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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    The psion is also a scholar, just one who studies the mind instead of the Weave.
    Historically, in AD&D, psionicists have been about the harmony between mind/body/spirit and are Con/Int/Wis-reliant, with Con roughly for psychometabolism, Int roughly for psychokinesis and I think at least half of psychoportation, Wis roughly for telepathy, metapsionics, and overall psionic strength.

    It sounds like 3e does things a little differently and makes them a little less meditative and body-mindful. I don't see why it's a problem for 5E to follow suit and make them more purely willpower-oriented. I *do* see a problem though, flavor-wise, from Athasian "psionicists" (Psionic Souls) having access to abilities like Fireball and Counterspell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Here's a thought. If you're running a Dark Sun campaign, file out any mention of "Arcane" from the sorcerer (or just about any class, really) and look at the results. What do you have? A class who can cast spells. None of the spells themselves are described as "arcane" or "divine". A spell is just a spell.

    Now, if you replace any notion of Arcane with Psionic, you have a class (or many classes) that fit in Athas just fine.
    Forget about the name. That's not the problem--"arcane" and "divine" aren't keywords in AD&D, they're just rough generalizations. The problem is that wizards do things one way and priests do things another, and psionicists do things yet a third way... and if someone is doing wizardly things like throwing Fireballs (psychokinetic Detonate behaves differently) or using Detect Magic or Dispel Magic or Silent Image or Mage Armor, you'd normally freak out and report them as an apparent Defiler who's probably wrecking your local ecosystem. And if Athasian psionicists are that similar to defilers, you'd expect them to be outcasts and pariahs too. But psionicsts aren't supposed to be outcasts on Athas.

    If you still want more, swap the Psionic Soul's Charisma dependencies with Intelligence (including Charisma Saving Throw proficiency to Intelligence Saving Throw Proficiency) and you have your perfect Psion (until an actual Psion becomes reality, which might as well never happen).
    Again, Psionicists are if anything more Wisdom-based than Int-based, but it would be more correct to say they rely on a harmony between body, mind, and spirit. And they do things recognizably differently than wizards, especially on Athas.

    It might be the case that Athas just doesn't make sense to run in anything but AD&D 2nd edition. Trying to replicate psionicists in 5E might be doomed to failure. Psionic Soul definitely isn't Athas-appropriate as written. Maybe though if you remove access to Conjuration, Evocation and Illusion spells, that might be okay.

    Non-Conjuration/Evocation/Illusion PHB sorcerer spells are:

    True Strike - Divination Cantrip
    Friends - Enchantment Cantrip
    Blade Ward - Abjuration Cantrip
    Mending - Transmutation Cantrip
    Prestidigitation - Transmutation Cantrip
    Chill Touch - Necromancy Cantrip
    Message - Transmutation Cantrip
    Charm Person - Enchantment 1
    Comprehend Languages - Divination 1
    Ray of Sickness - Necromancy 1
    Mage Armor - Abjuration 1
    Shield - Abjuration 1
    Jump - Transmutation 1
    Sleep - Enchantment 1
    Feather Fall - Transmutation 1
    Detect Magic - Divination 1
    Expeditious Retreat - Transmutation 1
    False Life - Necromancy 1
    Detect Thoughts - Divination 2
    Alter Self - Transmutation 2
    Enhance Ability - Transmutation 2
    Enlarge/Reduce - Transmutation 2
    Suggestion - Enchantment 2
    Levitate - Transmutation 2
    Spider Climb - Transmutation 2
    Knock - Transmutation 2
    Crown of Madness - Enchantment 2
    Blindness/Deafness - Necromancy 2
    Hold Person - Enchantment 2
    Darkvision - Transmutation 2
    See Invisibility - Divination 2
    Gaseous Form - Transmutation 3
    Haste - Transmutation 3
    Fly - Transmutation 3
    Blink - Transmutation 3
    Protection from Energy - Abjuration 3
    Slow - Transmutation 3
    Tongues - Divination 3
    Counterspell - Abjuration 3
    Water Breathing - Transmutation 3
    Water Walk - Transmutation 3
    Clairvoyance - Divination 3
    Dispel Magic - Abjuration 3
    Dominate Beast - Enchantment 4
    Stoneskin - Transmutation 4
    Confusion - Enchantment 4
    Polymorph - Transmutation 4
    Blight - Necromancy 4
    Banishment - Abjuration 4
    Dominate Person - Enchantment 5
    Telekinesis - Transmutation 5
    Hold Monster - Enchantment 5
    Animate Objects - Transmutation 5
    Globe of Invulnerability - Abjuration 6
    True Seeing - Divination 6
    Circle of Death - Necromancy 6
    Mass Suggestion - Enchantment 6
    Disintegrate - Transmutation 6
    Move Earth - Transmutation 6
    Eyebite - Necromancy 6
    Finger of Death - Necromancy 7
    Etherealness - Transmutation 7
    Reverse Gravity - Transmutation 7
    Power Word Stun - Enchantment 8
    Dominate Monster - Enchantment 8
    Time Stop - Transmutation 9
    Power Word Kill - Enchantment 9

