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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Is the CR on this construct ok?

    This was created using some rules I made to govern the creation of constructs that rely on spell-like abilities instead of fists to damage a foe.
    It seems a bit unbalanced. Suggestions?

    Disintegrate turret
    Size/Type: Tiny Construct
    Hit Dice: 12d10+72+40 (178 hp)
    Initiative: +5
    Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) (can't run)
    Armor Class: 35 (+2 size, +1 dex, +6 natural armor, +6 armor, +6 deflection, +4 shield), touch 19, flat-footed 34
    Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+2
    Attack: +10 slam (1d4+1) or Disintegrate +10 ranged touch (24d6, DC 20 fortitude save for 5d6)
    Full Attack: +10 slam (1d4+1) or Disintegrate +10 ranged touch (24d6, DC 20 fortitude save for 5d6)
    Space/Reach: 2 ft./0 ft.
    Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
    Special Qualities: Construct traits, Continuous spell-like ability, SR 16, fast healing 8, hardness 27, Can use spell-like abilities as though they were spells
    Saves: Fort +10, Ref +11, Will +10
    Abilities: Str 12, Dex 12, Con -, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 11
    Skills: +17 spot, +17 listen
    Feats: Improved counterspell, Improved initiative, Alertness, Spell Penetration
    Environment: Any magically defended fortress
    Organization: Solitary, pair, or squad (3-6)
    Challenge Rating: 14
    Treasure: Whatever it is guarding
    Alignment: As creator
    Advancement: —
    Level Adjustment: —

    Created as guards by powerful spellcasters, they are more intelligent and versatile then golems but also more expensive.

    Combat

    Spell-like abilities
    At will-Disintegrate, any 1st level arcane or divine spell or cantrip. Caster level 12; save DC 16+spell level.

    Continuous spell-like ability
    A Disintegrate turret can have continuosly active any spell-like ability it can use at will that has a fixed duration of 1 round/level or more than 1 minute.
    They can be dispeled but the Disintegrate turret can reactivate them on it's turn as a move action. It can activate or deactivate any number of these as a move action.

    Construction
    A Disintegrate turret’s body made from 50 pounds of adamantine. It's legs (required for movement) are made of 20 pounds of adamantine. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check. Assembling the legs requires a DC 25 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 25 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.
    CL 12th; Craft Construct, Craft wonderous item, shield, disintegrate, caster must be at least 12th level; Price 258,000 gp; Cost 148,000 gp + 8,640 XP.

    Magic Missile turret
    Size/Type: Tiny Construct
    Hit Dice: 1d10+1+40 (46 hp)
    Initiative: +0
    Speed: 0 ft. (0 squares)
    Armor Class: 12 (+2 size, -5 dex, +1 deflection, +4 shield), touch 8, flat-footed 12
    Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-12
    Attack: Magic missile (1d4+1)
    Full Attack: Magic missile (1d4+1)
    Space/Reach: 2 ft./0 ft.
    Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
    Special Qualities: Construct traits, hardness 11, SR 11
    Saves: Fort +1, Ref -4, Will -1
    Abilities: Str 0, Dex 0, Con -, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 6
    Skills: +1 spot
    Feats: Alertness
    Environment: Any magically defended fortress
    Organization: Solitary, pair, or squad (3-6)
    Challenge Rating: 2
    Treasure: Whatever it is guarding
    Alignment: As creator
    Advancement: -
    Level Adjustment: —

    Spell-like abilities
    At will-magic missile. Caster level 1.

    Construction
    A Magic missile turret’s body made from 50 pounds of Iron. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.
    CL 6th; Craft Construct, Craft wonderous item, shield, magic missile, caster must be at least 6th level; Price 4,000 gp; Cost 2,000 gp + 160 XP.
    Last edited by GoC; 2007-10-28 at 12:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Noone?
    text

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Generally, people wait at least until their homebrew is on the second page before bumping.

    As for CR, run it through Vorpal Tribbles CR Thingy.
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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    I think it might have a bit of a low CR, actually. I'd test it a few times and correct accordingly.

    Also:
    any spell available to a 1st level caster
    Can you say, bag of worms, opened?
    There's a whole host of issues following that statement. I am not a rules lawyer, but there are plenty of alternate casting systems in supplements, and many of them are defined by 'caster' or 'caster levels'. Would this include things like Shadow magic?

    And last, but not least: Is this inspired by Portal? It seems like we're getting plenty of Portal references in Homebrew lately... you might even say that we're getting a Portal Storm of them.

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilveryCord View Post
    Can you say, bag of worms, opened?
    There's a whole host of issues following that statement. I am not a rules lawyer, but there are plenty of alternate casting systems in supplements, and many of them are defined by 'caster' or 'caster levels'. Would this include things like Shadow magic?

    And last, but not least: Is this inspired by Portal? It seems like we're getting plenty of Portal references in Homebrew lately... you might even say that we're getting a Portal Storm of them.
    Hmm...
    Didn't know about the alternate casting systems.
    I don't know what Shadow magic is.
    What is Portal?

