Cliffport's prison cells

[Kafit]

I really hope the CPPD doesn't operate that way. It means all the civilians and officers killed were for...

Yeah.

Hey, it's not a hill I want to die on. (Did I use that one correctly?)
I just think it's funny and appropriate enough for a self aware fantasy parody. I can totally see someone going 'Meh, they are going to escape anyway no matter how hard we try, so why not build it in a way that hold them long enough for them to leave after, but cheap enough to not be a problem to rebuild. And preferably with an easy exit, so they don't need to kill on their way out."

But if you don't like/buy it. I don't see any argument I could use to convince you.

[understatement]

Just because I bring up a problem does not mean I have a personal bone to pick with the story. It's something to prod at in my free time, not keep me up at night. I very much like the arc. I'm puzzled by the problem. All answers given were reasonable, but I was looking for an in-comic explanation, for which there was none. I hope I can enjoy a work and pretty-much-in-good-faith pick at what I view is a plot-hole without being preemptively cut off as having a problem with the story.

Cheers.

tldr; I like discussing stuff, and that's...kind of it for this thread? Not a huge deal. Not the most serious thing out there.

Again, cheers.

[Kantaki]

I really hope the CPPD doesn't operate that way. It means all the civilians and officers killed were for...

Yeah.

Look, we're talking about major(-ish) heroes and villains here, not run of the mill criminals.
Those people are going to break out anyway.
Isn't it better to safe yourself a lot of pain (and gold and men) and put them into cells specifically designed for it?
Doubly so when they're probably somebody else problem afterwards?

Less bothersome then if they have to get creative, really.
There's a reason the Joker's cell has a revolving door installed.
(Okay, that reason is Batman did it, but still...)

[Kafit]

It seems I didn't convey what I meant to convey.

I just meant that I'm short of arguments that I find interesting or funny to defend the point.
Maybe I should avoid using expressions of wich I have only a vague understanding of the meaning... But I love using expressions of which I have only a vague understanding of the meaning.

I was basically trying to say "out of cool arguments, I'm out"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It seems I didn't convey what I meant to convey.

I just meant that I'm short of arguments that I find interesting or funny to defend the point.
Maybe I should avoid using expressions of wich I have only a vague understanding of the meaning... But I love using expressions of which I have only a vague understanding of the meaning.

I was basically trying to say "out of cool arguments, I'm out"

Yeah, it doesn't quite mean that. "This is not a hill I'm willing to die on" and its variants effectively transmit how attached you are to an argument - if you are not willing to "die on that hill" it means that you do not consider the argument worth defending that much - i.e. that if the opposite party feels that strongly about it, you are happy to concede, even if there are still ways you could continue to defend your position.

Grey Wolf

[Kafit]

Yeah, it doesn't quite mean that. "This is not a hill I'm willing to die on" and its variants effectively transmit how attached you are to an argument - if you are not willing to "die on that hill" it means that you do not consider the argument worth defending that much - i.e. that if the opposite party feels that strongly about it, you are happy to concede, even if there are still ways you could continue to defend your position.

Grey Wolf

Ok, so my answer was taken that way, because that's exactly what it meant...

Thank you for the explanation. I'm used to use poorly understood expression in verbal discussion, but I realize that speaking helps me convey that I'm not sure I'm using the right expression. Wich of course writing does not allow. I'll try to do better.

[RatElemental]

And there's no way to shut down a sorcerer or divine caster's access to their spells.

Actually there are several ways to do this. Glue rings with fiendslayer crystals on them to evil prisoner's fingers and you reduce their ECL by 1 per crystal (this would stop Thog too). Damage or drain their casting stat to below 10 and they can't cast at all. Knock any mental stat to 0 and they go comatose. Reduce strength to 0 and they turn into a ragdoll. Reduce dex to 0 and they lock in place like a statue. Cast flesh to stone and they actually do turn into a statue (but are still alive and can easily be restored).

However as has been pointed out multiple times, this was the CCPD, not the Redeemery. They have different goals, resources and policies.

[dps]

The Chief of the Cliffport Police was already dead, creating confusion in the chain of command, so no one was really in charge to order "Nale" and Thog to be put in an anti-magic cell. And The Chief might have been the only one competent enough to think to do that anyway.

[Darth Paul]

The Chief of the Cliffport Police was already dead, creating confusion in the chain of command, so no one was really in charge to order "Nale" and Thog to be put in an anti-magic cell. And The Chief might have been the only one competent enough to think to do that anyway.

This is an excellent point. If I remember right, a rookie had just more or less installed himself as Chief on no more than the basis that he was most upset about the Chief's murder, and the rest of the CPPD was... can I say "less than competent"?

