OOTS #1199 - The Discussion Thread

[factotum]

Given by what Redcloak told Oona and Hirix told Redcloak, it's getting a message back that's the tricky part.

Jirix supposedly delivered a message from TDO to Redcloak after he was rezzed back in Gobbotopia, although since it consisted of just "Don't screw this up" it's debatable how useful it was!

[Peelee]

Jirix supposedly delivered a message from TDO to Redcloak after he was rezzed back in Gobbotopia, although since it consisted of just "Don't screw this up" it's debatable how useful it was!

I would classify "have to die and come back" just to relay a message as tricky, yes.

[Jasdoif]

I would classify "have to die and come back" just to relay a message as tricky, yes.

Were you just dying to say that? Jirix was.

[bunsen_h]

Which would defeat Thor's plan.
If Xykon does indeed kill Recloak, Durkon will probably raise him.
If he does not, plan doesn't work.

Question is: can Reddie be convinced to come back? Shojo didn't / wouldn't.

Shojo had pretty good reasons for staying dead. Redcloak has Stuff To Do. If coming back -- even at the call of Durkon -- would give him a chance of accomplishing it, he'd probably take that chance. If nothing else, being raised by Durkon would doom him to nothing worse than a long tedious time in prison, rather than the kind of stuff he was putting O-Chul through. And the record on keeping high-level characters in prison long-term isn't good.

[Quizatzhaderac]

“Primate-centric”? Are elves, halflings, and dwarves even considered primates? Boy, way to lump all humanoid species into the same taxonomic order, Blackwing.

Yes, they are. Reasonable debate exists for non-mammal humanoids, but in any non-evolutionary taxonomy all bipedal mammals with hands are primates.

If one of the Mysterious Voices is the ghost of Serini, though, who’s the other one?

The ghost of solstice past.

Getting into the weeds a bit...Normal XP isn't awarded for encounters eight or more levels above (or below) your ECL. ECL 17 (when Redcloak would first get 9th-level spells) and ECL 25 (the minimum level 21) are eight levels apart, and it's rather unlikely Xykon is only level 21; the range where both Xykon and Redcloak get normal XP is going to be...narrow, let's say. And I don't think we're in a position to guess what the ad hoc XP, for encounters we didn't see, should be.

If I understand your explanation: both Xykon (assume ECL25) and redcloack should be able to get XP from encounters CL 18-24 as all 7 of those numbers are within 8 of 17 and 25. This seems like a pretty wide band to me.

Also, presumably the order is going to be able to brave the dungeon, which seems to counter-indicate all encounters being CR 25 and up.

[jwhouk]

Which would defeat Thor's plan.
If Xykon does indeed kill Recloak, Durkon will probably raise him.
If he does not, plan doesn't work.

Question is: can Reddie be convinced to come back? Shojo didn't / wouldn't.

...when your God then tells you "YOU SCREWED THIS UP! GET YOUR [REDACTED] BACK THERE!" when you arrive in their presence? Yeah.

[Jasdoif]

But Xykon has said that he thinks he earned XP from a few of the monsters, and with his very high level and crazy LA that means Redcloak must have gotten quit a few, because the options to give Xykon XP are Great Wyrms and some epic level monsters (assuming bare minimum level of 21 with 4 LA) if I understand the rules for CR and Xp correctly, Redcloak getting 4 levels isn’t completely unreasonable (also it was multiple purple worms, and at least one Roc which to be fair is CR9)

Getting into the weeds a bit...Normal XP isn't awarded for encounters eight or more levels above (or below) your ECL. ECL 17 (when Redcloak would first get 9th-level spells) and ECL 25 (the minimum level 21) are eight levels apart, and it's rather unlikely Xykon is only level 21; the range where both Xykon and Redcloak get normal XP is going to be...narrow, let's say. And I don't think we're in a position to guess what the ad hoc XP, for encounters we didn't see, should be.

If I understand your explanation: both Xykon (assume ECL25) and redcloack should be able to get XP from encounters CL 18-24 as all 7 of those numbers are within 8 of 17 and 25. This seems like a pretty wide band to me.

Also, presumably the order is going to be able to brave the dungeon, which seems to counter-indicate all encounters being CR 25 and up.

