Why aren't any epic level good heroes helping OotS if the world may end?

[Peelee]

So the hill you want to die on in this debate is "V would be unable to accurately gauge Aarin's power level, because wizards wouldn't cast the highest-level spells they know at some point in 50 years"?

Yes, him soloing the ABD was hyperbolic, but I don't think dismissing Aarindarius entirely out of hand is viable. At the very least, he'd be more (strategically) helpful than Minrah.

Whether he'd want to come with, or whether that would make narrative sense, is another matter -- but it also isn't the point you were debating.

Neither is that the comparable helpfulness of Aarin vs Minrah, and yet.

I'm not dismissing Aarin out of hand. Im saying that V's assessment that Aarin could solo the dragon (one-shot ting was the hyperbole, not the soloing) is not reliable given V's extremely compromised state at the time.

And no, I don't think that a cloistered wizard teaching another would feel the need to break out a 9th level spell just for funsies in the time it takes their student's children to go from toddler to kindergartener. Well, maybe old V would in that scenario, but I have no reason to think that A is as power-crazed and show-boaty as old V was.

[Ionathus]

Im saying that V's assessment that Aarin could solo the dragon (one-shot ting was the hyperbole, not the soloing) is not reliable given V's extremely compromised state at the time.

Nobody is arguing that V's assessment was reliable. TooSoon is not arguing that.

What IS being argued, and what I think is valid, is that Aarin is a demonstratably competent wizard, and that V would remember what spells he's cast and be able to extrapolate his level.

And no, I don't think that a cloistered wizard teaching another would feel the need to break out a 9th level spell just for funsies in the time it takes their student's children to go from toddler to kindergartener. Well, maybe old V would in that scenario, but I have no reason to think that A is as power-crazed and show-boaty as old V was.

Let's pick 7th-level spells, because we saw Aarin use one with Bugsby's Hand in the prequel book.

Here's my curated list from the SRD:

Spoiler: Long spell list

Show

Instant Summons M: Prepared object appears in your hand.
Mage’s Magnificent Mansion F: Door leads to extradimensional mansion.
Phase Door: Creates an invisible passage through wood or stone.
Plane Shift F: As many as eight subjects travel to another plane.
Teleport, Greater: As teleport, but no range limit and no off-target arrival.
Teleport Object: As teleport, but affects a touched object.

Arcane Sight, Greater: As arcane sight, but also reveals magic effects on creatures and objects.
Scrying, Greater: As scrying, but faster and longer.
Vision M X: As legend lore, but quicker and strenuous.

Forcecage M: Cube or cage of force imprisons all inside.

Project Image: Illusory double can talk and cast spells.
Shadow Conjuration, Greater: As shadow conjuration, but up to 6th level and 60% real.
Simulacrum M X: Creates partially real double of a creature.

Control Weather: Changes weather in local area.
Ethereal Jaunt: You become ethereal for 1 round/level.
Reverse Gravity: Objects and creatures fall upward.
Statue: Subject can become a statue at will.

Limited Wish X: Alters reality—within spell limits.

Because you mentioned 9th-level spells, here are also some 9th-level spells Aarin might have if he was high enough level:

Etherealness
Shapechange
Astral Projection
Refuge
Teleportation Circle

Is your argument that, if Aarin had the ability to cast any of these spells, that he would never find a use for any one of them in the day-to-day activities of his magical tower, where he studies magical things, working alongside his magical student? Seems like some of them would be pretty useful.

It doesn't have to be a pride thing. Magic has practical uses outside of combat.

[TooSoon]

Yeh, I don't agree Peelee. To start with, it kind of is about Minrah, because if it makes sense to bring along low level people like this because "we can use all the help we can get", doesn't it make even more sense to see if you can get high lever Elf Wizards on board too? That's the question this thread is asking; why aren't more high level people helping out? It's a reasonable question to ask. V's master is one of the better examples of someone who is both high level and readily contactable, and yet they seemingly haven't asked for his help.

Most wizards who have 8th level spells use buffs like Mind Blank every day, so that is an example of the sort of spell that, if his master had, you'd have expected him to see at some point in 50 years living with him. Obviously I'm not saying A has Mind Blank necessarily, it's an example, which you asked for when you said "what sort of situations would require him to use high level spells while sitting in his tower teaching V?" It doesn't requite citations, just common sense. The objectively reasonable thing to think is that V would have some idea of A's strength after 50 years of living with him, and since he was at least level 13 decades ago it's indisputable he brings more to the table than a random Dwarf like Minrah does. There may be very good reasons why A isn't able to come, we may even hear what they are, but it is a very reasonable question to ask just what the deal is here.

