Why aren't any epic level good heroes helping OotS if the world may end?

[CriticalFailure]

Ah, like those "unnecessary censorship" videos, like with the count from sesame street!

That's exactly what I thought of when I imagined copying the entire poem into here.

[dancrilis]

One of the (presumedly) highest level characters around with significant resources offered to assist them in their quest by way of additional adventurers and the offer was refused.

Effectively the Order of the Stick are not looking for the most optimal method of finishing their quest - they are looking for a way to complete their quest in a manner consistent with a DnD party of adventurers, that does not seem to include forming an army of equal level characters to assist them.

Frankly I am still dubious about what Roy's plan is here, he seemed pretty sure at the last gate that they were doomed if Xykon showed up - I am not sure what has changed his outlook.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Frankly I am still dubious about what Roy's plan is here, he seemed pretty sure at the last gate that they were doomed if Xykon showed up - I am not sure what has changed his outlook.

He now is back to having a CODzilla in the team. Who also happens to be his best friend, and heart of the team.

Grey Wolf

[factotum]

One of the (presumedly) highest level characters around with significant resources offered to assist them in their quest by way of additional adventurers and the offer was refused.

Um, you're not seriously saying that the Order should have taken that offer at face value? From the person who, not long previously, killed Elan's twin brother (his own son, I'll remind you), and had only been stopped from destroying the Order by the skin of their teeth? I mean, if you think Tarquin actually meant any of that stuff he said when he was in a position of weakness, I have a bridge you might be interested in purchasing...

[Schroeswald]

He now is back to having a CODzilla in the team. Who also happens to be his best friend, and heart of the team.

Grey Wolf

He also has V back, at that point he only had four party members, one of whom was a hit away from death and the only caster was Elan.

[Kantaki]

One of the (presumedly) highest level characters around with significant resources offered to assist them in their quest by way of additional adventurers and the offer was refused.

Right. Because letting Tarquin get involved is such a great plan.
And even if it was, that whole scene was about T deperately trying to stay relevant as the villain and Elan denying him, by not playing along with his father's play.

Funding that army of heroes was never about sending them all to save the world, it was about making Elan the main character with Roy as a support role and Tarquin as the final boss.
Just another attempt by T to be important, memorable.
Elan rejecting him, saying "No dad, you aren't important" and literally dropping him from the story is basically the greatest victory he could have inflicted on the guy. Giving a bunch of NPCs the key to beating Tarquin the Empire of Blood's nameless general is just icing on the cake.

Even ignoring that, even if Elan would've accepted none of those guys would've been strong enough to really matter.
Can't have them taking the lime-light from the actual hero and his struggle against his villainous father.

[JustIgnoreMe]

I've never heard of "the owl and the pussy cat,"

It’s one of the greatest poems of all time. It’s really famous in the UK.

[factotum]

It’s one of the greatest poems of all time. It’s really famous in the UK.

"The owl and the pussy-cat went to sea,
In a beautiful pea-green boat,
They took some honey, and plenty of money,
Wrapped up in a five-pound note."

Edward Lear, guy was a genius.

[Oddstar]

First, I'd like to give my proverbial two cents on whether V's master would have had much of a chance against the dragon. V seemed to think so, but remember, V by that point had not seen Aarindarius for a long time, and V had gained a lot of experience by then and was, thus, much more powerful than when V had left Aarindarius. Remember,

Spoiler: spoilers for OtOoPCs here

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V left to become an adventurer because Haley told V that V could become much more powerful much more quickly as an adventurer than as a student.

Aarindarius was much more powerful than V was when they last saw each other, so V would remember Aarindarius as an incredibly powerful wizard who could seemingly do anything, but by that time, V might have become as or even more powerful without necessarily realizing it. And if you would say that V would have seen the most powerful spell that Aarindarius could cast and therefore would have known precisely what level Aarindarius was, that is not necessarily true. V would have seen the spells that Aarindarius was teaching V, which would have been Aarindarius' lower-level spells, but would not necessarily have seen his most powerful ones. Also, remember that when one wizard sees another wizard cast a spell, he has to make a spellcraft check to identify it, which scales with the level of the spell. When V was lower level, V would have had a commensurately lower spellcraft rating, meaning that V would not necessarily have been able to identify all of Aarindarius' spells that V did see cast. But in any case, even if Aarindarius was still more powerful than V at the time of the incident with the dragon, Aarindarius would not necessarily be more powerful than V now, so there is that. Also, remember that even before V joined the Order, V

Spoiler: more spoilers for OtOoPCs here

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competed on Iron Mage, the Iron Mages being among the most powerful wizards in the world, suggesting that V was close to being as powerful as some of the most powerful wizards in the world even then (Aarindarius was an honorary Iron Mage),

further suggesting that the most powerful wizards in the world are not that powerful; to put it another way, V might now be the most powerful wizard in the world.

