takeaway from the aftermath of Thanh's death, too. But revenge is actually kind of incidental to the Plan, so even if he's moving past that obsession it doesn't necessarily mean he'll lose focus in carrying out his divine directive.

Yeah overall he seems both less obsessed with revenge and hating humans and more obsessed with finally finishing the plan, which is a mixed bag for the Order. It’s hard to evaluate how much the increased recklessness is just growing desperation versus if there are other factors, but it seems clear his outlook has been changing. Some people say Redcloak is a character who is entrenched in his views and thus doesn’t change, but he’s changed quite a bit through the story for the amount of screen time he gets, albeit in subtle ways. Being so willing to take risks with the doors seems pretty unusual for him. Also he seemed more terse at the North Pole than he has been in the past.

If Xykon is gaining XP from this place, Redcloak has got to be jumping levels.

And it's bad news if he's losing interest in things that distracted him from The Plan.

Yeah I am curious if this will get addressed because Xykon talked about getting XP just from a single door. Redcloak is way below him - if they’re doing 5 a night it seems likely he’ll hit epic levels after all.

[Xihirli]

Further, what defenses would they mount? They're not HQing in one tower they can ward, and leaving dangerous spells lying around a bunch of bugbears they don't know is a great way to get those bugbears killed. He doesn't actually control them, and therefore it's likely he can't get them to add more security than this very tough Epic-Monster hunting tribe is used to.

Consider also: Redcloak might not want to push Xykon to start putting up defenses because the instant they finish the ritual the next words out of Redcloak's mouth will probably be either "Word of Recall" or "Plane Shift," and if that gets counterspelled he doesn't particularly want a mine field between him and his escape from the angry lich he made. Same for if Xykon is destroyed: The instant he is, the lich learns that Redcloak switched the Phylasteries and Redcloak has to finish him off before he regenerates enough to feed him to his own goblins. Anything between him and getting out of there is one more thing his backup plans have to work around.

[Mariele]

I'm glad someone brought up the sudden escalation of doors because that's been sticking in my craw for awhile. I was assuming that it was another thing like Rich did with how fast time goes in the afterlife and months passing without knowing it. I know sometimes I have five papers due one night and after two papers I can't remember if I've done two or three. It could be that these dungeons are so similar and so disorienting (they did mention complex, labyrinthine) that Reddy can't honestly remember if they've done three, four, five, six that night because they're starting to blur together. I assumed that's what Rich intended.

However--I did find it weird. This level of desperation and disorientation is something I would expect to take... awhile. How long have they been at this? Safe to say around three weeks, right? Because they'd done quite a few doors already before we cut to Team Evil. That does seem a bit sudden for such a shift in Reddy's mindset. If resources were of no issue, I could say that it seemed reasonable that he'd forget how many they'd done and not notice that WAY more doors have been marked than before, but resources are an issue and he's not prioritizing them. It's not like the first time we saw Team Evil go through a dungeon was the first time they'd done one of those doors. They already had done enough to get an idea of what they were like, and he was still tapped out of spells by the time they were done. I don't think they've leveled up enough or gotten adept enough at these that they can do five in one night without risk, much less six.

And Lien's use of "sudden" is important. Otherwise, she'd have said "they've been increasing the amount of doors they do", etc (under sending limitations of course). Suddenly is an important word to use, especially when you've only got 25 of them.

I wouldn't be surprised if TDO told him to kick it into high gear because this doesn't feel like a natural jump.

[factotum]

If Xykon is gaining XP from this place, Redcloak has got to be jumping levels.

And it's bad news if he's losing interest in things that distracted him from The Plan.

He was already at least level 17 with the capability of casting level 9 spells (he used Implosion in the attack on the Resistance), so I'm not sure that gaining a couple of levels from doing these dungeons is going to make much difference.

[danielxcutter]

He was already at least level 17 with the capability of casting level 9 spells (he used Implosion in the attack on the Resistance), so I'm not sure that gaining a couple of levels from doing these dungeons is going to make much difference.

More 9th-level spells, for one. Expecting him to be out of 9ths after he casts an Implosion and an Extended Unholy Aura could be fatal if he still has enough juice to follow that up with a Gate.