    Gwyn_ap_Nud: Sorry. I'l keep that in mind.
    Fax_Celestis' method gave a CR of 17 which this obviously isn't. And removing it's bonus hitpoints reduces it's CR to 10. I don't think those hitpoints warrent a CR increase of 7...

    It also gives the Tarrasque a CR of 41.
    Last edited by GoC; 2007-10-24 at 09:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    I'm not sure how you get the save. DC 16 + spell level? What's giving it the +6 modifier? It's best stat is a +1.

    Also, an at will Disintegrate coupled with fast healing/high hardness make it something hard to take down.

    A 12 HD construct has all poor saves, thus it doesn't have +10 base saves, as it looks like you set it to be.
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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    Hmm...
    Didn't know about the alternate casting systems.
    I don't know what Shadow magic is.
    What is Portal?

    Gwyn_ap_Nud: Sorry. I'l keep that in mind.
    Fax_Celestis' method gave a CR of 17 which this obviously isn't.
    24d6 with a fort save of 22 for 5d6? Every round? At level 12, a fighter with constitution 18 has a 50% chance of making the save; while your average wizard, only has a 10% chance of passing that save. And they have to make it every turn? Something tells me that a CR of 19 is not that far off.

    Now let's do damage:

    A level 12 fighter, with 18 constitution will have an average of about 109 hit points. With a Fortitude modifier of +12, he has a 50% (11-20) chance of making his saves.
    A level 12 wizard, likely only having 10 constitution, has an average of about 26 hit points. With a Fortitude modifier of +4, he has 10% (19-20) chance of passing his saves.

    26d6 damage averages out to 78 damage. This is enough to one-shot a wizard AT MINIMUM DAMAGE; and enough to bring the fighter down to around 25% of his hit points.

    5d6 damage averages out to 15 hit points. It takes two hits to kill the wizard at average damage, and kills at maximum. The fighter, on the other hand, will take about seven hits to kill him. If he passes all his saves.

    And at 3-6 shots a turn, this is a TPK waiting to happen.

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    Hmm...
    Didn't know about the alternate casting systems.
    I don't know what Shadow magic is.
    Shadow magic: One of the three alternative styles of magic outlined in Tome of Magic, along with Pact magic (which isn't even close to spells) and Truename magic. Shadow magic is basically a facelifted arcane which is more difficult to disrupt and with a different array of spells.

    My suggestion: Don't worry about that and just write "1st level arcane spells".

    What is Portal?

    Gwyn_ap_Nud: Sorry. I'l keep that in mind.
    Fax_Celestis' method gave a CR of 17 which this obviously isn't.
    It also gives the Tarrasque a CR of 41.
    Portal: Well, it's a videogame. So far, I've seen three equipment adaptations for the portal gun and a prestige class based off of the gun. These constructs remind me of the Turrets in Portal, which is the only reason why I mentioned it.

    I got a 17 too with Fax_Celestis' method, so I assume we're both doing it correctly. I think it might just be a bit biased towards simpler tank-ish creatures. It's still a useful tool, but for more complex creatures you might want to take it with a grain of salt.

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lochar View Post
    I'm not sure how you get the save. DC 16 + spell level? What's giving it the +6 modifier? It's best stat is a +1.

    Also, an at will Disintegrate coupled with fast healing/high hardness make it something hard to take down.

    A 12 HD construct has all poor saves, thus it doesn't have +10 base saves, as it looks like you set it to be.
    When I came up with the idea for a spell turret I put the DCs at 10+2xhighest spell level (less than an equivalent level wizard). This is too high isn't it?
    It needs the high saves (in this case +highest level spell to all saves) because it has low hd for a construct and lacks the magic immunity that golems have.

    Justyn:Hmm...
    When you put it like that it does sound overpowered.
    But wouldn't most of them have some sort of bonus on saves?
    And at that level your average wizard will have 18 CON after items.
    At level 17 a fighter will make his save 80%-90% of the time and a wizard would kill it with a couple of disintegrates of his own.

    SilveryCord:Thanks.
    Last edited by GoC; 2007-10-24 at 09:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    If you're giving it special abilities above and beyond it's status as a construct, then according to the Improving Monsters part of the SRD, at a minimum that's going to add +2 or more to the CR.

    Standard DC for spells is 10 + mental stat you cast from modifier + spell level.

    Even if you set it to cast off str or dex, that's still at best 11+ spell level.
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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    HOLY SWEET MOTHER OF MAYHEM! (O.O)

    CR:12? what are you smoking?

    Try CR:18+

    Try a magic missle turret, they are mean, REALLY mean.
    Last edited by Kayoden Usoden; 2007-10-24 at 09:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayoden Usoden View Post
    HOLY SWEET MOTHER OF MAYHEM! (O.O)

    CR:12? what are you smoking?

    Try CR:18+

    Try a magic missle turret, they are mean, REALLY mean.
    CR 12 is a little low, but it's not that big a deal. Most core creatures are over-CR'd anyway.

