Why aren't any epic level good heroes helping OotS if the world may end?

[Peelee]

Certainly useful enough that he'd be very useful on this quest. Much more useful than Minrah. Or at least that V believes as much (and to some extent is probably right). Even if he's the bare minimum amount stronger than V at that point, he'd be level 15. A level 15 Wizard would be super useful. In all likelihood they'd be stronger than most of the party in practical terms. Even a level 13 Wizard would be super handy, and we know A was a level 13 wizard at a bare minimum decades and decades ago. So while there are lots of reasons A may not be getting involved, and V may be overrating A, I'd say we know enough to reasonably ask "shouldn't the Order try and get people like this, who are obviously super useful, involved?" Personally I'm assuming A is at least several levels above V to be a plausible threat to the ABD, and that's at least a level 16-17 Wizard. I don't buy at all that V, at the time a level 14 Wizard, could have plausibly thought a Wizard below that range could have a prayer against an Ancient Black Dragon with level 17 Magic (including an AMF). That wouldn't just be rash, it would be utterly implausible.

It's utterly implausible for A to be anything short of mid-twenties or higher to have a prayer against the ABD in a one-on-one duel. Unless you wish to contend that A Is the most powerful wizard in the world.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Certainly useful enough that he'd be very useful on this quest. Much more useful than Minrah. Or at least that V believes as much (and to some extent is probably right). Even if he's the bare minimum amount stronger than V at that point, he'd be level 15. A level 15 Wizard would be super useful. In all likelihood they'd be stronger than most of the party in practical terms. Even a level 13 Wizard would be super handy, and we know A was a level 13 wizard at a bare minimum decades and decades ago. So while there are lots of reasons A may not be getting involved, and V may be overrating A, I'd say we know enough to reasonably ask "shouldn't the Order try and get people like this, who are obviously super useful, involved?" Personally I'm assuming A is at least several levels above V to be a plausible threat to the ABD, and that's at least a level 16-17 Wizard. I don't buy at all that V, at the time a level 14 Wizard, could have plausibly thought a Wizard below that range could have a prayer against an Ancient Black Dragon with level 17 Magic (including an AMF). That wouldn't just be rash, it would be utterly implausible.

Well, there are certainly plenty of reasons they might not want to get involved. I don’t know if I necessarily agree with exactly how high you’ve pegged their level, but regardless the point that they’d want to bring everyone in is a valid one. However, I think that the Order generally isn’t really calling in people who aren’t explicitly asking to join. Take the Mechane, for instance. If the Order was asking anyone to join, I’m sure Roy could have given the choice to the crew, but he doesn’t even want to present them with the option, in the interest of keeping everyone safe. Similarily with the dwarves, who surely aren’t all needed to keep the vampires at bay. I’m guessing that Roy would rather go in with a small team than call in everyone and risk their lives.

As for Aarindarius specifically, maybe we will see the reasoning, if there is any, for why they’re a no show (I could see it potentially being a part of a comic focusing on Vaarsuvius, maybe for a smidgen of character development). Or perhaps they will show up! That could be exciting. But if they’re never addressed again at all, I wouldn’t be surprised. In general, the comic does leave some things for the reader to fill in, and I’m fine with that.

[hamishspence]

Regarding Plane Shift - if she knows the location of a notable portal to a different plane, she can Greater Teleport to that location, and walk or fly through.

So, we cannot say for certain that it's on her list of Spells Known.

[TooSoon]

It's utterly implausible for A to be anything short of mid-twenties or higher to have a prayer against the ABD in a one-on-one duel. Unless you wish to contend that A Is the most powerful wizard in the world.

This is not necessarily so. A could have some really good conjuration spells, a particularly broken school of 3.5 magic, that would enable him to stand a chance without being so high level. The random goblin critical hit killing the Silver Dragon is a good example, albeit an unrealistic one. The reason Xykon, based on demonstrated abilities, would lose is because he doesn't seem to have access to the right spells to beat the ABD, however a lower levelled wizard could. A wizard who isn't substantially stronger than V is boned though, I agree there.