But even if you assume that Aarindarius is powerful enough, there is another reason why Aarindarius might not help. V, remember, worships the Elven god of secrets. The Western pantheon, of which the Elven gods are a part, also voted to destroy the world, as did the Northern god of secrets. This is just speculation, but it is possible, perhaps even probable, that A) Aarindarius also worships the Elven god of secrets, B) the Elven god of secrets also voted to destroy the world, and C) that Aarindarius, like many of the clerics of the gods who voted to destroy the world, does not think it right to oppose the end of the world. That's just speculation, obviously, but it is possible that Aarindarius is not helping because Aarindarius is not willing to help.

Sorry, that ended up being longer than I planned. As for the more general question of why aren't any epic-level good heroes helping the Order, I think it is for the reason that Belkar implied. Namely, it is for the same reason that no epic-level good heroes showed up to help the resistance throw the hobgoblins out of Azure City, and for the same reason that no epic-level good heroes have shown up to expose Tarquin's scheme and liberate the Western continent. And that reason is very simple: there aren't any. The Order of the Scribble, i.e., Soon Kim's party, were probably the most powerful good adventuring party of their day. Dorukan was probably the most powerful good wizard in the world until quite recently. We know that Miko Miyazaki was the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard, seemingly one of the most powerful paladin orders in the world (we've barely seen any references to any paladins other than the Sapphire Guard), and she was definitely not epic level. The Order of the Stick might well be the most powerful good adventuring party in the world today. If so, the Order of the Stick are the ones doing this because, fundamentally, there is no one else who can.

[TooSoon]

First, I'd like to give my proverbial two cents on whether V's master would have had much of a chance against the dragon. V seemed to think so, but remember, V by that point had not seen Aarindarius for a long time, and V had gained a lot of experience by then and was, thus, much more powerful than when V had left Aarindarius. Remember,

Spoiler: spoilers for OtOoPCs here

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V left to become an adventurer because Haley told V that V could become much more powerful much more quickly as an adventurer than as a student.

Aarindarius was much more powerful than V was when they last saw each other, so V would remember Aarindarius as an incredibly powerful wizard who could seemingly do anything, but by that time, V might have become as or even more powerful without necessarily realizing it. And if you would say that V would have seen the most powerful spell that Aarindarius could cast and therefore would have known precisely what level Aarindarius was, that is not necessarily true. V would have seen the spells that Aarindarius was teaching V, which would have been Aarindarius' lower-level spells, but would not necessarily have seen his most powerful ones. Also, remember that when one wizard sees another wizard cast a spell, he has to make a spellcraft check to identify it, which scales with the level of the spell. When V was lower level, V would have had a commensurately lower spellcraft rating, meaning that V would not necessarily have been able to identify all of Aarindarius' spells that V did see cast. But in any case, even if Aarindarius was still more powerful than V at the time of the incident with the dragon, Aarindarius would not necessarily be more powerful than V now, so there is that. Also, remember that even before V joined the Order, V

Spoiler: more spoilers for OtOoPCs here

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competed on Iron Mage, the Iron Mages being among the most powerful wizards in the world, suggesting that V was close to being as powerful as some of the most powerful wizards in the world even then (Aarindarius was an honorary Iron Mage),

further suggesting that the most powerful wizards in the world are not that powerful; to put it another way, V might now be the most powerful wizard in the world.

But even if you assume that Aarindarius is powerful enough, there is another reason why Aarindarius might not help. V, remember, worships the Elven god of secrets. The Western pantheon, of which the Elven gods are a part, also voted to destroy the world, as did the Northern god of secrets. This is just speculation, but it is possible, perhaps even probable, that A) Aarindarius also worships the Elven god of secrets, B) the Elven god of secrets also voted to destroy the world, and C) that Aarindarius, like many of the clerics of the gods who voted to destroy the world, does not think it right to oppose the end of the world. That's just speculation, obviously, but it is possible that Aarindarius is not helping because Aarindarius is not willing to help.