And people have been mentioning low-epic... even if TDO doesn't beam any epic spells into his mind, an extra feat or two at his level can drastically change his combat abilities - especially the epic ones!

[Fyraltari]

Well, I guess I can't blame him for that. And that's even before considering that apparently one of the fights the Scribblers had for a Rift was against an army sent by TDO, so yeah.

Was it? I remember the church of the Dark One fighting the Sapphire Guard but not the Scribblers

Further, what defenses would they mount? They're not HQing in one tower they can ward, and leaving dangerous spells lying around a bunch of bugbears they don't know is a great way to get those bugbears killed. He doesn't actually control them, and therefore it's likely he can't get them to add more security than this very tough Epic-Monster hunting tribe is used to.

Consider also: Redcloak might not want to push Xykon to start putting up defenses because the instant they finish the ritual the next words out of Redcloak's mouth will probably be either "Word of Recall" or "Plane Shift," and if that gets counterspelled he doesn't particularly want a mine field between him and his escape from the angry lich he made. Same for if Xykon is destroyed: The instant he is, the lich learns that Redcloak switched the Phylasteries and Redcloak has to finish him off before he regenerates enough to feed him to his own goblins. Anything between him and getting out of there is one more thing his backup plans have to work around.

I really don’t think Redcloak is planning to get out of the plan alive.

[factotum]

And people have been mentioning low-epic... even if TDO doesn't beam any epic spells into his mind, an extra feat or two at his level can drastically change his combat abilities - especially the epic ones!

I would be surprised if he got *that* high. He'd have to be level 21 to become epic, right, because he'd have to take an epic feat to learn any epic spells and he couldn't take that until level 21? That's a lot of XP to gain, and the only monster we know for sure got into Kraagor's dungeons is a purple worm (we saw Serini talking about one in the Scribble), which is only a CR12 beast, barely a speedbump for Xykon and Co.

[danielxcutter]

Was it? I remember the church of the Dark One fighting the Sapphire Guard but not the Scribblers

Maybe I'm misremembering, I dunno.

I really don’t think Redcloak is planning to get out of the plan alive.

Well, not expecting to at least. He probably wouldn't mind coming back to Gobbtopia to live his days there, though.

[Jasdoif]

Was it? I remember the church of the Dark One fighting the Sapphire Guard but not the Scribblers

Maybe I'm misremembering, I dunno.

You may be thinking of when the Order of the Scribble appeared during Redcloak's "history of the Crimson Mantle" story in Start of Darkness.

[Schroeswald]

I would be surprised if he got *that* high. He'd have to be level 21 to become epic, right, because he'd have to take an epic feat to learn any epic spells and he couldn't take that until level 21? That's a lot of XP to gain, and the only monster we know for sure got into Kraagor's dungeons is a purple worm (we saw Serini talking about one in the Scribble), which is only a CR12 beast, barely a speedbump for Xykon and Co.

But Xykon has said that he thinks he earned XP from a few of the monsters, and with his very high level and crazy LA that means Redcloak must have gotten quit a few, because the options to give Xykon XP are Great Wyrms and some epic level monsters (assuming bare minimum level of 21 with 4 LA) if I understand the rules for CR and Xp correctly, Redcloak getting 4 levels isn’t completely unreasonable (also it was multiple purple worms, and at least one Roc which to be fair is CR9)

[Jasdoif]

But Xykon has said that he thinks he earned XP from a few of the monsters, and with his very high level and crazy LA that means Redcloak must have gotten quit a few, because the options to give Xykon XP are Great Wyrms and some epic level monsters (assuming bare minimum level of 21 with 4 LA) if I understand the rules for CR and Xp correctly, Redcloak getting 4 levels isn’t completely unreasonable (also it was multiple purple worms, and at least one Roc which to be fair is CR9)

Getting into the weeds a bit...Normal XP isn't awarded for encounters eight or more levels above (or below) your ECL. ECL 17 (when Redcloak would first get 9th-level spells) and ECL 25 (the minimum level 21) are eight levels apart, and it's rather unlikely Xykon is only level 21; the range where both Xykon and Redcloak get normal XP is going to be...narrow, let's say. And I don't think we're in a position to guess what the ad hoc XP, for encounters we didn't see, should be.