    Any Darksun fans out there want to comment on how you'd feel about psionicists with access to the above abilities? Globe of Invulnerability feels weird to me and Finger of Death's zombiefication is outright wrong for a psionicist but others seem mostly okay.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-04-15 at 09:10 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Maybe they can steal from Bard and have the Psionic Die use the same mechanic as Bardic Inspiration with the difference being it's based off Intelligence and the Bard can only buff others not himself while the Psionic character can only buff himself not others.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Maybe they can steal from Bard and have the Psionic Die use the same mechanic as Bardic Inspiration with the difference being it's based off Intelligence and the Bard can only buff others not himself while the Psionic character can only buff himself not others.
    I'd be perfectly happy with that solution, there's no reason it should be this weird mechanic (which I've only seen in AD&D adaptations, I think the Black Hack) and not something like Bardic Inspiration or even Superiority Dice. Then the Feats can give you one additional die with an ability that uses it and an at will or passive ability you always have.
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  4. - Top - End - #124

    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    The random, uncontrolled nature is a bit off for all but the wilder concept. Works for wild talents, I think. If psionics are rare and poorly-understood, with the subclasses representing “wilders” who have learned to live with and harness, but not master (in the sense of self-mastery) their gift and power, it makes sense.

    Heck, it even works for a trained emotion-driven psychic who rides the highs and lows of his power. Still needs better fluff on the natural 1 replenishing a die size.

    I can even come up with fluff for why you can’t rest (except for a long rest) to restore it, but use might: you can’t control that well of inner power very well, so just tapping it to try to soothe it can set it bursting forth.
    Heh. For some reason that reminds me of writer's block: resting (i.e. procrastinating writing) doesn't do much, but sometimes just writing down the awful stuff and getting it out of the way frees up your brain to replace the awful stuff with something higher-quality. When you can't write, write!

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    A nice thing I just noticed about all the feats. They don't "conflict" with each other, in the sense that you basically never have to choose which ability to use in a given combat round. You can play a "psionic warlock", for instance, and grab all of those feats, still having a 20 charisma, ok Dex and Con. The fact that almost all of them are half-feats also helps a lot.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2020-04-15 at 09:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    A nice thing I just noticed about all the feats. They don't "conflict" with each other, in the sense that you basically never have to choose which ability to use in a given combat round. You can play a "psionic warlock", for instance, and grab all of those feats, still having a 20 charisma, ok Dex and Con. The fact that almost all of them are half-feats also helps a lot.
    Them leaning on half feats this much also greatly worries me, it could easily lead to another Elven Accuracy situation, which is nothing but power creep.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    The purpose of the mechanic is twofold. Whether you think these are worthy goals, or that it achieves them well, is worthy of discussion, but saying it has no purpose or is complexity-for-its-own-sake is, at best, debatable, and at worst, unhelpful if you want to see psionics actually make it into the game any time soon. Feedback needs to be more than, "This is dumb, do it like this other mechanic." You need to demonstrate an understanding of the goals they're trying to achieve, and give feedback that helps them achieve them, or that explains why those goals are not serving the fluff they're pushing.

    As I perceive it, the psionic talent die (hereafter abbreviated as "dΨ"), in all its size-changing glory, is meant to do two primary things:

    1. It is meant to enable a mechanic that can be used multiple times in a day, but not indefinitely.
    2. It is meant to keep how long you can use it as something you're always guessing, at least a little, on.


    It's clear their intent is that you have an absolute minimum of 4 uses of anything fueled by the die. Or, rather, of the die, which can fuel a large number of things.