Sorry, that ended up being longer than I planned. As for the more general question of why aren't any epic-level good heroes helping the Order, I think it is for the reason that Belkar implied. Namely, it is for the same reason that no epic-level good heroes showed up to help the resistance throw the hobgoblins out of Azure City, and for the same reason that no epic-level good heroes have shown up to expose Tarquin's scheme and liberate the Western continent. And that reason is very simple: there aren't any. The Order of the Scribble, i.e., Soon Kim's party, were probably the most powerful good adventuring party of their day. Dorukan was probably the most powerful good wizard in the world until quite recently. We know that Miko Miyazaki was the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard, seemingly one of the most powerful paladin orders in the world (we've barely seen any references to any paladins other than the Sapphire Guard), and she was definitely not epic level. The Order of the Stick might well be the most powerful good adventuring party in the world today. If so, the Order of the Stick are the ones doing this because, fundamentally, there is no one else who can.

A may not be Epic, and he may not be have been able to beat the ABD, but the issues here are:
1) V thinks he could have beaten the ABD, so even if he's wrong he must have something solid to base that on, and at the very least have enough to think A has a chance. Anyone who has a chance against an Ancient Black Dragon who is also a level 17+ sorcerer is clearly someone very useful
2) V was the live in apprentice for A for 50 years. It's not plausible that he didn't have a good idea about his level. It's possible, in the same way it is possible something other than rain caused everything outside to be wet, but it's a remote possibility. Even if V didn't know the Spellcraft for Greater Teleport/whatever spell back then, he'd know it now, and now is when he thinks A is good enough to plausibly prevail over an ABD
3) Even if we disregarded the above 2 points, we know A is at the absolute bare minimum 13+ Wizard, even if he didn't gain a single level over decades and decades since. A level 13+ Wizard is much, much more useful than freaking Minrah.

Maybe there are good reasons that we will or won't hear for why A isn't being called in; however it is very reasonable for readers to speculate about it, and ask "why aren't they getting guys like this into play?"

[factotum]

Maybe there are good reasons that we will or won't hear for why A isn't being called in; however it is very reasonable for readers to speculate about it, and ask "why aren't they getting guys like this into play?"

And we've already come up with good reasons why A might not be able to help, e.g. he banned the same schools as V did and thus can't teleport to their location. I also believe the Giant once said--instead of making assumptions that don't fit with the story and then complain that the story is wrong, why not make assumptions that *do* fit?

[TooSoon]

And we've already come up with good reasons why A might not be able to help, e.g. he banned the same schools as V did and thus can't teleport to their location. I also believe the Giant once said--instead of making assumptions that don't fit with the story and then complain that the story is wrong, why not make assumptions that *do* fit?

Nobody is complaining about the story here. They're speculating about unknown elements of it. That is part of what these forums are for.

There are many reasons why A might choose not to get involved, but they have not been revealed at all, and "he can't teleport" is definitely not one of them. Even if it were true, it's no reason not to contact him about it and see if he can find a way for someone to teleport/transport him there. This is a world where teleport scrolls exist, where the oots bought a teleport orb, and where there is a literal school of magic that the protagonists sisters goes to. Meanwhile A lives in the Elven lands, where assumedly someone can teleport (like for instance the Elven resistance who came from the Elven lands). At this stage a long time has passed since they understood the stakes they were playing for, A could very well have made it to them by now (or tried to). O'Chul travelled from the outskirts of the Elven lands to the Tomb on the back of a shark. Pretty sure A could have just flown there by now, probably much faster in fact.

Again, there may be great reasons A is not getting involved; eg neutrality, disinterest, a random oath he made, etc. I don't think "well, he can't teleport" is one of them. I find it an especially bad reason for you to advance right after you were arguing "well, V doesn't know what spells A has and doesn't have". Your argument is apparently V knows him so well, he knows he can't teleport/fly there, can't obtain another means to teleport/fly there, and has never learned any of this in the decades since he left his tower... but simultaneously V is so clueless as to A's spells that he has not even a vague notion of A's level. The two ideas are pretty contradictory.

[factotum]

I find it an especially bad reason for you to advance right after you were arguing "well, V doesn't know what spells A has and doesn't have".

You'll have to remind me where I argued that, particularly "right after" anything, considering my previous post in this thread was 12 days ago and I've never made that argument?

[JonahFalcon]

Most likely because there aren't any epic level good heroes in the world.

Are you saying there are no evil characters who think being wiped from existence is a bad idea?

Kingpin: There is no profit to be made in the destruction of the planet. It is very bad for business.

[factotum]

Are you saying there are no evil characters who think being wiped from existence is a bad idea?

