Why aren't any epic level good heroes helping OotS if the world may end?

[caltino]

One would think that if the entire world's fate is at hand, really high level people would come out of the woodwork and help crush Xykon and One eye. Apart from the "then it wouldn't be OotS adventure" is there a reason why they are not getting more help? Are they the only high level heroes- I'm pretty sure they are not. I get the need for secrecy, but when you are down to one gate and the bad guy is there before you, you should get more help than the couple of paladins and a mid level dwarf priest, right?

It's like a reverse "throw the ring in the lava" situation- where's the rivendell meeting putting together a super team?

[Jasdoif]

It's like a reverse "throw the ring in the lava" situation- where's the rivendell meeting putting together a super team?

That's the subject of 276, I believe.

[TooSoon]

One would think that if the entire world's fate is at hand, really high level people would come out of the woodwork and help crush Xykon and One eye. Apart from the "then it wouldn't be OotS adventure" is there a reason why they are not getting more help? Are they the only high level heroes- I'm pretty sure they are not. I get the need for secrecy, but when you are down to one gate and the bad guy is there before you, you should get more help than the couple of paladins and a mid level dwarf priest, right?

It's like a reverse "throw the ring in the lava" situation- where's the rivendell meeting putting together a super team?

It's a fair question. The instinctive reply is "well, this is a low levelled world"... and that's kind of true. On the other hand, it's also not. For instance, V's master would be, what, level 16+ at least to be an Archmage? Assumedly higher, since I doubt they get called Archmage for having 1 level in it. Similarly, there have been other Archmage's an wizards in the past (like Fyron) who are assumedly high enough level to help a lot. The elves have a country of their own too, which must have high level characters. Then consider the Familicide spell. Did you see how many Black Dragons were killed? The corollary of that is there should be similar numbers of good dragons who want to help save the planet (and even the evil ones don't want it to be destroyed). The Ancient Black Dragon was a 32-33 HD monster with at least level 17 Sorcerer abilities. It was more powerful than the entire Order is now. The good versions of such Dragons sure would come in handy right now. Even the Evil ones aren't likely to interfere to stop them, they don't want to be destroyed after all. There have also been a few other characters, some joking ones, some serious, who have appeared on panel and would probably be a big help. Ok, they don't all know about it, but many of them (such as V's master) could be easily informed, and by this point High Level Dragons watching over humanity should have enough clues something pretty serious is going on (and some of these people could be reached out to for help).

[Peelee]

One would think that if the entire world's fate is at hand, really high level people would come out of the woodwork and help crush Xykon and One eye. Apart from the "then it wouldn't be OotS adventure" is there a reason why they are not getting more help?

They did get help from epic level Good heroes. They were the ones who created the Gates in the first place.

There's probably not too many epic characters in the world - Haley didn't even know if any clerics were 17th level. And even then, how would they know about the problem?

[HorizonWalker]

There's also the fact that as characters grow higher in level, the likelihood of them going questing on other planes of existence goes up. By the time you hit Epic, you're probably off questing in The Nine Hells, throwing down with Archdevils, and the Outsiders aren't all intimately aware of what's happening on the Prime Material Plane.

Meaning, even if there are Epic heroes still around, they're probably busy with other things.

[Schroeswald]

It's a fair question. The instinctive reply is "well, this is a low levelled world"... and that's kind of true. On the other hand, it's also not.For instance, V's master would be, what, level 16+ at least to be an Archmage? Assumedly higher, since I doubt they get called Archmage for having 1 level in it. Similarly, there have been other Archmage's an wizards in the past (like Fyron) who are assumedly high enough level to help a lot.

Aarindius has never been said to be an Archmage, they're just a wizard as far as we know.

Also, more important, the rest of these high level characters don't know anything. They are fairly rare, Redcloak is probably one of the highest level clerics in the OOTS-verse, and most of the important clerics are trapped in the Godsmoot, so most of them either have never heard of this Zyklon fellow or are busy with their own world-ending/conquering threats.

[137beth]

Most likely because there aren't any epic level good heroes in the world.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's the subject of 276, I believe.