    This is another point that the die is apparently meant to achieve, given that taking multiple subclasses, or taking the feat and the subclasses, doesn't give you more dice. The dΨ is like the power point pool from 3.5: it's a unified resource. Unlike the power point pool, it doesn't grow, except as you level. ...except, only the feat says it doesn't give you an extra one. Do you get multiple dice, each growing in their own independent right, for multiclassing into multiple psionic subclasses? Each dΨ usable only for its own subclass?

    SHOULD you?

    My read on it was that the dΨ is meant to be a unified resource, as I said, and that you run out when you run out. This is cool...ish...except that the more options you have, the more you'll want to use it to take advantage of them, and it all eats the same resource.

    On the other hand, if it's one dΨ per subclass, that's...closer to how I was imagining an eventual psion might work with disciplines. But also a lot more to track if you take advantage of it. Which is a bit counter to 5e's ethos.


    Now, going back to the two primary things, the points to consider and give feedback on are:

    • Are these two goals in line with what psionics even should be?
      • If not, why not?
      • This is where you would give feedback on why the idea of the dΨ, especially its randomness and "raw, uncontrolled" feel, don't mesh with what you think psionics should be, by explaining what you want psionics TO be and how this doesn't work for that.
    • Does the random nature of the die actually achieve point 2 very well?
      • Is there a better mechanic to achieve it?
      • If it doesn't achieve it, is it because it's too predictable or too unpredictable?
    • Does the random nature of it interfere too strongly with the ability to feel like you can use these powers "a lot?"
      • How much is "a lot?"
      • How many times should you be confident you can use it before it starts feeling like you're running low?
    • Does the way the randomness works into the various abilities make them too unreliable?
      • Is the fact that you can just try again next round, since it only diminishes in size if you score your maximum and thus only failed to be enough if you couldn't have succeeded anyway, mitigate this?


    This isn't exhaustive, but we need to focus on what we can glean as the goals from this, and why we either support or disapprove of the goals themselves, and whether the dΨ actually supports them. And, if not, why not, and possible ways to improve on it. "Just make it like superiority dice" is a possibility, but you have to explain what your goals in doing so are. And, if you do that, do you want to consider Battle Masters being "psionic" in nature? Do you want the same mechanic for psi as for maneuvers without them being the same thing, any more than you want spell slots and psionic slots to be the same thing? Any less?

    If we want to see psionics make it out of UA, we need to give WotC something more than "you screwed up. I hate it."

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Unless I'm missing something, Wild Talent looks extremely good for Dex-based classes and pure casters (especially those withOUT a psionic subclass, so the feat doesn't risk screwing over their class feature). Like, one of the best feats in the game good, considering you still get +1 to your main stat with it.

    If you're a rogue (or monk or ranger or dex fighter), this talent basically gives you (another) Expertise on every Dex skill, PLUS initiative, PLUS decent bonus damage.
    If you're a wizard, sorcerer, warlock, or bard, you get Expertise on a bunch of relevant skills PLUS on Counterspell rolls PLUS bonus damage to cantrips.

    Unrelated: man, this sorcerer sucks compared to the Aberrant Mind. That one was obviously overpowered compared to other sorcerer subclasses, but it at least created a unique-feeling character. This time around they managed to make the psionics boring yet unreliable, AND found a way to actually incentivize you NOT to take relevant psion-ish spells (since you can get them for "free" with Psionic Discovery). Psychic Sorcery is fine if you just want to avoid verbal components, but it's useless if you're trying to replicate Subtle Spell because you might whiff the roll. Overall, though, I honestly don't think the subclass works without at least an expanded spell list (if not automatic free spells).

    Also unrelated: the rogue and fighter subclasses look awesome and the feats do too; the only thing that makes me dislike them is the vagaries of the Psi Dice mechanic. As others in this thread have noted, it's super unlikely you'll lose your dice at higher levels, but before level 5 it's a 1 in 24 chance (not much less likely than rolling a natural 1). Maybe they could replace Psi Replenishment with something like, "You can meditate uninterrupted for 1 minute to restore your psi die to a d6." That way, a couple bad rolling streaks doesn't arbitrarily screw over your adventuring day at low levels. (No scaling for non-psi classes because yikes, those feats already scale enough. Maybe the psi classes could get improved replenishment that scales with your psi die?)