[Emanick]

This is not necessarily so. A could have some really good conjuration spells, a particularly broken school of 3.5 magic, that would enable him to stand a chance without being so high level. The random goblin critical hit killing the Silver Dragon is a good example, albeit an unrealistic one. The reason Xykon, based on demonstrated abilities, would lose is because he doesn't seem to have access to the right spells to beat the ABD, however a lower levelled wizard could. A wizard who isn't substantially stronger than V is boned though, I agree there.

I'm losing interest in the "did V know the ABD's level" discussion because, as usual, it's not really going anywhere, but it does seem worth pointing out that Xykon probably could have beaten the Ancient Silver Dragon (which is substantially more powerful than an Ancient Black Dragon) handily, despite his poor spell selection. He panicked and decided to retreat when he realized that the dragon was capable of resisting his spells, but if we assume that the rules were being followed strictly, even a level 21 Xykon would only have a 35% chance of failing to overcome the dragon's SR with any given spell. If you take a more realistic estimate - say, level 24 - you're looking at his spells having a 20% failure rate. That's annoying, but by no means crippling, especially when you consider that Xykon could just drift into Ghostform and heal up if he got into trouble, and that he's immune to the dragon's breath weapon. Meanwhile, silver dragons are extra-vulnerable to fire, which Xykon has in spades. It's possible that the dragon has a way to protect against that, but, well, Xykon also has Superb Dispelling.

I think a level 17 wizard would probably have a decent shot against the ABD, assuming s/he properly prepared or had a reasonably appropriate spell selection for the day - there are enough high-level disabling spells that you really only need to get lucky once or twice. Even a lower-level wizard could probably have interceded meaningfully, as the goal was really only to keep V's family safe. Fending off the dragon long enough to teleport away with V's family would have been something even a lower-leveled wizard than V may have been able to pull off, given the right spell selection, and a 15th level wizard with the maze spell prepared would be nearly guaranteed to be able to buy enough time to evacuate V's family. My best guess is that Aarindarius is level 15-16 - high enough that he's undoubtedly one of the most powerful elven wizards out there, but low enough that he isn't really on the same level as Team Evil, the Scribblers, or (perhaps) even Tarquin's team, whom I've always pegged as level 18-20 or so.

[TooSoon]

I'm losing interest in the "did V know the ABD's level" discussion because, as usual, it's not really going anywhere, but it does seem worth pointing out that Xykon probably could have beaten the Ancient Silver Dragon (which is substantially more powerful than an Ancient Black Dragon) handily, despite his poor spell selection. He panicked and decided to retreat when he realized that the dragon was capable of resisting his spells, but if we assume that the rules were being followed strictly, even a level 21 Xykon would only have a 35% chance of failing to overcome the dragon's SR with any given spell. If you take a more realistic estimate - say, level 24 - you're looking at his spells having a 20% failure rate. That's annoying, but by no means crippling, especially when you consider that Xykon could just drift into Ghostform and heal up if he got into trouble, and that he's immune to the dragon's breath weapon. Meanwhile, silver dragons are extra-vulnerable to fire, which Xykon has in spades. It's possible that the dragon has a way to protect against that, but, well, Xykon also has Superb Dispelling.

If the Silver Dragon had an Anti-magic Field then Xykon would have been unlikely to win, the same reason his current spell selection is largely useless against the Ancient Black Dragon. Superb Dispelling can't dispel an AMF, and he has no useful Epic spells we know of that would matter in such a fight. It's not just that the ABD is a high end foe in the first place, it's that it has an ability that makes it particularly tough for magic casters in particular to beat. It's why A must be pretty strong for V to believe he has any chance at all.

NB- I could see A being level 16-17 or so, and V just being overconfident in his abilities, in which case V is probably stronger than him now (or close to it). I don't think he could be lower than 16-17, because then it becomes too implausible for V to believe he could have any chance at all against the dragon, even in terms of stalling it. I too think the answer would probably lie in conjuration spells, although Maze can be plane shifted out of, a spell the dragon apparently has.