[Fyraltari]

Getting into the weeds a bit...Normal XP isn't awarded for encounters eight or more levels above (or below) your ECL. ECL 17 (when Redcloak would first get 9th-level spells) and ECL 25 (the minimum level 21) are eight levels apart, and it's rather unlikely Xykon is only level 21; the range where both Xykon and Redcloak get normal XP is going to be...narrow, let's say. And I don't think we're in a position to guess what the ad hoc XP, for encounters we didn't see, should be.

Some of the monsters gave Xykon XP. Meaning that most are under his threshold. The others might have given Redcloak XP.

[Petrocorus]

I really don’t think Redcloak is planning to get out of the plan alive.

I myself believe he probably has some plan to get rid of the Phylactery and don't want Xykon to recover it.

[understatement]

But Redcloak also had a boost of XP from defeating Tsukiko? (not that it's the make-or-break, but it should add a little way in.)

Narratively-wise, there's no way Redcloak's going to survive the story. Not when he pretty much put Azure City under the sword.

[Schroeswald]

Getting into the weeds a bit...Normal XP isn't awarded for encounters eight or more levels above (or below) your ECL. ECL 17 (when Redcloak would first get 9th-level spells) and ECL 25 (the minimum level 21) are eight levels apart, and it's rather unlikely Xykon is only level 21; the range where both Xykon and Redcloak get normal XP is going to be...narrow, let's say. And I don't think we're in a position to guess what the ad hoc XP, for encounters we didn't see, should be.

Thanks, I haven't spent any time with 3.5 outside the srd so my knowledge is mostly what I've picked up here (and yeah, assigning XP from encounters not onscreen isn't really possible).

[CriticalFailure]

But Redcloak also had a boost of XP from defeating Tsukiko? (not that it's the make-or-break, but it should add a little way in.)

Narratively-wise, there's no way Redcloak's going to survive the story. Not when he pretty much put Azure City under the sword.

I wonder how much XP he got from defeating Tsukiko. He handled her pretty easily. Also the resistance, they had to mostly be below level nine so I'd imagine not that much but probably some from the higher level characters and Team Peregrine.

In terms of people speculating on Redcloak's death, I agree that it's fairly likely he won't survive, but I don't think that there's no way it happens. Since he has made it clear he doesn't care about living after the plan is completed and doesn't even care about his soul not being destroyed after the plan is completed, him dying is both pretty expected and not any sort of karma to him since he already expects it. A lot of people have speculated on a redemption equals death moment for him but I don't think that a character who is already willing to sacrifice his life and even his soul for a cause sacrificing his life in a different way is really that dramatic of a turn around. In a lot of ways it would be much more interesting for him to have to live with not completing the plan, since he'd rather die or have his soul destroyed than fail and acknowledge that everything

Spoiler

Show

including killing his brorther and the deaths of his followers

didn't happen to complete the cause.

[understatement]

I'm thinking that there's no way the Order will allow him to walk away, especially someone like Haley (she's a personal witness to the 'regime'). On the other hand, I can't see the Order striking down someone they pledged to ally themselves with.

So Xykon's definitely going to kill Redcloak. I'm betting like...a billion dollars, I dunno. And I'm wagering even more that it's that moment that Roy's going to kill Xykon too. RC will probably get the Miko-ish treatment of death.

Also, XP wise I'm thinking Tsukiko is fairly high-level (see her fight with haley), so RC probably got a nice boost from it.

[CriticalFailure]

I'm thinking that there's no way the Order will allow him to walk away, especially someone like Haley (she's a personal witness to the 'regime'). On the other hand, I can't see the Order striking down someone they pledged to ally themselves with.

So Xykon's definitely going to kill Redcloak. I'm betting like...a billion dollars, I dunno. And I'm wagering even more that it's that moment that Roy's going to kill Xykon too. RC will probably get the Miko-ish treatment of death.

Also, XP wise I'm thinking Tsukiko is fairly high-level (see her fight with haley), so RC probably got a nice boost from it.