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    Having thought about it a bit more, if I were to redesign this, I would probably eliminate the size change from rolling, and only have size decrease with the powerful abilities that do it directly. Then I would eliminate going below a d4 (meaning you cannot use those powerful abilities if your die is a d4), but have the die size reset to maximum on a short rest, rather than a long one. This way, your main, basic abilities, such as the Psy Knight's Telekenetic strike is always available, while the stronger abilities become a powerful short rest resource, potentially tuned to be stronger than your average short rest resource, but coming with the side effect of weakening your always on abilities until the next rest.
    I agree with this. I like the concept of the changing dice, but it does seem a bit unnecessarily complex for what it is. And I've personally always been a little turned off by features that require a ton of text to make sense. Short and sweet is better, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Also to note on the rogue subclass:

    Also the same issue as all the other time they try to make a manifest weapon, what about when I find a magic weapon?
    I really like the Soulknife, but you make a valid point here. I'd love to use that [insert magic sword here], but can't? Definitely needs some help there.
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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    I agree with this. I like the concept of the changing dice, but it does seem a bit unnecessarily complex for what it is
    Could somebody making this claim please elaborate on it? I do get that there's complexity, here, but it's doing a specific job. What makes you say it's overly complex for the job it's doing?

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    I really like the Soulknife, but you make a valid point here. I'd love to use that [insert magic sword here], but can't? Definitely needs some help there.
    I really like the soulknife as well, and personally I think people on this forum put way too much stock in magic weapons. They always seem to work under the assumptions that
    a) You'll get a magic weapon
    b) The magic weapon will be of a type that works for your build normally. Ie bow for an archer, polearm for a PM etc.
    c) You wont get other magic items that are more valuable or useful than a magic weapon
    That's a lot of assumptions to critique something on the basis of in my opinion.

    The soulknife gets a magic weapon as part of the subclass that he
    a) Can never lose or have confiscated temporarily
    b) Can't have the damage traced back to him
    c) deals on of the best damage types
    d) works for his build
    e) never requires attunement

    Who cares if it doesnt stack with other magic weapons

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by clash View Post
    I really like the soulknife as well, and personally I think people on this forum put way too much stock in magic weapons. They always seem to work under the assumptions that
    a) You'll get a magic weapon
    b) The magic weapon will be of a type that works for your build normally. Ie bow for an archer, polearm for a PM etc.
    c) You wont get other magic items that are more valuable or useful than a magic weapon
    That's a lot of assumptions to critique something on the basis of in my opinion.

    The soulknife gets a magic weapon as part of the subclass that he
    a) Can never lose or have confiscated temporarily
    b) Can't have the damage traced back to him
    c) deals on of the best damage types
    d) works for his build
    e) never requires attunement

    Who cares if it doesnt stack with other magic weapons
    Again, I agree, and I'm likely to be playing a Soulknife as written very soon (conveniently my character died just this past Monday).

    I don't think not being able to use a magic weapon is that big of a deal, but it is a thing that should definitely be addressed.

    Also, for me at least, I don't really care so much about +X weapons. I'd much prefer that Weapon of Warning over there, or something similar. Plus, I love to homebrew items, so it's near and dear to me.
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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Could somebody making this claim please elaborate on it? I do get that there's complexity, here, but it's doing a specific job. What makes you say it's overly complex for the job it's doing?
    Perhaps interestingly, despite the fact that the comment to which you responded was one that said they agreed with my idea for a revision of this concept from the UA, I actually am not one that thinks the mechanic as presented is too complex. Maybe a bit complicated to explain, but once you get the idea, it is actually really simple. I think the better criticism would be that it is too random (especially with them putting in dice rolls in places that don't seem to need it), or that it doesn't do a good job of matching the wanted fantasy of psionics. In terms of simplicity though, I think it is pretty solid as is. Not the most simple thing, surely, but not particularly more complex than things like superiority dice, and way less complex than spellcasting.

    That being said, it is the other things I mentioned that I think are the bigger issue. The randomness and the fit of the mechanics to the fluff. Personally, I don't picture psionics as being so random. That being said, rigid, distinct powers, split over multiple tiers of power is what magic is in 5e. Psionics that is just magic, "but totally not because its psionics and uses points," gets zero interest from me. If psionics is to justify its existing as more than just another flavor of magic, it must have an important distinction from magic, both in terms of the lore and the mechanics. If that distinction is going to involve lesser control of your powers and thus an element of randomness in mechanics, that is fine. But that would probably not be my first choice for how to do it.