[hamishspence]

Superb Dispelling can't dispel an AMF

The Dispel epic seed specifically states it can defeat all spells - even those not normally subject to dispel magic.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm

[TooSoon]

The Dispel epic seed specifically states it can defeat all spells - even those not normally subject to dispel magic.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm

The actual spell itself provides a clear description of it's abilities that give it no such capability. It says the spell works like dispel magic, but with a higher caster check. That's the actual spell. You can say that it's not fair that the spell was designed that way, there are always areas of the rules where people can gripe about inconsistencies and loopholes (I actually kind of agree with you here, it isn't fair), and if you want to create your own version of an Epic Dispel that is homebrewed, which can dispel an Anti-magic field, you no doubt can. The actual textbook version of the spell does not give it this ability though.

If we were to make an argument in the alternative and say "hey, what if the spell could do it" then it still wouldn't help Xykon much. The Ancient Black Dragon can cast an AMF between 10 and 16 times per day. There's no way Xykon can cast Superb Dispelling that many times per day, and even if he could the act of doing so would kill him (making further action by the dragon unnecessary), due to the backlash damage.

[hamishspence]

The actual spell itself provides a clear description of it's abilities that give it no such capability. It says the spell works like dispel magic, but with a higher caster check. That's the actual spell.

Like greater dispel magic, yes.

But Referring back to the dispel seed gives a more complete description of what the spell specifically can and can't dispel.

The seed descriptions are the primary source for what an epic spell that uses one of those seeds, can do.

[TooSoon]

Like greater dispel magic, yes.

But Referring back to the dispel seed gives a more complete description of what the spell specifically can and can't dispel.

The seed descriptions are the primary source for what an epic spell that uses one of those seeds, can do.

I wouldn't go as far as to say "the card says Moops", but I would say the actual spell as given does not include that function and spells are taken to do what the spell description says, so a DM would need to add it on to the spell IMO. There are lots of areas in the rules where the actual rules are not always 100% consistent with each other, and you can look at it and say "well that's not fair/right", and maybe it'll be homeruled in or not. It's irrelevant in practical terms though because Xykon will be dead from backlash damage long before the dragon runs out of uses of the AMF.

[hamishspence]

If you developed it yourself from scratch, starting with the dispel seed and applying the exact same factors, then it would have all the benefits the dispel seed grants. So it's reasonable to presume that the capabilities of any epic spell that uses the dispel seed, are the same as the capabilities of the dispel seed itself.


The last time I brought it up:

The Dispel Seed (from which Superb Dispelling is developed) does say it works on everything:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm

This seed can end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, or end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. The dispel seed can defeat all spells, even those not normally subject to dispel magic.

So that's where I went wrong. Didn't look up the seed. Oh well, it was a fun thought while it lasted.

nobody had any problem with the concept of referring back to the rules for the dispel seed itself.

[TooSoon]

If you developed it yourself from scratch, starting with the dispel seed and applying the exact same factors, then it would have all the benefits the dispel seed grants. So it's reasonable to presume that the capabilities of any epic spell that uses the dispel seed, are the same as the capabilities of the dispel seed itself.


The last time I brought it up:




nobody had any problem with the concept of referring back to the rules for the dispel seed itself.

Maybe I'm just too much of a stickler for the black letter rules as written. As I said, either way it's not going to help Xykon if he tries to solo the ABD.

[hamishspence]

Xykon's Epic Mage Armour spell has a chance of functioning, which means he could cast that and engage the dragon in melee.

If the dragon casts antimagic field, it loses the ability to attack Xykon with anything other than melee attacks - forcing it to expose itself to Xykon's own opportunity attacks.

Though I'd suspect the dragon could outlast Xykon in this kind of melee fight.

[Emanick]

I'm not sure if Xykon would think to do this, but couldn't he counterspell antimagic field? He should have more spell slots than pretty much any dragon out there.

Or is that not possible because of how draconic casting works? I'll admit I've never considered a scenario where somebody tries to counterspell a dragon before.

[hamishspence]

He'd need to have the spell himself.

Though, since O-Chul's list is incomplete, he may do:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html

Or, alternatively, he'd need the Improved Counterspell feat.

The problem is, as a sorcerer, the dragon can just spam it.

Range may also be a factor - since the spell's designed to be used on oneself, it's possible that Xykon would need to be within 10 ft of the dragon since it's a 10 ft emanation.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOver...#counterspells

If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.

To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.

[Kelenius]

The problem is, as a sorcerer, the dragon can just spam it.