Like I said, it's rather unlikely Xykon is only level 21. If Xykon's instead, say, level 24; then he's ECL 28 and the band is four levels. Or if he's level 27, then he's ECL 31 and only CR 24 encounters would give them both normal experience.

All of which goes to say that Xykon gaining experience isn't a good indicator that Redcloak's gained four levels...which is what I was saying.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not really. Xykon is gaining experience on some of these encounters. That does not say Redcloak is not gaining experience for other encounters Team Evil tackles.

Besides, XP is usually calculated based on the group's average level in the games I've been in, and we have no clue what that average would be (MITD alone sees to that).

[Jasdoif]

Xykon is gaining experience on some of these encounters. That does not say Redcloak is not gaining experience for other encounters Team Evil tackles.

Like I (think I) said, Xykon gaining experience during an encounter doesn't automatically mean Redcloak's gaining tons of experience for the same encounter.

Besides, XP is usually calculated based on the group's average level in the games I've been in, and we have no clue what that average would be (MITD alone sees to that).

Hmm....If such a house rule were in play, then Redcloak would be gaining the same amount of experience as Xykon is. Which means Redcloak would only be gaining experience when Xykon is gaining experience...and if that's as rare as Xykon makes it sound like, it's even less likely Redcloak's gained four levels from these excursions.

[Quartz]

Xykon is gaining experience on some of these encounters.

Redcloak must be earning tonnes of XP from those. Oona too.

[gerryq]

Yeah overall he seems both less obsessed with revenge and hating humans and more obsessed with finally finishing the plan, which is a mixed bag for the Order. It’s hard to evaluate how much the increased recklessness is just growing desperation versus if there are other factors, but it seems clear his outlook has been changing.

Maybe he's just getting a bad vibe about things. He doesn't *know* that MitD has been mis-marking doors... but he knows something is wrong and he wants to push forward.

Or just maybe... TDO has broken precedent and contacted him.

[Doug Lampert]

Like I (think I) said, Xykon gaining experience during an encounter doesn't automatically mean Redcloak's gaining tons of experience for the same encounter.

Hmm....If such a house rule were in play, then Redcloak would be gaining the same amount of experience as Xykon is. Which means Redcloak would only be gaining experience when Xykon is gaining experience...and if that's as rare as Xykon makes it sound like, it's even less likely Redcloak's gained four levels from these excursions.

Average Party Level (APL) experience awards were the standard rule in 3.0, up through Savage Species which changed the rule to individual awards and 3.5 continued with the Savage Species method as the standard.

If a DM is using APL awards, I assume he's using the 3.0 rule, either because he didn't notice the change in 3.5, or he doesn't want to bother calculating individual awards, or he doesn't like it that people who fall behind trivially and quickly catch up.

Mostly I assume the DM simply never noticed the change, because internet discussions showed people thinking APL was the rule for the entire life of 3.5.

[Jasdoif]

....or he doesn't like it that people who fall behind trivially and quickly catch up.

I thought that was the intent of awarding XP by individual character level, reinforcing the whole "don't worry if you lose a level or make a bunch of magic items, you'll catch up with the party soon enough" concept. And/or a bandaid for dealing with level-adjustment-bearing templates acquired during play.

[Doug Lampert]

I thought that was the intent of awarding XP by individual character level, reinforcing the whole "don't worry if you lose a level or make a bunch of magic items, you'll catch up with the party soon enough" concept. And/or a bandaid for dealing with level-adjustment-bearing templates acquired during play.

Yep, that was the intent, some GMs don't like that intent.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, it does lead to killstealing and fights about that.

[Jasdoif]

Yep, that was the intent, some GMs don't like that intent.

I guess that could explain the level-independent XP award variant in Unearthed Arcana with its diminishing XP value as levels increase; resulting in a similar effect that closes the distance between party levels but never fully lets someone catch up, while also making XP rewards independent of the level of the characters/party gaining them.

[Aaron L]

I just love that Belkar and Minrah are now buddies who share whispers during briefings. That speech she gave about the people you meet after a personal change only knowing the new you applied just as heavily to Belkar as it did to her. She only knows Belkar as a laid-back, introspective, cool snarky guy... with no concept of his past as an amoral omnicidal freakbox.