Kingpin: There is no profit to be made in the destruction of the planet. It is very bad for business.

Sufficiently high-level Evil characters could probably go and live on the Astral Plane or something and just wait for the next world to be created...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I will say, I have always felt that it goes to far to take "Vaarsuvius was not thinking clearly at the time and missed several other flaws in the demons' plan" and get "so Aarindarius is nowhere near as high level as Vaarsuvius thinks". It's certainly a possibility that they were thinking way too highly of their former master, so I would not be surprised if a potential in-comic addressing/Word of Giant goes, "Oh, yeah, the plan was totally wrong about that too". But, I don't think it's any more likely than that Vaarsuvius does have an accurate idea of how powerful Aardinarius is and there's another reason they have not asked him for help.

[Oddstar]

A may not be Epic, and he may not be have been able to beat the ABD, but the issues here are:
1) V thinks he could have beaten the ABD, so even if he's wrong he must have something solid to base that on, and at the very least have enough to think A has a chance. Anyone who has a chance against an Ancient Black Dragon who is also a level 17+ sorcerer is clearly someone very useful
2) V was the live in apprentice for A for 50 years. It's not plausible that he didn't have a good idea about his level. It's possible, in the same way it is possible something other than rain caused everything outside to be wet, but it's a remote possibility. Even if V didn't know the Spellcraft for Greater Teleport/whatever spell back then, he'd know it now, and now is when he thinks A is good enough to plausibly prevail over an ABD
3) Even if we disregarded the above 2 points, we know A is at the absolute bare minimum 13+ Wizard, even if he didn't gain a single level over decades and decades since. A level 13+ Wizard is much, much more useful than freaking Minrah.

Maybe there are good reasons that we will or won't hear for why A isn't being called in; however it is very reasonable for readers to speculate about it, and ask "why aren't they getting guys like this into play?"

Minrah volunteered to help, and insisted on coming when Roy tried to turn her down. Aarindarius has not volunteered to help. As I said, he may not want to.

[Aedilred]

Normally, when someone asks a question like this and someone replies "because that's what the story requires," I drive them from the room by banging pots and issue a curse on their name, yea, even unto the tenth generation.

But when it comes to stories like this, where there is an element of parody, comedy rules all, and there are characters who very successfully make a living from manipulating the rules of narrative, I think it is really the only answer you need.

Normally, it's a Doylian answer to a Watsonian question, but in the case of OotS it's a Watsonian answer too.

In this world, every group of heroes with an interest in adventuring is tied up doing their own level-appropriate adventure against a villain who they consider to be the most important thing going on right now. Even if they heard about Xykon and his plan and considered they were in a position to help, they probably won't, because there are already some other dudes dealing with that. And we don't need Rich to tell us that in order to know it. Nor do the characters.

OotS isn't a real D&D campaign but it still runs on D&D rules: not just the nuts and bolts of damage calculation and spell levels, but the distinction between PCs and NPCs, main plots and sidequests, and the general principles that not only does just one adventuring party deal with the same plot at the same time (unless the other party is a rival antagonistic NPC party) but, if a friendly NPC joins the party for any length of time, they're always lower-level so they don't steal the spotlight. And if you ask Elan, or Tarquin, or probably Haley or even V on a good day, they would acknowledge this too.

And sure, Rich can throw out references and cutaways and jokes about what some of these other adventuring parties are doing, but that's not an explanation and that explanation isn't required: it's merely an illustration of what the characters take for granted.

[TooSoon]

You'll have to remind me where I argued that, particularly "right after" anything, considering my previous post in this thread was 12 days ago and I've never made that argument?

Sorry, I assumed when you said we'd "already given good reasons" to explain it you were endorsing the post above. If you weren't, my bad.

As to the broader issue; I've noted before that while V was showing bad judgment before and during the splice, his cognitive faculties seemed to be fully intact. He might make a rash decision, but he did not forget basic math; indeed, we see him making various complex calculations accurately during this period. I'd describe it as a more of a wisdom penalty, his intelligence and memories are working fine, and those were telling him A was a plausible foe for an Ancient Black Dragon with 17+ sorcerer levels. That speaks volumes. V might be wrong in thinking A will win (though he doesn't think he is, so he has every reason to contact him now), but A has to be at least a decent amount higher level than V at the time (which was level 14) or else he's not a plausible threat to someone V is helpless against. I also reject the idea that the fiends are so dumb as to pitch a plan that couldn't at least prima facie work. A few tiny details might unravel on closer inspection, but coming to a potentially existence altering sales pitch with something they know to be utterly implausible is dumb. It has to be at least plausible A could win on the face of it.