So is Xykon, though.

[hamishspence]

The main advantage of Antimagic Field is that it can turn a caster fight (or a supernatural-abilities fight) into a physical fight - and the dragon is better physically than Xykon is (though Xykon is pretty strong, he's not dragon-level strong).

After Xykon's run-in with the Silver, I can believe that on sighting a Gargantuan dragon, Xykon would retreat - especially if he saw it casting Antimagic Field - even if he can beat the dragon, he'd feel the risk to himself unacceptably high.

[Kantaki]

So is Xykon, though.

But has he more spells to burn through?
Because once those run out Xykon's a unusually animate skeleton*, while the dragon... is still a dragon.

*Yeah, yeah, as a Lich he probably as a few tricks build in, but I don't know, are those big enough to matter?

[hamishspence]

But has he more spells to burn through?
Because once those run out Xykon's a unusually animate skeleton*, while the dragon... is still a dragon.

*Yeah, yeah, as a Lich he probably as a few tricks build in, but I don't know, are those big enough to matter?

Casting antimagic field (which is always cast on self) is going to remove the dragon's own Damage Reduction, at least - it's DR/Magic, which is Supernatural.


The Feb. 17, 2006 errata for the Monster Manual on page 1 includes the following entry:

Damage Reduction

Damage Reduction is either extraordinary (Ex) or supernatural (Su). Use the following guidelines if it is not specified.

DR X/slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning should be (Ex)
DR X/adamantine should be (Ex)
DR X/— should be (Ex)
DR X/silver or cold iron should be (Su)
DR X/magic should be (Su)
DR X/chaotic, lawful, holy, or unholy should be (Su)

[TooSoon]

Xykon's Epic Mage Armour spell has a chance of functioning, which means he could cast that and engage the dragon in melee.

If the dragon casts antimagic field, it loses the ability to attack Xykon with anything other than melee attacks - forcing it to expose itself to Xykon's own opportunity attacks.

Though I'd suspect the dragon could outlast Xykon in this kind of melee fight.

Epic Mage Armour isn't going to help Xykon in a fist fight with a freaking dragon, as others (and yourself) have basically surmised already. Xykon, on the spells we know he has, is basically going to have to run in a 1 v 1 with the Dragon (and if he doesn't do that immediately, it might be too late for him to even do that).

[hamishspence]

Epic Mage Armour isn't going to help Xykon in a fist fight with a freaking dragon, as others (and yourself) have basically surmised already.

If he passes his check, it will function even in an antimagic field. It won't increase his offensive power, but it will increase his defensive power, and every little bit helps.

[TooSoon]

If he passes his check, it will function even in an antimagic field. It won't increase his offensive power, but it will increase his defensive power, and every little bit helps.

Yeh, but he's fighting an Ancient Black Dragon. The Dragon gets, what, 6 physical attacks per round to Xykon's 1? He can also grapple Xykon (though maybe not anymore with the boots he obtained), after which Xykon can't attack at all. It's just delaying the inevitable. Given the Dragon's speed he also can't escape the field once within it. The Dragon can still swallow him, right?

[hamishspence]

The main reason to cast the spell is to protect himself as much as possible until he can get to safety.

[TooSoon]

The main reason to cast the spell is to protect himself as much as possible until he can get to safety.

My assumption is Xykon just casts Epic Mage Armour at the start of each day anyway, so the only real question would be if it's still active. That said, it's moot either way, he's got no chance if he stays to fight, or doesn't escape in time.

[hamishspence]

Given the Dragon's speed he also can't escape the field once within it.

The problem is, readied actions take place before the action that triggers them. Which means you can't ready a move to follow someone, remaining the same distance away from them. So, no matter what the dragon does, Xykon is capable of moving away from it. And antimagic field is only a 10 ft emanation.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/sp...ions.htm#ready

Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

[Peelee]

I think a level 17 wizard would probably have a decent shot against the ABD, assuming s/he properly prepared or had a reasonably appropriate spell selection for the day - there are enough high-level disabling spells that you really only need to get lucky once or twice. Even a lower-level wizard could probably have interceded meaningfully, as the goal was really only to keep V's family safe. Fending off the dragon long enough to teleport away with V's family would have been something even a lower-leveled wizard than V may have been able to pull off, given the right spell selection, and a 15th level wizard with the maze spell prepared would be nearly guaranteed to be able to buy enough time to evacuate V's family.

