Fantasy vs technology concept

[Patmeister]

Hey, I've done up a treatment on a world to surround the game I've built in another thread, for a second party I'll be DM'ing.

It's a bit long! So the TL:DR is:

Ever thought about the intrinsic inequalities in a D&D setting? What do you think the average life expectancy of a rich person is compared to a poor person, maybe a few decades or more? Think that isn't noticed? If the plague sweeps through, the local clerics may offer some healing spells for free to the masses, but the rich will just pay for a potion to keep themselves alive. Wizards are even worse! What do they charge for various services compared to what a peasant can pay?

At some point, some force took over one of the kingdoms, and launched them on a hundred year long war against basically everyone, including organised religion and mages guilds, expanding and expanding. Now, they've decimated the world, and are growing an empire, and everyone has had to adapt in sometimes surprising ways.

Read away! I know it's a bit long, but let me know what you think!



The World of Coren in the 133rd year of the Illyrian Wars.

The world is aflame, and most are living under the heel of a lawful evil empire that has conquered much of the world over the past 133 years. The expansion has yet to be stopped, and vast armies have arrayed against them and been defeated one after another. The Illyrians have been dogmatically stamping out magic, with its technological edge, better armour, better weapons, better tactics, seemingly endless ability to raise new cohorts and armies, overcoming even the worst of losses.

The Empire grew and grew for the first thirty years of the war. At first, some welcomed it, they stamped out orcish hordes, eliminated goblin raiding and brought order within their borders, cracking down on smuggling and thieves guilds. People turned a blind eye to the crackdowns, banning fortune tellers, magic shops, apothecaries making use of magic, and a host of otherwise mainstream religions. Many picked up and moved, trying to stay ahead of the ever expanding empire.

The Illyrian leadership argued that magic and religion were tools of the rich to control the poor. That the system itself was rigged, they argued that the poor saw none of the benefits that the gods brought, as they couldn’t afford a cure light wounds spell if they broke their leg from a fall, but the rich could be healed instantly from the plague just by drinking a potion that they bought. Mages guilds were no better, the rich could, if they felt like it, pay to be able to literally fly, just for fun.

In the 27th year of the Illyrian War, as it had become called,. The Illyrians changed all the rules, drastically expanding the war. It was announced that a grand spectacle would be seen on the tournament grounds of the capital city. Citizens and the leadership flocked to the event. Official Illyrian wizards, known as the Cadre, were already gathered on the field, undertaking a ritual, with a force of the Empires most senior leadership. It’s unknown how long the ritual had been underway, but eventually the skies turned dark, and rolling thunder could be heard all around. The air itself is said to have felt electric, and the smell of freshly fallen rain permeated. With a great clap of thunder and burst of light, the Assassin God Cyric was dragged down to Coren (the name of the world). There are many rumours and stories of what happened next, but the general consensus was that Cyric, shocked beyond words, immediately killed the nearest person, whether that was a wizard or a warrior, it’s not clearly known. He then tried to run, hurling magic and throwing daggers as he went. On an open field, in broad daylight, with all of the greatest champions of the Illyrians present, it did not take long. Cyric was surrounded and killed.

The following week was another event, and another god. This time Tymora. Once again, Tymora did her best to escape, then to fight, but all of the preparations had been made and she was surrounded, and killed.

The war was now encompassing the entirety of the plane of existence. In an attempt to escape the fate of death on the tournament grounds, many gods descended to Coren, taking refuge with their followers. While most gods wished to find ways to avoid fate, it should be noted that two chose to meet the challenge head on.

Both Tempus and Lolth were well aware that they would be early targets. As a strongly lawful empire, the Illyrians would seek to end the influence of the chaotic war god, similarly, the scheming underhanded and brilliant god of the Drow needed to be killed.

Officially, these events did not happen, under no circumstances do the Illyrian authorities allow written record of these events to exist. However, given what happened, even now, well over 100 years later, it’s still whispered about in many circles.

For both, their worshippers infiltrated the city in large numbers in advance.