[Emanick]

Sorry, I assumed when you said we'd "already given good reasons" to explain it you were endorsing the post above. If you weren't, my bad.

As to the broader issue; I've noted before that while V was showing bad judgment before and during the splice, his cognitive faculties seemed to be fully intact. He might make a rash decision, but he did not forget basic math; indeed, we see him making various complex calculations accurately during this period. I'd describe it as a more of a wisdom penalty, his intelligence and memories are working fine, and those were telling him A was a plausible foe for an Ancient Black Dragon with 17+ sorcerer levels. That speaks volumes. V might be wrong in thinking A will win (though he doesn't think he is, so he has every reason to contact him now), but A has to be at least a decent amount higher level than V at the time (which was level 14) or else he's not a plausible threat to someone V is helpless against. I also reject the idea that the fiends are so dumb as to pitch a plan that couldn't at least prima facie work. A few tiny details might unravel on closer inspection, but coming to a potentially existence altering sales pitch with something they know to be utterly implausible is dumb. It has to be at least plausible A could win on the face of it.

I agree with this, and with Jaxzan Proditor. It's never seemed plausible to me that V, who is obsessed with power, would never have learned roughly how powerful hir mentor is, and that's not something you forget.

That said, where did we get the estimate that the ABD was a level 17+ sorcerer? If I recall correctly, a level 14 sorcerer would have been able to do everything she did.

[Peelee]

I agree with this, and with Jaxzan Proditor. It's never seemed plausible to me that V, who is obsessed with power, would never have learned roughly how powerful hir mentor is, and that's not something you forget.

That said, where did we get the estimate that the ABD was a level 17+ sorcerer? If I recall correctly, a level 14 sorcerer would have been able to do everything she did.

V was obsessed with V's power. V would care that their master was much more powerful than they were, but not ne rssarily the exact level.

Also, the dragon claimed she was. Ish.

[hamishspence]

She says she has a "passion for arcane studies" greater than that of other dragons:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

but it's not quantified.


She's able to cast 7th level spells - a regular Ancient Black Dragon can only cast 6th level ones. However, because sorcerer levels stack with dragon casting, it only takes 3 levels of Sorcerer to enable her to have the casting ability of a 14th level Sorcerer.

It's also possible that she's actually older than Ancient - she looks the same size as Xykon's Ancient Silver - and Ancient Silvers are Gargantuan. Black dragons need to be Wyrm age, to be Gargantuan.

If a Wyrm, she'd only need 1 Sorcerer level to be able to cast as a 14th level sorcerer.

[TooSoon]

She says she has a "passion for arcane studies" greater than that of other dragons:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

but it's not quantified.


She's able to cast 7th level spells - a regular Ancient Black Dragon can only cast 6th level ones. However, because sorcerer levels stack with dragon casting, it only takes 3 levels of Sorcerer to enable her to have the casting ability of a 14th level Sorcerer.

It's also possible that she's actually older than Ancient - she looks the same size as Xykon's Ancient Silver - and Ancient Silvers are Gargantuan. Black dragons need to be Wyrm age, to be Gargantuan.

If a Wyrm, she'd only need 1 Sorcerer level to be able to cast as a 14th level sorcerer.

The Ancient Black Dragon cast two 7th level spells, and had a 3rd (plane shift) which the story basically requires us to assume she has (or her whole scheme fails). That requires the casting ability of a 17th level Sorcerer.

NB- before anyone says "she could have a scroll of plane shift"; 1) she explicitly mentioned the scroll of soul bind, so I don't know why she'd be mentioning that was a scroll and not the plane shift, and 2) it'd be insanely dumb to plane shift yourself to another plane with a scroll and no way to escape that plane under your own power. I think we have to assume she has it, as she claims, which is 17+. V would certainly have to assume it too. Even leaving that to one side, with an AMF functioning in that way the ABD is basically the equivalent of an Epic monster. A needs to be a correspondingly high level to plausibly have a chance. To put this further in perspective, based on the spells we know Xykon actually has, Xykon would lose to the Dragon too in a straight up fight.

[Emanick]

The Ancient Black Dragon cast two 7th level spells, and had a 3rd (plane shift) which the story basically requires us to assume she has (or her whole scheme fails). That requires the casting ability of a 17th level Sorcerer.