Lastly, this is a somewhat separate issue, but as concerns V's state of mind. Ok, the guy wasn't showing great judgment in some ways, but he also showed a lot of highly analytical thinking during that period too. It seems like V was being unwise, rather than delusional, and if he thinks a level 13 Wizard is going to have any hope of beating an Ancient Black Dragon with 17+ levels in Sorcerer he's not just "not thinking clearly", he's had a psychotic break. As Rash as V was being, it's still not plausible he thought his master had a chance without something solid to base it on, the guy is busy calculating levels and spells left and right during that period, he can do the elementary "does my master have a chance to win" calculation; and a mere 13 level Wizard does not have a chance to win. V should know, because he was a level 13 Wizard then and he had no chance to win. Actually I believe he was 14th level when he fought the ABD (NB; the link in the stat geekery page should be to issue 626 not 627, when it says he can cast 4 level 6 spells in one day).

[Peelee]

Nobody is arguing that V's assessment was reliable. TooSoon is not arguing that.

This entire excerpt is TooSoon arguing that V's assessment was reliable.

Sure, V could just be optimistic here, but whether his master could beat the Dragon must be based on something. The guy studied under him for such a long time, he must know what sort of level he's at. V being trance deprived and desperate made him a bad judge of character, etc, but this is more a math equation. After getting curbstomped V isn't going to think his master can win unless he's notably higher level than he himself is. I'm not saying the guy is Epic or anything, but he's clearly high enough level that he'd be really useful to have along.

[TooSoon]

I would summarise it like this.

V knows A is an approximately [level XYZ] wizard.

V may not be correct in his belief an approximately [level XYZ] wizard can defeat the ABD, but his state of mind isn't so bad he has forgotten his master is approximately [XYZ level].

That is the issue here, that and the fact [XYZ level] wizard is obviously more useful to have along than randoms like Minrah.

[factotum]

That is the issue here, that and the fact [XYZ level] wizard is obviously more useful to have along than randoms like Minrah.

And V knows that--yet Aarindarius hasn't joined them yet. There are several possible reasons for that I can think of:

- He can't contact him. This seems unlikely in the extreme given Sending is a well-known spell we've seen used multiple times, but Aarindarius might be as paranoid as Dorukan and has wards in place that prevent scrying and sending from working.
- He doesn't believe Aarindarius would help, even if asked, or else he *has* asked and Aarindarius refused, perhaps because he's dealing with his own potentially world-ending problem independently of the main plot.
- Having had time to recover from his forced trance deprivation and given time to think, he doesn't think Aarindarius is powerful enough to make the time and effort required to get him to join up worth it.
- He has contacted him, and Aarindarius is keen to help, but his old master picked the same banned schools as V did and therefore has no means to reach the party in time to help.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons that could be thought of, but those are the ones I immediately thought of. Unless it's actually addressed in the comic, we're not likely to find out.

[TooSoon]

And V knows that--yet Aarindarius hasn't joined them yet. There are several possible reasons for that I can think of:

- He can't contact him. This seems unlikely in the extreme given Sending is a well-known spell we've seen used multiple times, but Aarindarius might be as paranoid as Dorukan and has wards in place that prevent scrying and sending from working.
- He doesn't believe Aarindarius would help, even if asked, or else he *has* asked and Aarindarius refused, perhaps because he's dealing with his own potentially world-ending problem independently of the main plot.
- Having had time to recover from his forced trance deprivation and given time to think, he doesn't think Aarindarius is powerful enough to make the time and effort required to get him to join up worth it.
- He has contacted him, and Aarindarius is keen to help, but his old master picked the same banned schools as V did and therefore has no means to reach the party in time to help.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons that could be thought of, but those are the ones I immediately thought of. Unless it's actually addressed in the comic, we're not likely to find out.

Oh sure, like I said there may be great reasons we'll hear about (or won't hear about) for why he isn't helping. I'm merely saying that the OP asking "hey, why aren't guys like this dude helping?" is pretty reasonable. I mean the fate of the planet, and possibly all of existence, is on the line here.

[Kantaki]

or else he *has* asked and Aarindarius refused, perhaps because he's dealing with his own potentially world-ending problem independently of the main plot.

Not "world-ending" exactly, but their project to colour fireballs bright pink and make them smell like roses is in a critical phase right now.

[Kurald Galain]

- He has contacted him, and Aarindarius is keen to help, but his old master picked the same banned schools as V did and therefore has no means to reach the party in time to help.

Even if Aarindarius has access to conjuration magic, the Teleport spell likely has insufficient range to reach V. The spell Greater Teleport has no range limit, but still requires a "reliable description" of the place you're headed for. I don't believe this is feasible to do, with Sending spells, from a moving airship.