Lolth’s followers, in disguise, were distributed throughout the stadium, dozens of her highest priestesses. When Lolth was drawn down, the entire coliseum was immediately engulfed in darkness, a darkness where no noise could travel. When the darkness lifted, multiple members of the Concordat were lying dead, along with thousands of spectators, and no drow could be seen. Rumours persist that over the weeks and months that followed, high ranking members of the Empire were mysteriously murdered. It came to be called the Whisper of Lolth.

Tempus, when it came to his day, the ritual seemed to be taking longer than usual, the skies were not darkening. At a certain point, the members of the Concordat and the Cadre all began to look at each other uneasily. Tempus had outflanked them, and was the first god to come down to Coren on their own terms. As the ritual began to sputter, Tempus, having already taken physical form, suddenly grew to be 20 feet tall and leapt down from the stands with a hundred of his strongest and most loyal followers, he undertook a full assault of the Concordat. At the same time, a small army of his supporters, who had gathered in secret, assaulted the capital city, smashing down the walls and breaking in. Even here, the Illyrians were prepared, fighting back against the assault, and combating the attack by Tempus. After three bloody days of street to street fighting, Tempus’s army withdrew from the city, Tempus led the rearguard action himself, protecting the withdrawal. The army has continued to operate, raiding and fighting, to this day.

After the gods themselves were drawn in, the Grand Alliance was born. In a council of war with the Dwarven clans, Elven houses, Orcish hordes, Hobgoblin hosts, and Giant families, an agreement was made to form a grand army, the likes of which Coren never seen. Gruumsh himself represented the Orcs. The armies met several major victories, driving deep into Illyrian territory, before the armies of the Illyrians were able to combine. At the Battle of Crowsnest Pass, the Illyrians drove the armies apart. As the Dwarves and Elves prepared to counterattack, Moradin, the Dwarven creator, and Corellon Larethian, the Elven creator, were dragged down to earth and killed on the open fields between the armies.

The morale was broken. As the legend states, only Gruumsh and his Orcs were able to maintain an effective fighting force, continuing to drive into the Illyrians, but their numbers were not large enough and they had to withdraw further into the mountains.

Over the next ten years, vast numbers fled the continent or carved out magically sealed communities, using magic that the Illyrians could not break, and still have not broken to this day.

Then followed 100 years of expanding Illyrian power. The Illyrians built teams that hunted down and drastically reduced the dragon population, killing chromatic, gem and metallic alike.

The elven and dwarven kingdoms have drawn back, still holding a defensive line against the Illyrians, as a combined force, allied to an orcish kingdom bordering them. The borderlands are an area of constant warfare. There are Dwarven strongholds deep in the mountains, still independent.

More generally, the territories under Illyrian control still have elves, dwarves halflings etc, it’s the empires of the dwarves and elves that Illyria is at war with, not the individuals.

Stories abound of ways to sneak into the magically sealed communities, known as sanctuaries. It’s believed that a number of gods are hiding there, but that could just be the faint hope of their followers, that their god somehow escaped the devestation. Religious worship continues, but in secret, where the Illyrians find it, they stamp it out.

Territorially, the Illyrian Empire has a core area well under their control, and a vast territory where they hold local authorities to account for taxation, but have little physical control. To account for that, they have large scale military patrols that move through those territories, searching and enforcing the will of the Empire. When a patrol isn’t present in an area, life is normal, but with the ever present fear of a crackdown.

Nobody knows what gods are dead versus in hiding.

In a world as this, where the law and information is tightly controlled by a lawful evil empire, what is real information, and what is information put forward by the regime is something that everyone knows is different, but people are careful whom they admit that to.

Where do we start?

The campaign is going to start in vassal state, one of the outlying areas that is still being run as a semi-controlled state of the Illyrian Empire.

It’s on the borderlands near to the front lines between Ilyria and the Elven/Dwarven/Orcish alliance. There are Illyrian officials, but it’s a sort of “wild west” sort of like in Firefly, or Tatooine.

Prior to the Illyrian War, the area was a part of the Gerran Kingdom, a high magic kingdom with a long history and royal family. After conquest by the Illyrians, some castles were repurposed for Illyrian use, but many were destroyed. The various wizards towers, mages guilds and academies were all destroyed, littering the region with ruins. Thanks to the constant warfare of the past century, the population is now much reduced, and few of the ruins have been picked over by graverobbers and looters for goods. Rumours abound of buried treasure, maps to cache’s of magical items, royal treasure that was stolen out of the kingdom in the dead of night and hidden in tunnels or dungeons.