NB- before anyone says "she could have a scroll of plane shift"; 1) she explicitly mentioned the scroll of soul bind, so I don't know why she'd be mentioning that was a scroll and not the plane shift, and 2) it'd be insanely dumb to plane shift yourself to another plane with a scroll and no way to escape that plane under your own power. I think we have to assume she has it, as she claims, which is 17+. V would certainly have to assume it too. Even leaving that to one side, with an AMF functioning in that way the ABD is basically the equivalent of an Epic monster. A needs to be a correspondingly high level to plausibly have a chance. To put this further in perspective, based on the spells we know Xykon actually has, Xykon would lose to the Dragon too in a straight up fight.

Which 7th level spell did she cast besides Greater Teleport? Antimagic Field is a 6th level spell.

It is entirely possible that she knew how to cast Plane Shift, too, and wasn't using an item to do so (although I'm less convinced than you that failing to explicitly mention a scroll means she was casting it under her own power - "I will leave this plane of existence" is pretty vague). Even if she did, though, by my calculations that only makes her 15th level, the minimum required to know two 7th level sorcerer spells.

Either way, I agree with what I think is your main point - that V must have known Aarindarius's rough level of power, and that Aarindarius must thus have been pretty high level in order to, at minimum, fend off the ABD for long enough for V's family to escape. It's just not that convincing that you could study under a wizard for decades and not know what he was capable of.

[TooSoon]

Which 7th level spell did she cast besides Greater Teleport? Antimagic Field is a 6th level spell.

It is entirely possible that she knew how to cast Plane Shift, too, and wasn't using an item to do so (although I'm less convinced than you that failing to explicitly mention a scroll means she was casting it under her own power - "I will leave this plane of existence" is pretty vague). Even if she did, though, by my calculations that only makes her 15th level, the minimum required to know two 7th level sorcerer spells.

Either way, I agree with what I think is your main point - that V must have known Aarindarius's rough level of power, and that Aarindarius must thus have been pretty high level in order to, at minimum, fend off the ABD for long enough for V's family to escape. It's just not that convincing that you could study under a wizard for decades and not know what he was capable of.

Finger of Death.

[Peelee]

Either way, I agree with what I think is your main point - that V must have known Aarindarius's rough level of power, and that Aarindarius must thus have been pretty high level in order to, at minimum, fend off the ABD for long enough for V's family to escape. It's just not that convincing that you could study under a wizard for decades and not know what he was capable of.

Unless V is being delusional here, which is certainly in the realm of possibility, especially given the context and recent history. Further, let's look a little more:

It's also possible that she's actually older than Ancient - she looks the same size as Xykon's Ancient Silver - and Ancient Silvers are Gargantuan. Black dragons need to be Wyrm age, to be Gargantuan.

In fact, if we compare Xykon's height to the Silver Dragon's shin/forearm height in NCftPB bonus strips, we can see they are roughly equal. If we compare V's height to the Black Dragon's shin/forearm height in panel 7, it's roughly equal (Xykon is actually slightly taller than the shin/forearm, but Xykon is also slightly taller than V, so that works out pretty perfectly). From this, we can conclude that the Black Dragon is indeed very likely to be a Wyrm.

Spoiler: No Cure for the Paladin Blues bonus strips

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The Ancient Silver Dragon in Xykon's tower was so powerful that Redcloak and Xykon agree to turn tail and run, but were overpowered before they could. If not for Shelby the Dragonslayer, it would have destroyed them. That was one dragon vs. two spellcasters, one of which was epic level, so we have a relative power differential for comparison.

An Ancient Silver Dragon has DR 20/magic, Spell Resistance of 29, 39 AC, 459 average HP, +42 to attack, and casts as a 15th level Sorcerer. Comparatively, a Wyrm Black Dragon has DR 20/magic, Spell Resistance of 26, 39 AC, 459 average HP, +42 to attack, and casts as a 13th level Sorcerer. The rest of the stats are more of the same either dead-on same or very close, with the Black Dragon trailing slightly behind when different. So let's call it slightly weaker.

And we're supposed to expect that V is dead-on correct that a single caster is capable of taking on this creature single-handedly? Ignoring the one-shotting, just simply going toe to toe against the dragon by themself, Aarindarius is supposed to come out on top? They'd have to be massively epic level, far higher than Xykon, to pull that off. High level characters are rare enough in this world, Haley wasn't even sure a 17th level cleric existed. Epic level characters are going to be exceedingly more scarce. And Aarindarius would to be in the upper echelon of even those ranks, according to V's supposed belief.