Xykon killing Redcloak seems like a fairly likely outcome since Redcloak did create him and Xykon is pretty much emblematic of all his past mistakes and stuff. I think it's his most likely cause of death, with the Snarl and MiTD and the Order as alternatives. I do think that he lives and the Order having to figure out how to accept working with him, and vice versa, is probably the most interesting possible outcome. I also think the idea that there's no way the Order could work with him is a bit of a wash given that V has done worse.

[understatement]

Xykon killing Redcloak seems like a fairly likely outcome since Redcloak did create him and Xykon is pretty much emblematic of all his past mistakes and stuff. I think it's his most likely cause of death, with the Snarl and MiTD and the Order as alternatives. I do think that he lives and the Order having to figure out how to accept working with him, and vice versa, is probably the most interesting possible outcome. I also think the idea that there's no way the Order could work with him is a bit of a wash given that V has done worse.

Does the rest of the Order know about what V had done? I'm pretty sure V only told Roy, though. And unlike V, they don't have any reason to believe that RC is trying to 'redeem' himself or serve his cause for a greater good. (Although they will probably have to talk with him at some point because of the Snarl thing).

Aghh so many theories...

[CriticalFailure]

Does the rest of the Order know about what V had done? I'm pretty sure V only told Roy, though. And unlike V, they don't have any reason to believe that RC is trying to 'redeem' himself or serve his cause for a greater good. (Although they will probably have to talk with him at some point because of the Snarl thing).

Aghh so many theories...

I think it is just Roy who knows right now. They don't have any reason to believe that he is trying to redeem himself but they also will probably need someone to work with on the TDO and goblinoid sides. It's implied that the conflicts between humans and goblins go back ages on either side so I'm not sure if "we need to punish them" will be a viable solution; I think ending the conflict will require more compromise. However, that compromise may not involve Redcloak.

[Petrocorus]

Does the rest of the Order know about what V had done?

They don't AFAIK. But they do work with Belkar, and they did for a long time even before he started to evolve.

[Hekko]

Yeah I am curious if this will get addressed because Xykon talked about getting XP just from a single door. Redcloak is way below him - if they’re doing 5 a night it seems likely he’ll hit epic levels after all.

Some of the monsters gave Xykon XP. Meaning that most are under his threshold. The others might have given Redcloak XP.

Xykon noted that one night that he even gained XP, which I understand to mean that that particular dungeon was more difficult to clear than many others. They may have done several doors a night if they were particularly easy, and it would also be easy to lose count of those.

[danielxcutter]

Xykon noted that one night that he even gained XP, which I understand to mean that that particular dungeon was more difficult to clear than many others. They may have done several doors a night if they were particularly easy, and it would also be easy to lose count of those.

That sounds likely, yeah. Oona suggests doing a second door, and the way she phrases it... does sound a bit like the possibility of doing more than one door has been considered, at least.

[Mic_128]

They don't AFAIK. But they do work with Belkar, and they did for a long time even before he started to evolve.

Yeah, but looking at the deaths, you're comparing a small-time mass-murderer with someone who committed globe-wide genocide.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, but looking at the deaths, you're comparing a small-time mass-murderer with someone who committed globe-wide genocide.

Comparing murderers purely in terms of how many were killed is a bit too simplistic. While Belkar's death toll doesn't reach a tenth of Vaarsuvius', V committed one crime, which V is repentful for whereas Balkar spent most of his life reveling in his own brutality and as of yet, has no remorse for doing so.

[KorvinStarmast]

So Xykon's definitely going to kill Redcloak. I'm betting like...a billion dollars, I dunno.

Which would defeat Thor's plan.
If Xykon does indeed kill Recloak, Durkon will probably raise him.
If he does not, plan doesn't work.

Question is: can Reddie be convinced to come back? Shojo didn't / wouldn't.

[Ron Miel]

Perhaps Reddie will agree to be killed, and carry a message to The Dark One, there being no other way to contact him.

[Peelee]

Perhaps Reddie will agree to be killed, and carry a message to The Dark One, there being no other way to contact him.

Given by what Thor told Minrah and Durkon, it seems like getting a message to TDO is incredibly easy.

Given by what Redcloak told Oona and Hirix told Redcloak, it's getting a message back that's the tricky part.