[TooSoon]

Even if Aarindarius has access to conjuration magic, the Teleport spell likely has insufficient range to reach V. The spell Greater Teleport has no range limit, but still requires a "reliable description" of the place you're headed for. I don't believe this is feasible to do, with Sending spells, from a moving airship.

They've stopped off at quite a few well known, mapped destinations since they first found out this was a world threatening danger. It shouldn't be too hard for A to either teleport there, or to teleport nearby; assuming, you know, he has Greater Teleport.

[Liquor Box]

I agree with TooSoon that V thinking his master might be able to beat the dragon suggests the master is very powerful (even if V's assessment wasn't completely accurate).

What about Julio Scoundrel? Isn't implied to be at least higher level than Elan.

[hroþila]

I think Julio would only help if the finale involves all the friends and allies the Order made along the way showing up for the last battle. Which is entirely possible, as it would be highly conventional, but we already saw that at the end of UD.

[KorvinStarmast]

One would think that if the entire world's fate is at hand, really high level people would come out of the woodwork and help crush Xykon and One eye. Apart from the "then it wouldn't be OotS adventure" is there a reason why they are not getting more help? Are they the only high level heroes- I'm pretty sure they are not. I get the need for secrecy, but when you are down to one gate and the bad guy is there before you, you should get more help than the couple of paladins and a mid level dwarf priest, right?

I have a two part answers that fit the OoTS world and the D&D that inspired it.
I. Other PCs/adventurers don't know and don't care ...
Ignorance is Bliss. Most people don't know.
They don't care. The mid-to-high levels adventurers are, in the main, similar to Belkar-Munchkin-Parody characters, in that all they care about is more XP and more loot. (The scenes in OoTPCs where Roy is hiring supports this, as does (slightly) Belkar's use of a tavern full of adventureres to foil an assassin in Cliffport).

II.
Roy Greenhilt Cares.

What makes Roy different is that He Cares

After the group formed, stormed, normed and performed, he gave them a shot at breaking up after they were done with the first quest, the bandits, the dragon, and saving the fire at the Inn - they had made and lost a fortune together but then became aware of the Big Picture. (Azure city strip where he tears up the contracts) They still stuck with him - they now cared (with a possible exception of Belkar, who at that point seemed to still be in it for the Lulz). That factor - Roy Cares and he's a good leader - is the significant difference between the Order and all other potential PCs in OoTS world.

The story about The Order of the Stick. They are imperfect, but they are unique in caring enough about their world to want to try to save it. (Ya think Rich might have a slight meta message going on here? Maybe).

[Ionathus]

That factor - Roy Cares and he's a good leader - is the significant difference between the Order and all other potential PCs in OoTS world.

The story about The Order of the Stick. They are imperfect, but they are unique in caring enough about their world to want to try to save it. (Ya think Rich might have a slight meta message going on here? Maybe).

I never even considered this angle, and I love it.

You're right: most high-level NPCs we've seen have been mostly self-absorbed or focused on their own goals.

Also, I haven't seen Belkar's comment in the pyramid listed here so I think it's worth mentioning in this discussion:

I mean, that bell got rung when a billion hobgoblins stomped up and down on Hinjo's face. I don't hear the cavalry yet.

[The Pilgrim]

Other heroes:
1) Don't know
2) Won't believe (#998 panel 6)
3) Are too busy stoping other world-threatening evil plots
4) Are sensitive enough to avoid upstaging our heroes in their own show (Julio Scoundrel)

[Ionathus]

V should know, because he was a level 13 Wizard then and he had no chance to win. Actually I believe he was 14th level when he fought the ABD

This is pedantic, but actually V didn't have "no chance" at level 13, because the ABD tells Vaarsuvius:

"I did not want to take risks. I only had one chance at surprise...I only needed to wait until something caused you to expend all of your high-level spells. Something like your spat with the imp."

ABD intentionally waited until V used all of their prepared Disintegrate spells, just to be on the safe side, so that shows us V at least had a mathematical chance of beating the ABD. Disintegrate is powerful, yo.

I think this is just further proof that any mid-to-high-level help they could get would be worth it. I understand the reasons why it's just the Order doing this, but it's fun to speculate about what others are busy with.

[JustIgnoreMe]

All the epic level heroes are currently still trying to destroy a mystical vase.

[TooSoon]

This is pedantic, but actually V didn't have "no chance" at level 13, because the ABD tells Vaarsuvius:



ABD intentionally waited until V used all of their prepared Disintegrate spells, just to be on the safe side, so that shows us V at least had a mathematical chance of beating the ABD. Disintegrate is powerful, yo.