I find it far easier to believe that V was looking through rose-colored glasses and simply considering the power differential between V and A when V last left, and probably not considering that the gap was closed, or close to it, by this point. And that I could believe at the best of times. At this specific time, when V is clearly mentally and morally compromised, it is even more plausible. Even moreso when the fiends themselves, who had clearly been studying Vaarsuvius enough to even know about Aarindarius, refused to claim that A would be able to defeat the dragon, only making the claim that A could intercede.

[TooSoon]

Unless V is being delusional here, which is certainly in the realm of possibility, especially given the context and recent history. Further, let's look a little more:


In fact, if we compare Xykon's height to the Silver Dragon's shin/forearm height in NCftPB bonus strips, we can see they are roughly equal. If we compare V's height to the Black Dragon's shin/forearm height in panel 7, it's roughly equal (Xykon is actually slightly taller than the shin/forearm, but Xykon is also slightly taller than V, so that works out pretty perfectly). From this, we can conclude that the Black Dragon is indeed very likely to be a Wyrm.

Spoiler: No Cure for the Paladin Blues bonus strips

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The Ancient Silver Dragon in Xykon's tower was so powerful that Redcloak and Xykon agree to turn tail and run, but were overpowered before they could. If not for Shelby the Dragonslayer, it would have destroyed them. That was one dragon vs. two spellcasters, one of which was epic level, so we have a relative power differential for comparison.

An Ancient Silver Dragon has DR 20/magic, Spell Resistance of 29, 39 AC, 459 average HP, +42 to attack, and casts as a 15th level Sorcerer. Comparatively, a Wyrm Black Dragon has DR 20/magic, Spell Resistance of 26, 39 AC, 459 average HP, +42 to attack, and casts as a 13th level Sorcerer. The rest of the stats are more of the same either dead-on same or very close, with the Black Dragon trailing slightly behind when different. So let's call it slightly weaker.

And we're supposed to expect that V is dead-on correct that a single caster is capable of taking on this creature single-handedly? Ignoring the one-shotting, just simply going toe to toe against the dragon by themself, Aarindarius is supposed to come out on top? They'd have to be massively epic level, far higher than Xykon, to pull that off. High level characters are rare enough in this world, Haley wasn't even sure a 17th level cleric existed. Epic level characters are going to be exceedingly more scarce. And Aarindarius would to be in the upper echelon of even those ranks, according to V's supposed belief.

I find it far easier to believe that V was looking through rose-colored glasses and simply considering the power differential between V and A when V last left, and probably not considering that the gap was closed, or close to it, by this point. And that I could believe at the best of times. At this specific time, when V is clearly mentally and morally compromised, it is even more plausible. Even moreso when the fiends themselves, who had clearly been studying Vaarsuvius enough to even know about Aarindarius, refused to claim that A would be able to defeat the dragon, only making the claim that A could intercede.

Ok, as I've explained before, this is not just about how strong A is, its also about how strong V believes A to be. If V thinks A is that strong, even if V is wrong, they should still want to try and bring them over to help given the stakes. But there's also reason to believe V is right, which has been outlined extensively in this thread. I am not even suggesting that A would win against the Dragon, certainly not that A would one shot it, but it is reasonable for us to assume V has something solid to base that on, which in turn can give us a rough idea of the strength A had. At the very least A would need to be a decent amount stronger than V at that point in time, for V to plausibly believe A could do what V had no chance of doing, and V was level 14 at this point. V's judgment doesn't have to be perfect, but the idea he'd suddenly forget the broad range of his/her master's power is not supported by V's decision making. Rash? Yes. Unable to add basic numbers? No. The fiends wouldn't be counting on V being that dumb either; rash, yes, out of his mind no. That would be bad planning on their part, for a deal the whole of existence may hinge on. How about just suggest getting Belkar to defeat the Dragon if any old suggestion will work? Again, I agree V may be wrong, if only because the ABD is so strong I'm not sure Xykon could even take it with what we've seen on panel from him, but we can still infer a decent amount from V's belief that A could potentially prevail against it.

[Peelee]

we can still infer a decent amount from V's belief that A could potentially prevail against it.