    What I like about the adjustments that I suggested was that, when done that way, it creates a distinct niche, both lore-wise and mechanically, that captures the feel I have for psionics. Psionics would be more controlled in that you cannot use up too much by accident, but it would not just be a clone of spells. It would be a simple fantasy of having basic powers that you can use freely at will, and strong powers that put strain on your mind, weakening other powers until you rest. This is easier to accept as the in world interpretation of psionics, and would be far easier to balance mechanically, because the only randomness would be in the effectiveness of certain powers, not in how much or little you get to use them.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Why does WotC keep giving UA sorcerers a domain spell list, only to never publish or keep it in follow up? Do they enjoy taunting us? "Yes, we know this is a thematic way to alleviate one of the biggest issues with sorcerer. No, we will never include this in any finished product."

    Would Aberrant Mind sorc still be OP if the free mage armor was removed from it? That seems like the least thematic thing it had.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by clash View Post
    I really like the soulknife as well, and personally I think people on this forum put way too much stock in magic weapons. They always seem to work under the assumptions that
    a) You'll get a magic weapon
    b) The magic weapon will be of a type that works for your build normally. Ie bow for an archer, polearm for a PM etc.
    c) You wont get other magic items that are more valuable or useful than a magic weapon
    That's a lot of assumptions to critique something on the basis of in my opinion.

    The soulknife gets a magic weapon as part of the subclass that he
    a) Can never lose or have confiscated temporarily
    b) Can't have the damage traced back to him
    c) deals on of the best damage types
    d) works for his build
    e) never requires attunement

    Who cares if it doesnt stack with other magic weapons
    I partially agree with you, but if you're going to completely lock it out of using other weapons (and it's not just magic weapons, it also locks the Rogue out of using poisons) then there needs to be some kind of improvement. A Battlemaster gets their SD at 3rd level, but there's two die size increases (as well as a pool increase) to keep that 3rd level ability scaling with the challenges the character faces. It wouldn't hurt anything to follow suit on the Mystic Soulknife and give it a way to gain +x bonuses or maybe even throw an extra d6 in there later on (and there's no good reason to make the bonus action a d4 that never improves, or make it lower than the main action to begin with).
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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    Perhaps interestingly, despite the fact that the comment to which you responded was one that said they agreed with my idea for a revision of this concept from the UA, I actually am not one that thinks the mechanic as presented is too complex. Maybe a bit complicated to explain, but once you get the idea, it is actually really simple. I think the better criticism would be that it is too random (especially with them putting in dice rolls in places that don't seem to need it), or that it doesn't do a good job of matching the wanted fantasy of psionics. In terms of simplicity though, I think it is pretty solid as is. Not the most simple thing, surely, but not particularly more complex than things like superiority dice, and way less complex than spellcasting.

    That being said, it is the other things I mentioned that I think are the bigger issue. The randomness and the fit of the mechanics to the fluff. Personally, I don't picture psionics as being so random. That being said, rigid, distinct powers, split over multiple tiers of power is what magic is in 5e. Psionics that is just magic, "but totally not because its psionics and uses points," gets zero interest from me. If psionics is to justify its existing as more than just another flavor of magic, it must have an important distinction from magic, both in terms of the lore and the mechanics. If that distinction is going to involve lesser control of your powers and thus an element of randomness in mechanics, that is fine. But that would probably not be my first choice for how to do it.

    What I like about the adjustments that I suggested was that, when done that way, it creates a distinct niche, both lore-wise and mechanically, that captures the feel I have for psionics. Psionics would be more controlled in that you cannot use up too much by accident, but it would not just be a clone of spells. It would be a simple fantasy of having basic powers that you can use freely at will, and strong powers that put strain on your mind, weakening other powers until you rest. This is easier to accept as the in world interpretation of psionics, and would be far easier to balance mechanically, because the only randomness would be in the effectiveness of certain powers, not in how much or little you get to use them.
    I haven't internalized your suggestions, so can't respond to them, but I overall agree with your discussion points on the strengths and issues of this dΨ mechanic. It does feel too random and uncontrolled for the fantasy of the psion.