And getting back to the "bind and gag your prisoners" point, this is something that I, in real life, have been involved in with mentally ill prisoners who try to hurt themselves and try to bite/spit on staff; they go into restraints and have face masks put on. It is a huge, risky, hairy process and a lot of officers get hurt in minor or sometimes major ways from time to time. It's not a thing we look forward to. It's definitely not something you would do for a couple of newly arrested prisoners awaiting trial, on the basis that they might do something out of line; it's to prevent someone repeating a harmful behavior. And we still have to let them eat and use the toilet, which means taking the mask off and removing some of the restraints; also not fun.

The vast majority (way over 99%) of people in jail and prison walk around unfettered most of the time.

[mjasghar]

The standard fantasy tactic is manacles that restrict casting - usually via some material or enchantment.
This was early in the comic though so there was more of a tendency to Doylian instead of Watsonian strips.

[Reboot]

Allowing a midlevel caster access to their spellbook is a recipe for disaster. And there's no way to shut down a sorcerer or divine caster's access to their spells.

100% shut down every spell? No. But if you take all spell component pouches and divine focuses/holy symbols, you shut down a *lot* of spells, even for sorcerers/bards/clerics, unless they have Eschew Materials. And then there are the possibilities for interfering with somatic gestures - a sorcerer has trouble casting any sort of spell while wearing armour, and a bard in medium or heavy armour. So stick them in a cheap breastplate and mitten-style gauntlets. And while the Silence spell is too short a duration to really help, the concept bears research for a college project by an eager would-be wizard.

[Squire Doodad]

The Chief of the Cliffport Police was already dead, creating confusion in the chain of command, so no one was really in charge to order "Nale" and Thog to be put in an anti-magic cell. And The Chief might have been the only one competent enough to think to do that anyway.

This seems like the most plausible answer aside from "antimagic cells are vastly more expensive". Cliffport, for all its wealth, has a bit of a problem with the police force being incompetent at their job. The only people with a shred of efficiency were the late chief and a rookie who doesn't know standard procedure quite yet, so odds are no one actually thought of putting them in a special or otherwise reinforced cell.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This seems like the most plausible answer aside from "antimagic cells are vastly more expensive".

Has anyone offered a plausible reason why a barbarian and a murderer that have displayed no magical abilities would even need to be placed in antimagic cells rather than regular ones? "Nale" cast no spells, he just went on a murdering rampage.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

The CPPD was specifically told Nale was a sorcerer when they arrested 'him', which is why they took the time to bind and gag him at the scene.

[Fyraltari]

Also they arrested him in what looked like the middle of a magic ritual of some kind.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Has anyone offered a plausible reason why a barbarian and a murderer that have displayed no magical abilities would even need to be placed in antimagic cells rather than regular ones? "Nale" cast no spells, he just went on a murdering rampage.

Grey Wolf

For the murdering rampage, I grant you, but when captured "Nale" is apparantly setting up some form of ritual (last panel), and "Elan" strongly suggests he is a caster (panel 4). The charge is 417 counts of murder and one of attempt to summon a demon.

EDIT: Blast! Ninja'd twice!

[understatement]

And getting back to the "bind and gag your prisoners" point, this is something that I, in real life, have been involved in with mentally ill prisoners who try to hurt themselves and try to bite/spit on staff; they go into restraints and have face masks put on. It is a huge, risky, hairy process and a lot of officers get hurt in minor or sometimes major ways from time to time. It's not a thing we look forward to. It's definitely not something you would do for a couple of newly arrested prisoners awaiting trial, on the basis that they might do something out of line; it's to prevent someone repeating a harmful behavior. And we still have to let them eat and use the toilet, which means taking the mask off and removing some of the restraints; also not fun.

The vast majority (way over 99%) of people in jail and prison walk around unfettered most of the time.

Back into the fray I go...

I'm not learned on real life prison procedures, so I won't say anything on that point. In-comic wise, however, let's say Cliffport managed to subdue...Tsukiko, for example. Several officers' lives are lost, hundreds of civvies are killed, and they put her -- without restraining her magic in any way -- into jail.

She just teleports right back out.

How to prevent that? a) antimagic cells. If no such cells are available (which I'd be about, since I believe a book commentary somewhere mentioned Cliffport was a bigger trade city than even Azure City, and the former has a school of wizards down by the block), then fine, tie her up and gag her. The alternative is having her teleport right back out and going back to killing innocent people again.

And given that Nale is able to use Dimension Door later (and that V, even paralyzed, is able to cast Suggestion) means that the CPPD really needs to upgrade their prison or get hundreds of people killed again.

[Precure]

It's...bad writing.

*runs away*

[Fyraltari]

It's...bad writing.

*runs away*

Bit characters being incompetents is not bad writing.

[Aidan]

Back into the fray I go...

I'm not learned on real life prison procedures, so I won't say anything on that point. In-comic wise, however, let's say Cliffport managed to subdue...Tsukiko, for example. Several officers' lives are lost, hundreds of civvies are killed, and they put her -- without restraining her magic in any way -- into jail.