So, what does everyone think? Has Belkar passed into Good Alignment yet? I personally believe he actually has. Now that doesn't mean he has atoned for all the Evil he was responsible for in the past, but his attitude is definitely Good now, in my opinion.

And as they had discussed, it happened so gradually that you couldn't actually pinpoint a moment when it happened. Eventually it was just how Belkar is.

[hroþila]

So, what does everyone think? Has Belkar passed into Good Alignment yet? I personally believe he actually has. Now that doesn't mean he has atoned for all the Evil he was responsible for in the past, but his attitude is definitely Good now, in my opinion.

Gods, no. He is displaying a good attitude, not a Good attitude. Good has higher standards than just "don't wantonly kill everyone, and acknowledge other people's right to exist". Even if this prevented him from being Evil, there's a whole Neutral world out there in D&D.

[Kantaki]

So, what does everyone think? Has Belkar passed into Good Alignment yet? I personally believe he actually has. Now that doesn't mean he has atoned for all the Evil he was responsible for in the past, but his attitude is definitely Good now, in my opinion.

Belkar good? No. Most certainly not.
But he is definitely on the slow, painful climb towards a neutral alignment.

Mind you, I'm not saying that given enough time, should he spend the rest of his live doing good to make up for the horrid little monster he used to be he wouldn't qualify in the end.

Unfortunately he's unlikely to have that time, so unless Belkar pulls some big selfless sacrifice stuff the shift from pretending not to be a absolute monster to actually not being one is to little to late.

Right now? He's lucky if he makes it into the Chaotic Neutral bin.
Depends who gets to judge him I guess.

[Peelee]

So, what does everyone think? Has Belkar passed into Good Alignment yet? I personally believe he actually has. Now that doesn't mean he has atoned for all the Evil he was responsible for in the past, but his attitude is definitely Good now, in my opinion.

What do you consider makes someone Good?

[Ron Miel]

So, what does everyone think? Has Belkar passed into Good Alignment yet?

Don't forget that only two days ago he suffered pain when his clasp was activated. He's still somewhere south of neutral.

[bunsen_h]

I just love that Belkar and Minrah are now buddies who share whispers during briefings. That speech she gave about the people you meet after a personal change only knowing the new you applied just as heavily to Belkar as it did to her. She only knows Belkar as a laid-back, introspective, cool snarky guy... with no concept of his past as an amoral omnicidal freakbox.

She probably got some suggestion of it from the briefing she got from Elan.

EDIT: Which leads me to wonder how much insight Belkar got from hearing about himself and his actions from a somewhat-rose-tinted external viewpoint.

[halfeye]

Hmm....If such a house rule were in play, then Redcloak would be gaining the same amount of experience as Xykon is. Which means Redcloak would only be gaining experience when Xykon is gaining experience...and if that's as rare as Xykon makes it sound like, it's even less likely Redcloak's gained four levels from these excursions.

I play computer games, not D&D. However the amount of experience required to go up a level typically increases as you go up in levels, so if Xycon gets enough to go up two levels, then if Redcloak gets the same experience he should go up more levels than two, depending on how far behind Xycon in levels he is, maybe five or six.

[Peelee]

I play computer games, not D&D. However the amount of experience required to go up a level typically increases as you go up in levels, so if Xycon gets enough to go up two levels, then if Redcloak gets the same experience he should go up more levels than two, depending on how far behind Xycon in levels he is, maybe five or six.

Nothing indicates Xykon has gone up a level though. Just that he's gotten experience.

Also, at high levels like that, Reddie wouldnt gain nearly as many levels even if the rest were true.

[Jasdoif]

I play computer games, not D&D. However the amount of experience required to go up a level typically increases as you go up in levels, so if Xycon gets enough to go up two levels, then if Redcloak gets the same experience he should go up more levels than two, depending on how far behind Xycon in levels he is, maybe five or six.

D&D (3.5, anyway), accomplishes that effect by combining a gentle linear increase in level-to-next-level requirements with a sharper scaling down how much experience you actually receive based on your level. (Experience points are also consumed by some spells and magic item crafting, so applying the exponential-like effect as XP comes in simplifies that math) With an average-party-level rule like Rogar Demonblud describes, only that linear increase applies; so if Xykon were to get two levels, Redcloak would probably get two or three levels, depending on what Xykon's level is (going from 17-20 takes about as much XP as going from 27-29 does).