Or possibly, the aside in panel 9 of 652 and one of the arguments pointed out in 1028. To whit, that this is not the only world-threatening Evil plot that needs a party of level-appropriate adventurers. Worlds that run on narrativium are like that: the crisis creates the opportunity for the 5-man/6-person/7-primate/non-paladin, non-pirate personnel irrespective of final quantity team to exist, but there is never excess capacity to the plot.

Grey Wolf

[TooSoon]

Aarindius has never been said to be an Archmage, they're just a wizard as far as we know.

Also, more important, the rest of these high level characters don't know anything. They are fairly rare, Redcloak is probably one of the highest level clerics in the OOTS-verse, and most of the important clerics are trapped in the Godsmoot, so most of them either have never heard of this Zyklon fellow or are busy with their own world-ending/conquering threats.

My bad. That said he's apparently strong enough that V, an intelligent and informed Wizard, believes he can solo an ABD with level 17 Sorcerer abilities.

[druid91]

It's a fair question. The instinctive reply is "well, this is a low levelled world"... and that's kind of true. On the other hand, it's also not. For instance, V's master would be, what, level 16+ at least to be an Archmage? Assumedly higher, since I doubt they get called Archmage for having 1 level in it. Similarly, there have been other Archmage's an wizards in the past (like Fyron) who are assumedly high enough level to help a lot. The elves have a country of their own too, which must have high level characters. Then consider the Familicide spell. Did you see how many Black Dragons were killed? The corollary of that is there should be similar numbers of good dragons who want to help save the planet (and even the evil ones don't want it to be destroyed). The Ancient Black Dragon was a 32-33 HD monster with at least level 17 Sorcerer abilities. It was more powerful than the entire Order is now. The good versions of such Dragons sure would come in handy right now. Even the Evil ones aren't likely to interfere to stop them, they don't want to be destroyed after all. There have also been a few other characters, some joking ones, some serious, who have appeared on panel and would probably be a big help. Ok, they don't all know about it, but many of them (such as V's master) could be easily informed, and by this point High Level Dragons watching over humanity should have enough clues something pretty serious is going on (and some of these people could be reached out to for help).

I mean, there were also those two guys who habitually storm the gates of Hell that Durkon found that one time, who almost joined the Order, but Roy had already found the Order we know and love.

That being said The idea that there's OTHER world ending plots going on isn't a bad one.

[Peelee]

My bad. That said he's apparently strong enough that V, an intelligence and informed Wizard, believes he can solo an ABD with level 17 Sorcerer abilities.

Even the author doesn't know if Aarin could have. V might just be optimistic there. Or have rose-colored glasses.

Hyperbole on the part of the illustration; it's a callback joke to the panel in #630 where he kills Qarr without looking. The fiends never actually made any claims other than that he could "intercede."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My bad. That said he's apparently strong enough that V, an intelligence and informed Wizard, believes he can solo an ABD with level 17 Sorcerer abilities.

Said wizard also believed other obvious lies such that a demon would agree to obeying an order that'd kill him. V was in no state of mind to accurately gauge if their teacher was in any way capable of soloing the ABD, or indeed the veracity of any other claim by the IFCC.

Grey Wolf

[TooSoon]

Even the author doesn't know if Aarin could have. V might just be optimistic there. Or have rose-colored glasses.

Sure, V could just be optimistic here, but whether his master could beat the Dragon must be based on something. The guy studied under him for such a long time, he must know what sort of level he's at. V being trance deprived and desperate made him a bad judge of character, etc, but this is more a math equation. After getting curbstomped V isn't going to think his master can win unless he's notably higher level than he himself is. I'm not saying the guy is Epic or anything, but he's clearly high enough level that he'd be really useful to have along.

[Peelee]

Sure, V could just be optimistic here, but whether his master could beat the Dragon must be based on something. The guy studied under him for such a long time, he must know what sort of level he's at. V being trance deprived and desperate made him a bad judge of character, etc, but this is more a math equation. After getting curbstomped V isn't going to think his master can win unless he's notably higher level than he himself is. I'm not saying the guy is Epic or anything, but he's clearly high enough level that he'd be really useful to have along.