I think this is just further proof that any mid-to-high-level help they could get would be worth it. I understand the reasons why it's just the Order doing this, but it's fun to speculate about what others are busy with.

The ABD was being super cautious so as to not leave anything to chance. But realistically the greater danger the ABD was probably worried about was V escaping the dragon's clutches. With an Anti-Magic field in play V had no trump cards that would result in an actual victory. V's master would need to be notably higher level than V to have a remotely plausible chance. The sequence also suggests A can Greater Teleport (perhaps not to the island, but certainly to V's family's home in the Elven lands, with which A is likely familiar).

[Peelee]

The ABD was being super cautious so as to not leave anything to chance. But realistically the greater danger the ABD was probably worried about was V escaping the dragon's clutches. With an Anti-Magic field in play V had no trump cards that would result in an actual victory. V's master would need to be notably higher level than V to have a remotely plausible chance. The sequence also suggests A can Greater Teleport (perhaps not to the island, but certainly to V's family's home in the Elven lands, with which A is likely familiar).

How could V have escaped, even with all they spells?

Also, why would A need Greater Teleport and not simply Teleport?

[factotum]

Also, why would A need Greater Teleport and not simply Teleport?

In strip #629 the ABD actually says "Greater Teleport" when teleporting to V's house, so seems pretty clear that's the spell she used. You'll have to ask her why she used it rather than simple Teleport--maybe that couple of percent chance of arriving off target was too much for her to risk?

[Peelee]

In strip #629 the ABD actually says "Greater Teleport" when teleporting to V's house, so seems pretty clear that's the spell she used. You'll have to ask her why she used it rather than simple Teleport--maybe that couple of percent chance of arriving off target was too much for her to risk?

ABD may also have been more than 1700 miles away. But I was asking about A(arindarius) not the ABD. Aarin is presumably in the elven lands already; at least, there's no reason to think they're not.

[TooSoon]

How could V have escaped, even with all they spells?

Also, why would A need Greater Teleport and not simply Teleport?

Well, Etheral Jaunt is a 7th level spell. Maybe the Dragon was worried that despite her research V had this spell and could escape into the ground, then underwater or to the skies in the confusion. Limited Wish might have helped too. I don't know what was in ABD's mind, merely that they told us on panel that they were being extra cautious to get their revenge done right. Initially the ABD didn't even seem to want to use the AMF, so maybe it really wanted to rub it in V's face how much more powerful she was. It's not really important.

[Peelee]

Well, Etheral Jaunt is a 7th level spell. Maybe the Dragon was worried that despite her research V had this spell and could escape into the ground, then underwater or to the skies in the confusion. Limited Wish might have helped too. I don't know what was in ABD's mind, merely that they told us on panel that they were being extra cautious to get their revenge done right. It's not really important.

I can agree with all that. But I still see no reason to think that Aarin has Greater Teleport.

[Tass]

"Maybe... we should retreat. Try to get the word out about what's going on and let someone more qualified handle it."

"So you're gonna ***** out now and "sound the alarm"? Sure, whatever. I mean, that bell got rung when a billion hobgoblins stomped up an down on Hinjo's face. I don't hear the cavalry yet."

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html

Edit: Wow a word printed in the comic can't be quoted on the forum? I'll never understand this fear of certain words.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Edit: Wow a word printed in the comic can't be quoted on the forum? I'll never understand this fear of certain words.

The comic is not the forums.

It is also not "fear", it is the reality that just because Rich knows how to toe the line of PG-13, that doesn't mean all 130000 forum account holders know how to as well. For one thing, the chances of Roy responding badly to Belkar's words and escalating into a profanity-laced flame war are non-existing, because they are both characters, but the same is not the case in the forums.

Grey Wolf

[CriticalFailure]

So much for "The Owl and the *****-cat"

[Peelee]

So much for "The Owl and the *****-cat"

I've never heard of "the owl and the pussy cat," but the link GW threw up tells you that's its, under curtain circumstances, OK to say that and how.

Though I should note that it is not advisable to use workarounds like that to quote the comic there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

under curtain circumstances

That's a typo that just... works. It suggests that the circumstances are best to be the kind that one'd prefer to happen behind curtains. I should start using it.

Grey Wolf

[CriticalFailure]

I've never heard of "the owl and the pussy cat," but the link GW threw up tells you that's its, under curtain circumstances, OK to say that and how.

Though I should note that it is not advisable to use workarounds like that to quote the comic there.

It's a very innocuous children's poem that only sounds inappropriate if you censor it. Thanks for the heads up on valid and allowed reasons to avoid the filter.

[Peelee]

It's a very innocuous children's poem that only sounds inappropriate if you censor it.

Ah, like those "unnecessary censorship" videos, like with the count from sesame street!