Similar to the stories of treasure, rumours are spread quietly that the royal family line continues and will rise again, there’s still an undercurrent of nationalism in some circles. Many don’t mind, under the Gerran Kingdom, they paid taxes and sent young men to fight in wars, and now they pay taxes and send young men to fight in wars, for many, the name on the tin changed, but inside is the same product.

The town of Athelrey is a town of a few thousand residents, formerly much larger before the war. Many buildings are abandoned, and are regularly stripped to be used in renovations of other buildings or building anew. The Illyrians only loosely control the area. The Illyrian public service has been growing for decades, and in towns of this size, they provide a city regent, to work closely with the town leadership in managing the affairs. As well, a doctor has been provided from the capital, to staff the new hospital that has been built, she has been training a number of nurses to assist in the new way of operating, where they clean and dress wounds rather than cure them. The Empire also provide a school, focusing on science, math and engineering, that provides universal education, the best and brightest are given scholarship opportunities in the capital, where they are then brought into the public service, the teacher here was originally one of those bright students, he’s been stationed back in his hometown as a connection between the Empire and the town.

The PC’s can be a group of would-be adventurers, seeking contracts or rumours of wealth and fame.

[KragBrightscale]

Oooo what a juicy setting! So many potential directions the party could take this. I may have gone overboard but here’s some thoughts:

So, magic and religion where outlawed due to it being classist and unfair to the poor. Correct? How is the current empire treating its lower class population now? Are there government sponsored programs that provide the healthcare and other necessities?

You mentioned several times that the empire was lawful evil, my question is whether the empire itself is evil, or there are a large number of evil characters that have been working their way up through the ranks, and corrupting what started as a revolution for the good of the commoners.

What is the view of the citizens, do they consider what happened to the gods as “bringing justice upon those who have manipulated and played with the fate of civilization”? As “the liberation of the living from the shackles of the divine”? Or did some start to question things when the “good” gods where not spared?

Since your party starts within empire territory (I think you mentioned this), it could interesting if they are unaware of the dark and evil side of the empire, if you feed them 1 sided stories of the good that has come with the empire.

Low level quests could have them fighting for the empire and their town, though magic and divine power would have to be considered a myth or labeled as evil in nature.

Later the party could encounter evidence of the other side of the story, and have to decide where they stand.

Honestly so much potential here..

What happens to those born with magical talent (sorcerers for example)? Would it be considered a curse that they try to hide? Would they be hunted if discovered?

Does the government have a monopoly on the right to use magic, so that in order to learn and use magic one would have to be a government official? So young sorcerers are recruited as soon as their power manifests, trained, brainwashed, and used as agents?

What are the consequences of various gods being slain? Has the balance of the world been broken? Are there anomalies caused by gods no longer presiding over their domain?

Is the empire actually governed by an emperor? Or was the ruling class disposed of along with the feudal system in favor of a council of elected officials.

[Tom Kalbfus]

What tech level is the Empire? Do they come from off world? Do they have spaceships? How about robots? How high tech is the Empire, has it colonized more than one world? I'm thinking about running a similar campaign using Traveller T20/Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 rule sets. I've noticed than with T20, you basic entry level character is at 6th level, with D&D its first level, but there is no reason why the D&D part of it couldn't start at 6th level as well. Traveller weapons do a lot of damage, but then Traveller T20 has a rule using AR to subtract dice of damage, archaic armor (D&D 3.5 armor) only had half the AR versus modern weapons as it does versus archaic weapons (D&D 3.5 weapons) and archaic armor doesn't apply AR to damage Dice reductions at all, people wearing archaic armor take full damage whenever they get hit. The T20 rules apply the dexterity modifier to both melees and ranged attacks, but my house rule is to use the D&D rules and apply the strength mod to both to hit roles for melee weapons and to damage of the same weapon.

[KragBrightscale]

Totally forgot to ask about tech! What kind of tech are we talking about here?

Gunpowder + napoleonic style warfare, early traces of industrialization?

Magi-tech?

Steam engines? Steam punk?