She just teleports right back out.

How to prevent that? a) antimagic cells. If no such cells are available (which I'd be about, since I believe a book commentary somewhere mentioned Cliffport was a bigger trade city than even Azure City, and the former has a school of wizards down by the block), then fine, tie her up and gag her. The alternative is having her teleport right back out and going back to killing innocent people again.

And given that Nale is able to use Dimension Door later (and that V, even paralyzed, is able to cast Suggestion) means that the CPPD really needs to upgrade their prison or get hundreds of people killed again.

I honestly think that they have at least a handful of anti-magic cells but they just didn't (or couldn't) put "Nale" in there. Consider the following,

If memory serves the highest level spell that the Order had seen Nale cast at that point is a first level spell, so it is entirely possible that (off panel) Roy could have mentioned that Nale could hardly be considered a powerful spell caster. In a city with a school of wizards, any anti-magic cells may be already in use by, or being saved for criminals whose threat comes from their spellcasting abilities.

In fact, considering the following factors, this may have contributed to Nale choosing Cliffport. If Nale already was at least 8th level in Sorcerer, and he knew that he wouldn't have been thrown in a anti-magic cell, he could have used dimensional door to escape.

As for what would happen if the Cliffport Police Department apprehended Tsukiko, well then how they treat her depends on whether they have anti magic cells or not. If they do, they put her in there. If not then maybe they get help from someone at the wizard school to hold her.

I think the point that many of us are making is that, for some reason or another "Nale" was placed in an ordinary cell. This does not mean that Cliffport Jail does not have any anti-magic cells.

[RatElemental]

When it comes to trying to imprison Tsukiko, tying her up wouldn't make one bit of difference to her ability to teleport, its one and only component is verbal. Even a gag would do nothing if she picked up a single feat (silent spell).

However, dimensional shackles are half the price compared to antimagic shackles and (I don't have the SHBG in front of me to check) I'd guess at least an order of magnitude cheaper than installing a permanent antimagic zone, and arguably the shackles just have to be on the subject's wrists and not chained together in order to function. Those would keep her from teleporting at all. The same applies to the antimagic shackles.

In other words, it'd make more sense for the CPPD to put unconnected metal bracelets on single prisoners than sink the cost into a whole cellblock, unless they plan to house dozens of lawbreaking spellcasters concurrently. Maybe they have a couple pairs on hand and Elan got out while they were being brought from the store room or some wires got crossed and no one thought to go get them in the first place.

[Jasdoif]

However, dimensional shackles are half the price compared to antimagic shackles and (I don't have the SHBG in front of me to check) I'd guess at least an order of magnitude cheaper than installing a permanent antimagic zone....

66,000gp to cover a stronghold space with sigils of antimagic, which could be two prison components for a total of twelve prison cells.

[Knaight]

Bit characters being incompetents is not bad writing.

Though in this case they might have just been in over their head*. The vast majority of people this jail would likely have seen wouldn't be professional adventurers, and among professional adventurers there's plenty that don't cast spells and aren't nearly as strong as Thog, though lock picking and the like may also have worked. For petty street crime, overly drunk civilians, even violent crime by ordinary people, it's probably plenty.

*The whole arrow hint not landing for most of them does indicate some incompetence regardless.

[RatElemental]

66,000gp to cover a stronghold space with sigils of antimagic, which could be two prison components for a total of twelve prison cells.

I stand corrected. Cells do indeed make more sense than shackles then, which would explain them not having them on hand for the arrest.

[Darth Paul]

Though in this case they might have just been in over their head*. The vast majority of people this jail would likely have seen wouldn't be professional adventurers, and among professional adventurers there's plenty that don't cast spells and aren't nearly as strong as Thog, though lock picking and the like may also have worked. For petty street crime, overly drunk civilians, even violent crime by ordinary people, it's probably plenty.

This is probably an even better point. High-level adventurers generally just don't go on murder sprees and get arrested (although they do go on murder sprees against monsters- different topic altogether). This was a deliberate set-up by Nale, knowing in advance what kind of police he was dealing with. He also made sure to kill the only truly competent member of the PD in the process.

Unlike Azure City, where we know the rulers have the Sapphire Guard and private forces of ninjas and samurai and so on to deal with adventurers when they need to, it looks like Cliffport doesn't have any official high-level force that fights rogue villians. Maybe wizards like Fyron and other high-level residents (like the wizard school) take it upon themselves as a civic duty to challenge uppity sorcerors or whatnot on an unoffical basis, sort of like superheroes in the DC and Marvel universes, while the regular police are kind of helpless to stop them. Actually, if you picture Nale as the equivalent of the Joker setting up a masterstroke of super-villiany, the analogy works; Cliffport is just a fantasy Gotham City. And as we know, the Joker always breaks out of Arkham Asylum.