I've cut all but the last part, because that's the relevant bit. I completely agree with you that we can infer a decent amount from V's belief. I just differ on what we can infer, because it is very reasonable to infer that V is being delusional. It's even thematically appropriate - V is being offered a choice between asking other for help or insisting that magic is the ultimate tool that can solve all problems. And if magic is the ultimate tool that can solve all problems, then of course A must be able to defeat the dragon, because A possesses magic greater than V's. How much greater is irrelevant, because V is not thinking this through logically, they are thinking this through emotionally. If only V had more magic, V could defeat the dragon. If only V had more magic, V could bring back Roy. If only V had more magic, V could defeat Xykon. It's about the power of magic just as much as it is about V's ego and insistence that they be the one who solves the problem. And to acknowledge that one who does posses greater magic than they do, regardless of how much or little more, would not be able to solve the problem would be to acknowledge that magic is not the ultimate key that fits all locks and opens all doors, which is the exact issue that V must come to terms with. V's belief in A's power is emblematic in V's belief of the inherent superiority of arcane magic, and not indicative of any actual level.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I find it far easier to believe that V was looking through rose-colored glasses and simply considering the power differential between V and A when V last left, and probably not considering that the gap was closed, or close to it, by this point. And that I could believe at the best of times. At this specific time, when V is clearly mentally and morally compromised, it is even more plausible. Even moreso when the fiends themselves, who had clearly been studying Vaarsuvius enough to even know about Aarindarius, refused to claim that A would be able to defeat the dragon, only making the claim that A could intercede.

I could get behind the idea that Vaarsuvius (mistakenly or not) was thinking of Aarindarius as having leveled with them continuously and that threw them off when hearing the fiends’ plan. Or that Vaarsuvius was underestimating the power of the ABD (after all, its not always easy to judge the details pinpointing the age of the dragon, especially under the circumstances). It’s more suggestions along the lines of “Vaarsuvius has no idea how powerful Aarindarius is” that I tend to not be as big a fan of.

I started writing this before I saw your most recent post, but I think that Vaarsuvius overestimates how much an arcane magic wielder can do is also perfectly reasonable, but much like how they overestimated their own power, they still had an understanding of the facts of their abilities, just perhaps not the wisdom to use it.

I see it as analogous to doing research under a professor, and then moving on and become one yourself. Even though you might have an overinflated opinion of your former mentor, you probably still have a good idea of what they know and are good at.

All of this to say, I think I mostly agree with you that Vaarsuvius’ belief in Aarindarius doesn’t tell us much about how powerful they are, and I know this is largely splitting hairs, since that’s where this argument started. I just think Vaarsuvius probably still has a reasonably good idea of Aarindarius’ power level.

[TooSoon]

I could get behind the idea that Vaarsuvius (mistakenly or not) was thinking of Aarindarius as having leveled with them continuously and that threw them off when hearing the fiends’ plan. Or that Vaarsuvius was underestimating the power of the ABD (after all, its not always easy to judge the details pinpointing the age of the dragon, especially under the circumstances). It’s more suggestions along the lines of “Vaarsuvius has no idea how powerful Aarindarius is” that I tend to not be as big a fan of.

I started writing this before I saw your most recent post, but I think that Vaarsuvius overestimates how much an arcane magic wielder can do is also perfectly reasonable, but much like how they overestimated their own power, they still had an understanding of the facts of their abilities, just perhaps not the wisdom to use it.

I see it as analogous to doing research under a professor, and then moving on and become one yourself. Even though you might have an overinflated opinion of your former mentor, you probably still have a good idea of what they know and are good at.

All of this to say, I think I mostly agree with you that Vaarsuvius’ belief in Aarindarius doesn’t tell us much about how powerful they are, and I know this is largely splitting hairs, since that’s where this argument started. I just think Vaarsuvius probably still has a reasonably good idea of Aarindarius’ power level.

Certainly useful enough that he'd be very useful on this quest. Much more useful than Minrah. Or at least that V believes as much (and to some extent is probably right). Even if he's the bare minimum amount stronger than V at that point, he'd be level 15. A level 15 Wizard would be super useful. In all likelihood they'd be stronger than most of the party in practical terms. Even a level 13 Wizard would be super handy, and we know A was a level 13 wizard at a bare minimum decades and decades ago. So while there are lots of reasons A may not be getting involved, and V may be overrating A, I'd say we know enough to reasonably ask "shouldn't the Order try and get people like this, who are obviously super useful, involved?" Personally I'm assuming A is at least several levels above V to be a plausible threat to the ABD, and that's at least a level 16-17 Wizard. I don't buy at all that V, at the time a level 14 Wizard, could have plausibly thought a Wizard below that range could have a prayer against an Ancient Black Dragon with level 17 Magic (including an AMF). That wouldn't just be rash, it would be utterly implausible.