Or are we getting into modern tech, post industrialization, and more digital advances, with robots/automatons/mechas/aircraft ++

[Patmeister]

Really glad people are liking the concept!

Good question on tech, and one my players haven't asked.

I look at it as they have an edge in a host of ways, much better training regime's, based on a thorough understanding of nutrition, fitness and pedagogy mean that their army simply has an edge man to man. Think Strength 12 is the average strength of a solider of the Empire vs 10 for anyone else. Similarly, the smelting and smithing technology of the empire gives it an edge, all masterwork swords and armour, along with a significant edge on seige tech and accuracy. Lastly, the education of the army, down to the common soldier, makes their force much more effective.

Much more capable of complicated manoeuvres, well trained junior and senior leadership, soldiers that have well made shoes and so can march much further and faster than other armies, generals that have studied tactics for years and a coherent general staff structure that allows for far better coordination of units.

Toying with bringing in early gunpowder tech in a few ways, might still do that. I'm looking right now at it being a armies that are simply better, as well as maybe some underhanded stuff.

I think the empire at its core is run by people with dark intentions, and that that ripples through. The empire is one based not in a real sense of good justice. Still figuring out how to really demonstrate that.

Magical people, at the individual scale, are treated poorly, but it's structural groups, mages guilds, religion etc that captures the strong violent response.

Good question on monopoly on magic, I think I may go with that!

For the consequences of the fall of most gods? I'm super excited to explore that and the unravelling of magic!

[Tom Kalbfus]

So its low tech Napoleonic warfare then. The thing about technology is that both sides can use it.

[KragBrightscale]

True, tech can be used by both sides, as long as they can understand/replicate it.

Possible quest: steal tech (prototype/blueprint/research notes/etc)

Military-wise I’m imagining the empire have super disciplined legions (see Roman Empire), and if you decide to bring early stage gunpowder weapon’s the empire could have special battalions of musket-men with bayonets (see napoleonic warfare).

Maybe being the first to discover and make use of gunpowder is what gave the empire the upper hand in the first place. To those who encounter it for the first time, the shock factor could be devastating to morale.

Looking forward to whatever else you cook up for this setting.

[Accelerator]

It's nice to see stuff like this, I guess?

But a question:

1. Why hasn't anyone taken action to steal the tech for themselves?
2. Why are they able to absorb losses so easily, and yet everyone else doesn't?
3. So they have no magic? Then what do they do when somone gets sick? Do they just try to use mundane medicines?

[King of Nowhere]

you mentioned that the empire has wizards - they would need them, otherwise anyone with an invisibility spell could do whatever they please.
how does it work? do they have official wizard organizations that the magically talented have to join? how is magic managed?

do they have some god sponsoring them, or are they out to kill them all? would they take up some clerics to offer state medicine?

[Patmeister]

Hi! Thanks for the input again! I'm now running two campaigns in this setting and really enjoying starting to explore it.

Accelerator, you've got three really fascinating questions.

1. Why hasn't anyone taken action to steal the tech for themselves?

I'm addressing this with it being an issue of skillset and broad technological gain. One of the ideas is that they spend time and effort to make sure the rank and file soldier has better nutrition, physical fitness and training. Add in gunpowder for siege tech and a few other key things and it becomes hard to counter. Plus, the "general staff" advancement that is similar to 19th century Germany, and you've got a much more effective fighting force in a way that is hard to replicate.

2. Why are they able to absorb losses so easily, and yet everyone else doesn't?

Everyone asked that of Rome for hundreds of years! How did they lose 50 thousand killed to hannibal at Cannae and turn around and raise another army? Well, part of it is that they got the economics right, the push for greater skills, technology, knowledge has meant a booming economy, and people flock to join their army.

3. So they have no magic? Then what do they do when somone gets sick? Do they just try to use mundane medicines?

This one was a tricky one! I settled it with them having their own cadre of mages that specialise in countering magic. I'm toying with a school of divination that follows with their concept, but I'm not sure if I can manage it in a way that doesn't harm the theme.

Right now, I've decided that they have their core area that they directly control, and areas that are under client state control. So far, the PC's have only operated within the client state realm. The wizard takes pains to clarify that he is a scientist, and not a mage and so on. They have had some interactions with agents of empire, but so far it's been getting used to the general game world.