Wizards prepare their spells every day. Unless Aarin preps to be able to defeat powerful dragons on a daily basis while studying in their tower, V is definitely being optimistic. And that's ignoring that V was a young, fairly low-level wizard when they left and may not know A's true power or level.

[understatement]

Barely anyone knows about the Snarl threat since the Gods aren't allowed to even tell their clerics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sure, V could just be optimistic here, but whether his master could beat the Dragon must be based on something.

Sure, sleep depravation. And despair. And idolization of a former teacher that, at the time, was so much more powerful than V.

Grey Wolf

[TooSoon]

Wizards prepare their spells every day. Unless Aarin preps to be able to defeat powerful dragons on a daily basis while studying in their tower, V is definitely being optimistic. And that's ignoring that V was a young, fairly low-level wizard when they left and may not know A's true power or level.

He was his apprentice for 50 years. Sure, he wasn't high level when he left, but as the comic has shown you don't need to be high level to recognize or calculate high level. Most characters can do it, V included has shown as much, and he wasn't ejected as a child. He was an adult. I find it very unlikely V didn't have a good idea of what level his master was at.

[Grey Watcher]

"Only tha good die fer good, they say." So while epic villains like Xykon keep cheating death, their heroic counterparts end up staying dead after a certain point.

I mean, yeah, True Resurrection is a thing, but if the party Cleric was among the people who bought the farm....

[Peelee]

He was his apprentice for 50 years.

And he was in diapers for twenty. Timescales are different for elves.

Think about it this way - how long have you been at your job? And do you know exactly how much your boss gets paid? It's not a perfect analogy, but it's good enough.

[TooSoon]

And he was in diapers for twenty. Timescales are different for elves.

Think about it this way - how long have you been at your job? And do you know exactly how much your boss gets paid? It's not a perfect analogy, but it's good enough.

I've been at my job for 5 years, and I know exactly how much my boss and every executive is paid. This is open source material, characters know "well, if such and such casts a 9th level spell, they need to be at least level 17 as a Wizard, etc". It seems totally implausible to me that V has been studying with his master for 50 years and has no idea of his level from observing his spell casting. Yes, Elves age differently, but V wasn't in diapers as an apprentice, he left as an adult, so again I just think people are searching too hard for doubt when there isn't really much to be found. It's not like I'm saying his master is Epic or something, but clearly he's high enough level that having him along would be useful. Also even if somehow V was wrong, V doesn't think he's wrong, which again begs the question of why they aren't recruiting people like this to help.

NB; to clarify, V was 43 when he became an apprentice and 93 when he left. Even by Elf years he was no child. V's own adopted children are in their 20's.

[Peelee]

I've been at my job for 5 years, and I know exactly how much my boss and every executive is paid.

Like I said, its not a perfect analogy. A large amount of people would not share your answer. I suspect an overwhelming majority.

Also, how much high-level spellcasting do you think happens in an academic tower?

[TooSoon]

Like I said, its not a perfect analogy. A large amount of people would not share your answer. I suspect an overwhelming majority.

Also, how much high-level spellcasting do you think happens in an academic tower?

Quite a lot; spells to ward yourself and your tower each day, buffs, etc. Divinations. Spells you want to use to enchant objects/potions to sell. Plus just run of the mill spells you've seen cast for whatever reason. Plus it's surely something that comes up in your training, and you'd ask about anyway. Just to cast grasping hand to evict him from the tower would require level 13, which alone is a very useful person to have. V seems to think he's much more useful than that, and yet isn't asking him to come with.

[Peelee]

Quite a lot; spells to ward yourself and your tower each day, buffs, etc. Divinations. Spells you want to use to enchant objects/potions to sell. Plus just run of the mill spells you've seen cast for whatever reason. Plus it's surely something that comes up in your training, and you'd ask about anyway.

Citations needed.

[TooSoon]

Citations needed.

Citations for what? You asked a speculative question and I gave a speculative answer. We are told his tower is warded though.