    I think...and I could be wrong...they're trying to hark back to when psionics was something anybody COULD have, but it was rare and it was NOT controlled (in theory; in practice, it was just another resources and oft overpowered if you rolled well when randomly determining what you got). I think all of these are supposed to be "wild talents." If I look at it in that perspective, I'm more okay with the mechanic. But it won't do by itself for the fantasy of the powerful master of the mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by micahaphone View Post
    Why does WotC keep giving UA sorcerers a domain spell list, only to never publish or keep it in follow up? Do they enjoy taunting us? "Yes, we know this is a thematic way to alleviate one of the biggest issues with sorcerer. No, we will never include this in any finished product."

    Would Aberrant Mind sorc still be OP if the free mage armor was removed from it? That seems like the least thematic thing it had.
    Free mage armor is good, but hardly a deal-maker or deal-breaker with most discussions of power.

    I will say this about "domain spell lists" for sorcerers: I wouldn't expect them with any one officially-printed sorcerer subclass unless the subclass itself was really underwhelming to make up for it. I wouldn't want to see that latter, either.

    What I would hope for is some sort of "Players' Options" or similar book in concept, something like Xanathar's Guide, with more optional rules. In it, it will include potential power-creep suggestions, and amongst those will be lists of domain spells for sorcerer subclasses that have already been printed.

    After that, I would expect future subclasses to have, "If your DM is using ______ and its optional domain spells rules, here is a suggested list," included by default.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    I partially agree with you, but if you're going to completely lock it out of using other weapons (and it's not just magic weapons, it also locks the Rogue out of using poisons) then there needs to be some kind of improvement. A Battlemaster gets their SD at 3rd level, but there's two die size increases (as well as a pool increase) to keep that 3rd level ability scaling with the challenges the character faces. It wouldn't hurt anything to follow suit on the Mystic Soulknife and give it a way to gain +x bonuses or maybe even throw an extra d6 in there later on (and there's no good reason to make the bonus action a d4 that never improves, or make it lower than the main action to begin with).
    I completely agree on the d4. It seems like a completely unnecessary reduction. As for improvement both soul blades and rend mind offer forms of improvements to the soulknife, but I could see offering a way to improve the knives directly. Maybe just scale to a d8 or something like kensei's sharpen the blade but using psi die instead
    Last edited by clash; 2020-04-15 at 10:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    They added spells for the Ranger, I don't know why adding some would be an issue for the Sorcerer when it's known to be one of the main criticisms of the class.

    It doesn't need to be 10 spells like the Aberrant Mind got, 5 spells would already help a lot.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I haven't internalized your suggestions, so can't respond to them, but I overall agree with your discussion points on the strengths and issues of this dΨ mechanic. It does feel too random and uncontrolled for the fantasy of the psion.

    I think...and I could be wrong...they're trying to hark back to when psionics was something anybody COULD have, but it was rare and it was NOT controlled (in theory; in practice, it was just another resources and oft overpowered if you rolled well when randomly determining what you got). I think all of these are supposed to be "wild talents." If I look at it in that perspective, I'm more okay with the mechanic. But it won't do by itself for the fantasy of the powerful master of the mind.
    That makes sense. While again, it might not be my first choice for the fantasy of psionics, I think it is a perfectly acceptable one, and if implemented in a satisfactory way, would be just fine. In that sense, I think that this UA is a good start. I certainly don't think the mechanics are good enough yet, what with weird things tied to dice rolls that don't feel like they should be, and certain things that seem really freaking powerful given out nearly at will with the only check on them seeming to be the fact that it is not impossible to run out. But if this is the fantasy they choose to embrace, the core mechanics are a solid starting point, and I would not complain if it gets an official release (so long as it is balanced).

    Oh, and by the way, I love your use of dΨ. Perfect way to shorthand it.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Daphne View Post
    They added spells for the Ranger, I don't know why adding some would be an issue for the Sorcerer when it's known to be one of the main criticisms of the class.

    It doesn't need to be 10 spells like the Aberrant Mind got, 5 spells would already help a lot.
    I think they learned the wrong lesson when people got upset about the bonus spells for Ranger subclasses. That or because they're super resistant to fixing problems made earlier in the edition, they don't want people complaining when the refuse to give other Sorcerers bonus spells.