At the end of the day, I'm looking at having the leadership of this Empire be under the influence of something deep dark and sinister and I haven't figured out what yet. I'm thinking each of the leaders is still alive and varying degrees of still running the empire, some simply becoming caligula like decadence, others managing the empire quite closely, but all gaining benefits from some force, perhaps a banished god etc. Still trying to think of that, and I want to stat up each of the 12 (or however many) of them there are so they can be targets eventually for the PC's, and I want them to all be monstrous in some way shape or form.

Any thoughts on that?

[Wizard_Lizard]

I like the idea of the leaders being in some way corrupted. Perhaps they could have some kind of hypocracy and be using clerical magic to keep them alive forever. They might still be the original founders of the empire, just with either clones or being constantly ressurected.

[GaelofDarkness]

I just wanted to say that this looks really awesome. I'm pretty sure this setting would sow chaos and discord in my group since based on this framing I've got a diehard Illyrian, follower of Tempus and follower of Lolth. So it's definitely getting brought up at the next group video call

I'm imagining that since a large part of the Illyrian Empire's edge comes from their economy that there's a secret order dedicated to Waukeen that is working towards the Empire's economic collapse. Perhaps the followers of Waukeen are considered traitors by the Grand Alliance because part of their strategy has been baiting the Empire into striking further and further afield - overextending themselves.

Or has the Illyrian Empire secretly been working with Waukeen behind closed doors, promising her continued survival in exchange for cooperation? Maybe the Empire mints coins with the face of a personified Illyria that's really Waukeen so her worship continues unnoticed.

Oh, so many opportunities for intersecting intrigues! Love it!

[Accelerator]

Hi! Thanks for the input again! I'm now running two campaigns in this setting and really enjoying starting to explore it.

Accelerator, you've got three really fascinating questions.

1. Why hasn't anyone taken action to steal the tech for themselves?

I'm addressing this with it being an issue of skillset and broad technological gain. One of the ideas is that they spend time and effort to make sure the rank and file soldier has better nutrition, physical fitness and training. Add in gunpowder for siege tech and a few other key things and it becomes hard to counter. Plus, the "general staff" advancement that is similar to 19th century Germany, and you've got a much more effective fighting force in a way that is hard to replicate.

2. Why are they able to absorb losses so easily, and yet everyone else doesn't?

Everyone asked that of Rome for hundreds of years! How did they lose 50 thousand killed to hannibal at Cannae and turn around and raise another army? Well, part of it is that they got the economics right, the push for greater skills, technology, knowledge has meant a booming economy, and people flock to join their army.

Well, then nothing stops other people from, well, doing the same thing. Presuming that your anti-magic empire is not the majority of the world, then that means that by relying on magic to boost populations (kill plagues, enhance agriculture, make safer births) then this advantage of higher manpower can quite easily start ending. Especially when you are on a constant campaign.

[Patmeister]

Wizard Lizard - You've hit the nail on the head for my intention!

GaelofDarkness - I pitched it to one of the group of players and, after reading the outline AND a half hour of discussing the concept with me they asked "should we be for the empire or against it?" I shrugged and a player suggested the characters should find their way and maybe it would be cool to have a party with mixed opinions that are slowly brought to the surface. That seems to be what they're now going with!

However, for gods, I'm using a very loose mix of gods and not strictly faerun, and in fact, I want to minimise their input on the whole. I'm currently thinking the Empire is getting it's power from something extraplanar and not a part of the hierarchy of gods that existed before they arose.

Thanks for suggesting I look into Waukeen, seems interesting, and not a god I had been particularly familiar with, might bring it into the world!

Accelerator, you raise that point, but many many many empires kept saying that Rome couldn't possibly keep going after loss after loss, but Rome did, and for a number of complex reasons!

Maybe they took in war refugees, promised citizenship for service, and created armies out of it. The fact is, empires that span continents have happened in human civilization dozens of times. What was it about the Mongols that allowed them to conquer everything and not have what they were doing be emulated? Why did the British take over massively more numerous, and just as technologically advanced nations in India? It's never a clear cut answer, but it's always possible.

Your questions indicate you don't believe it to be possible for what I propose, but I'm curious why? Or are you trying to ask me to enumerate reasons?