    Considering how many resources you should *actually* have to spend to kill a creature of appropriate CR, the Monster Manual, and many campaigns, err on the side of caution and usually overcost creatures.

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lochar View Post
    If you're giving it special abilities above and beyond it's status as a construct, then according to the Improving Monsters part of the SRD, at a minimum that's going to add +2 or more to the CR.

    Standard DC for spells is 10 + mental stat you cast from modifier + spell level.

    Even if you set it to cast off str or dex, that's still at best 11+ spell level.
    +2 Cr...
    While that technicaly has already been factored in 14 CR does sound about right.

    DCs:I had a choice between giving it genius level intelect that doesn't really fit for a consruct or giving it awful save DCs. (DC 17? the fighter can now get a first level cleric buff and take it out at his lesiure)

    Kayoden Usoden: Heh. You should have seen the Universal Turret(TM)...

    Magic Missile Turret (using the secret spell turret rules):
    Size/Type: Tiny Construct
    Hit Dice: 1d10+1+40 (46 hp)
    Initiative: +0
    Speed: 0 ft. (0 squares)
    Armor Class: 12 (+2 size, -5 dex, +1 deflection, +4 shield), touch 8, flat-footed 12
    Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-12
    Attack: Magic missile (1d4+1)
    Full Attack: Magic missile (1d4+1)
    Space/Reach: 2 ft./0 ft.
    Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
    Special Qualities: Construct traits, hardness 11, SR 11
    Saves: Fort +1, Ref -4, Will -1
    Abilities: Str 0, Dex 0, Con -, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 6
    Skills: +1 spot
    Feats: Alertness
    Environment: Any magically defended fortress
    Organization: Solitary, pair, or squad (3-6)
    Challenge Rating: 2
    Treasure: Whatever it is guarding
    Alignment: As creator
    Advancement: -
    Level Adjustment: —

    Spell-like abilities
    At will-magic missile. Caster level 1.

    Construction
    A Magic missile turret’s body made from 50 pounds of Iron. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.
    CL 6th; Craft Construct, Craft wonderous item, shield, magic missile, caster must be at least 6th level; Price 4,000 gp; Cost 2,000 gp + 160 XP.
    Last edited by GoC; 2007-10-24 at 10:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    drop one of the feats and do supernatural transformation (Distintegrate) then. That'd change the save for that to 10 + 1/2 HD + cha modifier. Giving it a 16 save. Which would be a good bit closer to the 14 CR. Leave the rest of the saves as is.
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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Ummm... haven't looked at the numbers but...
    "Racial bonuses are your friends"?
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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lochar View Post
    drop one of the feats and do supernatural transformation (Distintegrate) then. That'd change the save for that to 10 + 1/2 HD + cha modifier. Giving it a 16 save. Which would be a good bit closer to the 14 CR. Leave the rest of the saves as is.
    16?
    Most CR 14 creatures have save DCs around 20.
    Abyssal Greater Basilisk (CR 12) has a DC 21 save or die for example.
    The Ice Devil (CR 13) has save DCs as high as 23.

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Then give it better stats. That's all I can tell you. Horrid mental stats give horrid saves.
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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lochar View Post
    Then give it better stats. That's all I can tell you. Horrid mental stats give horrid saves.
    Hmm...
    How about I make it's spell-like abilities come from an innate magic item?
    That will give save DCs of 10+1.5*spell level.
    Is DC 19 ok here?
    And what do you think of the Magic missile turret?

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    You make it come from an innate magical item, I really feel sorry for you when your players disable the turrent, take it apart, and now have a magical item that has an at will disintegrate. :P

    Didn't look over the magic missile turret.
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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lochar View Post
    You make it come from an innate magical item, I really feel sorry for you when your players disable the turrent, take it apart, and now have a magical item that has an at will disintegrate. :P
    Ah, but due to the fact it was never designed for use by a living creature they recieve a -15 circustance penalty on the use magic device check!

    Do you have any ideas for rules to design a spell turret?
    Mine was to put an infinite use item in full plate, give it hd equal to caster level and then try and balance it.
    Last edited by GoC; 2007-10-25 at 02:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    Do you have any ideas for rules to design a spell turret?
    Mine was to put an infinite use item in full plate, give it hd equal to caster level and then try and balance it.
    DMG-II has a few spell turrets in it, as I recall.
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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    DMG-II has a few spell turrets in it, as I recall.
    They are intended primarily as traps not guards.
    And the CRs are definitely off.
    CR 2 for something with 200hp that hits you with 1d4+1 every round (no save or AC) while repairing 1d8+5 of itself?
    CR 7 for something only slightly less deadly than the one in the first post? (which got called CR 18 by one of the posters above)
    CR 10 for something that hits everyone with a DC 23 Wail of the Banshee each turn?
    Talk about TPK...

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    Default Re: Is the CR on this construct ok?

    I've updated the first post to reflect changes.
    Any comments on them or the Magic Missile turret are most welcome.
    Last edited by GoC; 2007-10-28 at 12:18 AM.

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