[Peelee]

Citations for what? You asked a speculative question and I gave a speculative answer. We are told his tower is warded though.

We're not told its on a daily basis, or that it's temporary, or done by him, or....

V probably has an idea about A's level. Maybe a range. Maybe even the exact level with all spells written in A's book.

V still didn't question that Qarr would take on a suicidal mission, or spot any other flaws in the plan. V's entire demeanor, including how they looked, was indicative of a declining mental state. So no, I do not think that V thought, "ah, Master A is X level with Y spells prepared today and could fend off the dragon by taking Z tactics." I think that V simply thought something more along the lines of, "Master A more powerful, boom dragon gone yay."

[TooSoon]

We're not told its on a daily basis, or that it's temporary, or done by him, or....

V probably has an idea about A's level. Maybe a range. Maybe even the exact level with all spells written in A's book.

V still didn't question that Qarr would take on a suicidal mission, or spot any other flaws in the plan. V's entire demeanor, including how they looked, was indicative of a declining mental state. So no, I do not think that V thought, "ah, Master A is X level with Y spells prepared today and could fend off the dragon by taking Z tactics." I think that V simply thought something more along the lines of, "Master A more powerful, boom dragon gone yay."

You're refuting points I've never made. I don't care if his master could actually defeat the ABD, I merely observe V thinks it is plausible he could; which tells us a lot about his capabilities, for the reasons given. Even if we disregarded all this, and assumed V was somehow mistaken, V doesn't think he is; so should be trying to get his help. We've also seen the dude cast a 7th level spell (many years ago). Clearly a useful guy to have along.

[Peelee]

You're refuting points I've never made.

You previously called it a math question that being trance deprived and desparate had no effect on the calculation of. So no, I would say I am refuting the exact points you made. A bit wordier than Grey Wolf's more elegant posts, but nonetheless.

I don't care if his master could actually defeat the ABD, I merely observe V thinks it is plausible he could; which tells us a lot about his capabilities, for the reasons given.

It does not, due to the aforementioned trance deprivation and desperation.

Even if we disregarded all this, and assumed V was somehow mistaken, V doesn't think he is;

We have yet to see V reassess A after clearing their head, resting, and growing through profound personal growth especially relating as to what constitutes power, so I would question the present tense you used there.

so should be trying to get his help.

And once the comic ends without addressing that, I'll be right on board that train with you. Until then, though, it can well be resolved in the comic, and I'm not about to question why things are or aren't being done when those things have yet to be resolved.

[Draconi Redfir]

all the other high-level heroes are busy saving the world in their own campaigns.


what, you didn't think Xykon was the only world-destroying evil around did you? Heck the whole high-priest-of-hel thing would have been some other group's campaign if it hadn't happened to Durkon first.

[Ionathus]

Citations needed.

So the hill you want to die on in this debate is "V would be unable to accurately gauge Aarin's power level, because wizards wouldn't cast the highest-level spells they know at some point in 50 years"?

Yes, him soloing the ABD was hyperbolic, but I don't think dismissing Aarindarius entirely out of hand is viable. At the very least, he'd be more (strategically) helpful than Minrah.

Whether he'd want to come with, or whether that would make narrative sense, is another matter -- but it also isn't the point you were debating.

[TooSoon]

So the hill you want to die on in this debate is "V would be unable to accurately gauge Aarin's power level, because wizards wouldn't cast the highest-level spells they know at some point in 50 years"?

Yes, him soloing the ABD was hyperbolic, but I don't think dismissing Aarindarius entirely out of hand is viable. At the very least, he'd be more (strategically) helpful than Minrah.

Whether he'd want to come with, or whether that would make narrative sense, is another matter -- but it also isn't the point you were debating.

This guy gets it. Even if we assumed his master hadn't powered up at all in however many decades, he's still a level 13 Wizard at the very, very least. Realistically he's almost certainly higher, probably quite a bit higher. Or V thinks so, and s/he would probably know. It's almost inconceivable that V's master didn't at some point in 50 years cast their higher/highest level spells, or discuss the matter with V. Once he does that, working out his level is indeed a math equation.