What would "reasonably appropriate" be if you didn't even expect to fight a massively powerful dragon, though? And, even if we assume an unlikely-to-be-true low age category for the dragon, such as old, that's still a challenge rating of 16, which means it's an appropriate encounter for a party of four level 16 characters. Considering all sorts of synergy and benefits teamwork brings, not to mention the hugely important action economy, a one-on-one battle against a creature that powerful is something not to be taken lightly. And the ABD is likely stronger even than that.

I do agree that A would likely have been able to intercede meaningfully. The fiends seem to as well; they explicitly say "intercede," and not "kill" or "destroy" or anything to that effect. Heck, interceding could be as simple as teleporting there, grabbing the spouse and kids, and teleporting out. With a Quickened Teleport and some luck, that could even be done in a single round, and accomplished by a wizard as low as level 9 (not that I am suggesting Aarindarius is this low). The problem is, the argument isn't whether A could have interceded; its whether A could have killed the dragon. Which is a whole 'nother league.

[Joerg]

The problem is, as a sorcerer, the dragon can just spam it.

She seemed to have a reason not to spam it against Darth V, which also looks like a winning tactic to me. How many disjunctions can they have prepared? Maybe she just doesn't realize this advantage. Maybe she's too confident in her other abilities. Anyway, maybe the same reason would also count in a hypothetical fight against Xykon.

[TooSoon]

She seemed to have a reason not to spam it against Darth V, which also looks like a winning tactic to me. How many disjunctions can they have prepared? Maybe she just doesn't realize this advantage. Maybe she's too confident in her other abilities. Anyway, maybe the same reason would also count in a hypothetical fight against Xykon.

I just don't think the argument for the Dragon losing can be "she'll fight dumb", especially against freaking Xykon (who constantly fights dumb). The Dragon showed herself to be meticulous and intelligent in her planning. The reason she's panicking against V is she's got no idea what's going on, and all her planning is being thrown to the wind; how did this guy teleport here, I know he can't teleport, wtf he's out of disintegrates, disjunction! I know this guy doesn't have 9th tier spells, what the F is going on?! If I saw Xykon dispel the AMF with a 9th tier spell, I'd think about trying it again, or running soon, cos the chances are they can do it again. The Dragon also takes a major hit in the moment after the AMF is removed, so every time the Dragon wastes a turn activating it she eats potentially lethal damage. Tough gambit. In Xykon's case 1) he can't quicken spells, so if his spell is houseruled to be able to remove an AMF then she has no reason to panic about trying it again, and 2) Xykon's spell will be readily identifyible as Epic (partly since nothing non-epic except disjunction can remove an AMF) so she knows he's got a strict limit on how much he can cast it. There's also the big backlash marks from damage she's seeing appear every time he does. If the person she's fighting can both cast 10-16 Epic spells in a row, and survive 10-16 lots of 10d6 backlash damage, then it's time to run (but Xykon almost certainly can't do either).

I also don't think looking at CRs is a helpful way of determining if A can fend off the ABD. It's like assuming a level 16 Wizard is the same strength as a level 16 fighter. Ok, yes, they are theoretically the same level... but a vaguely optimized wizard will be more powerful than a whole team of fighters of the same level, with some minor caveats. This dragon exceeds their CR probably, because they have a super pesky AMF, but a level 17 wizard with the right spells could also probably stalemate them.

[Peelee]

Black Dragon has been confirmed as Ancient, it seems.

[Jasdoif]

Black Dragon has been confirmed as Ancient, it seems.

Should probably link it....

1.) Winters King: What was the giant shadowy sea monster that scared off the giant crab during the underwater section in the bonus pages of dont split the party?

Rich: It was the ancient black dragon mother who later attacked Vaarsuvius. I think because everyone read those bonus strips long after the resolution of the black dragon story, there’s been an expectation from some readers that I was introducing something new in that scene. But the thing is, I wrote that sequence while the story was in progress and then cut it. So it was intended as foreshadowing for events that hadn’t happened yet at that time.