    Edit: what's the actual benefit to only getting half of subtle spell? I know if your roll well you actually get subtle spell+, but under the assumption that it's not super likely to happen, you're unlikely to use the ability except in situations where you have access to the components and can move freely anyway. Is the Psionic Soul supposed to be a Stealth class?
    Last edited by Luccan; 2020-04-15 at 10:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    I think mental exhaustion (as represented by the die) is a reasonable alternative to "perfect mind powers until I run out". Is it the same as 3.5 or a wizard? No. Does it make sense? Yes. Does it add some risk and excitement? Yes.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Overreaction, much?

    Mystic UA was around for years until now. It had its chance, but eventually was found unwanted by the majority (and these forums or its users do NOT represent the majority)
    There hasn’t been an option to submit feedback for years either. They haven’t even attempted a Psion class since. Really though, my comment was aimed at their hastiness to scrap things in general. I’m almost afraid to comment in feedback that an option is overpowered because they will either throw it out or publish a lackluster underpowered version. This is one of the few times they’ve revised something for play test material, but if people don’t like this iteration I wouldn’t be surprised if they just gave up.
    Last edited by Lockwolfe; 2020-04-15 at 10:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I will say this about "domain spell lists" for sorcerers: I wouldn't expect them with any one officially-printed sorcerer subclass unless the subclass itself was really underwhelming to make up for it. I wouldn't want to see that latter, either.

    What I would hope for is some sort of "Players' Options" or similar book in concept, something like Xanathar's Guide, with more optional rules. In it, it will include potential power-creep suggestions, and amongst those will be lists of domain spells for sorcerer subclasses that have already been printed.

    After that, I would expect future subclasses to have, "If your DM is using ______ and its optional domain spells rules, here is a suggested list," included by default.
    While adding a bunch of spells known a la the Aberrant Mind is definitely "power creep," you could at least arguably add a couple core spells known without breaking anything; divine soul does so, for example.

    Another non-power-creep option would be a full replacement of the core spell list for the subclass: maybe a psionic sorcerer gets access to Dissonant Whispers, the various tentacle spells, etc. but loses access to cone of cold, fireball, etc. It's not a system that would make sense for most subclasses, but if you're really trying to wedge a psion character into an existing class's chassis, it might be necessary in this case.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    I feel like for the feats, both having ki points and especially gith races (seeing as, yunno, the ability is called GITHZERAI / GITHYANKI PSIONICS) should also be included as possible prerequisites. Would finally find monks a reason to seriously consider githzerai. But ya those feats just scream monks and I wish they were more accessible to them, but 2 feats is a SUPER expensive cost on a monk... Even if they're both half feats...
    Last edited by Scarytincan; 2020-04-15 at 11:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I think they learned the wrong lesson when people got upset about the bonus spells for Ranger subclasses. That or because they're super resistant to fixing problems made earlier in the edition, they don't want people complaining when the refuse to give other Sorcerers bonus spells.
    The extra spells for the Ranger were in the playtest versions, and both Swarmkeeper and Fey Wanderer also have them. So WotC is either ignoring any criticism and bit the bullet, or the reception was not so bad.

    My main point is, maybe the problem is the amount of extra spells, and not their mere existence. They could try a Sorcerer subclass with just 1 more spell per spell level instead of 2 at least once to see the reception.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    That makes sense. While again, it might not be my first choice for the fantasy of psionics, I think it is a perfectly acceptable one, and if implemented in a satisfactory way, would be just fine. In that sense, I think that this UA is a good start. I certainly don't think the mechanics are good enough yet, what with weird things tied to dice rolls that don't feel like they should be, and certain things that seem really freaking powerful given out nearly at will with the only check on them seeming to be the fact that it is not impossible to run out. But if this is the fantasy they choose to embrace, the core mechanics are a solid starting point, and I would not complain if it gets an official release (so long as it is balanced).
    Yeah, while there's more to discuss in specifics, overall, I agree with you that this is a good first-pass, and that they could work from here to refinement rather than needing to try again with a whole new bathtub (let alone different bathwater).

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    Oh, and by the way, I love your use of dΨ. Perfect way to shorthand it.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I think they learned the wrong lesson when people got upset about the bonus spells for Ranger subclasses. That or because they're super resistant to fixing problems made earlier in the edition, they don't want people complaining when the refuse to give other Sorcerers bonus spells.
    Both of these seem likely. Like I said, how I'd hope to see it done is for there to be some book along similar lines to Xanathar's where more options are included, and they have the "optional rule" to buff all sorcerer subclasses with domain spells. Then they can release "optional domain spell lists" for any new ones that come out later with the subclass itself.

    The trick here is that they can't give it to new ones and not old ones, and they don't want to do a full reprint of the PHB to include new lists. Making it an "optional rule" that is highly likely to be used by everybody who cares about the issue solves the problem: they can put it in its own book, and they can then include it by default (with a small line about it being "an optional rule") with new ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    Edit: what's the actual benefit to only getting half of subtle spell? I know if your roll well you actually get subtle spell+, but under the assumption that it's not super likely to happen, you're unlikely to use the ability except in situations where you have access to the components and can move freely anyway. Is the Psionic Soul supposed to be a Stealth class?
    If you need subtle spell more than you need the effect to go off - say, you're trying to charm person a king in the middle of court - having it fail rather than become obvious is a good thing. Especially if it doesn't cost you the spell slot (I'm unclear on that).

    Also, for any that are Verbal-only, no Somatic or Material, you automatically get the benefit of Subtle!

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by ZRN View Post
    Also unrelated: the rogue and fighter subclasses look awesome and the feats do too; the only thing that makes me dislike them is the vagaries of the Psi Dice mechanic. As others in this thread have noted, it's super unlikely you'll lose your dice at higher levels, but before level 5 it's a 1 in 24 chance (not much less likely than rolling a natural 1). Maybe they could replace Psi Replenishment with something like, "You can meditate uninterrupted for 1 minute to restore your psi die to a d6." That way, a couple bad rolling streaks doesn't arbitrarily screw over your adventuring day at low levels. (No scaling for non-psi classes because yikes, those feats already scale enough. Maybe the psi classes could get improved replenishment that scales with your psi die?)
    Unlimited restorations would be too strong--it would basically be at-will Telekinesis for high-level Psi Knights, for example.

    But a once-per-day bonus action restoration is still good. You have a 1 in 24 chance to lose your first psi die at low levels after only two uses, but then you get another d6 as a bonus action, and that second d6 will usually last you about 15 rolls. You have only a 1 in 576 chance to lose all of your dice in only four high rolls (6,4,6,4), but on average you'll get about thirty dice even at level 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    The trick here is that they can't give it to new ones and not old ones, and they don't want to do a full reprint of the PHB to include new lists. Making it an "optional rule" that is highly likely to be used by everybody who cares about the issue solves the problem: they can put it in its own book, and they can then include it by default (with a small line about it being "an optional rule") with new ones.
    Counterpoint: scattering rules for a single class across multiple books might annoy readers. Moon Druids and summoners seem to trip over this problem a lot, judging by forum posts anyway about how annoyed certain DMs and players get when you don't have stats pre-written-out.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-04-15 at 11:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Regarding the die mechanic, I actually kinda like it, and I find it funny that people are complaining that it's so much extra bookkeeping, when a very simple way to handle that is just grab an extra set of dice, maybe a nice purple, and just set the one that it's currently at in front of you to use, and swap it when it changes.

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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    After some retrospection, what's really bothering me right now about the Wild Talent feat is how bland it is. It's just a bonus to your numbers. A strong bonus to your numbers, but still. There's nothing that makes it feel particularly psionic in nature.

    Aside from that, the more I think about it the less I like the Psionic Die. Literally every other class and ability lets the player decide when and how to use up their resources and when they want to conserve their energy. Yet the Psionic Die now makes those decisions for me, at least on anything connected to it. It's a kinda interesting way to simplify play, but it seems to me like it'll create strange situations during actual play ("Wait, why does my Sorcerer keep holding back the full extent of his powers? We are fighting our arch-nemesis who is about to ascend to godhood and who also killed his entire village!") and I'm not sure if simplified play is a goal that really overlaps with what many people want out of a psionic class in particular. It certainly doesn't for me.
    Last edited by Theoboldi; 2020-04-15 at 11:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Ua: Psionic options revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    I think mental exhaustion (as represented by the die) is a reasonable alternative to "perfect mind powers until I run out". Is it the same as 3.5 or a wizard? No. Does it make sense? Yes. Does it add some risk and excitement? Yes.
    That assessment is pretty relative. Does it make sense? That depends entirely on your view of what Psionics should be. Does it add excitement? In the sense of not knowing if your powers will get weaker throughout the day, yes. That's not the same thing as enjoyable for some people.
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