What are my feelings doing? (So I've read Start of Darkness)

[Kafit]

And it was great! I had heard lots of good things about it, sure, but I wasn't ready for this...

The characters, the storyline, the choices they make, the finish, the... all of it!

I'm sorry, i'm not going to add anything on what was surely heavily discussed before. I'm not even able to organize my own ideas about this work right now... Maybe in a few days... Maybe after a second reading...

I just.. needed to say how much of a great reading experience it was...

Spoiler: I wasn't spoiled, I don't want to spoil

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Redcloack was that close to find peace... That close!

Normally I would bother my friend with that kind of stuff, and not the forum, but... I don't want to risk to spoil it to him, and the current situation makes it difficult to lend him the book...

Spoiler: Still don't want to spoil it

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Right-eye. You... Why?

It was so different from the rest of Oots, and yet it works so well...

[understatement]

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Redcloak killing Right-Eye is such a morally deplorable moment

that I bet all my rather limited $$ Redcloak is definitely going to die. No Gobbotopia leader for him.

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Although I can't see MITD swallowing RC alive. That was SOD-only.

[PopeLinus1]

[Morquard]

that I bet all my rather limited $$ Redcloak is definitely going to die. No Gobbotopia leader for him.

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Although I can't see MITD swallowing RC alive. That was SOD-only.

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I agree with your first assessment, I think RC is certainly not surviving this. I don't think that it was in SOD is a problem though, the Giant has made a flashback to OotPCs or SoD in the past when things suddenly became important. t's not too hard. However the MitD has grown since then, and we know its pretty powerful it might a) be able to resist the compulsion or b) simply not be there because it betrayed Xykon/RC at that time.

My personal thought is that RC gets smoked by the Dark One though, as I don't think TDO really has the goblin's best interest at heart, and ocne RC realizes that, he's done with him.

[Peelee]

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My personal thought is that RC gets smoked by the Dark One though, as I don't think TDO really has the goblin's best interest at heart, and ocne RC realizes that, he's done with him.

I wouldn't say "smoked," but I would agree he's likely to show his dissatisfaction in another way.

[mjasghar]

Sunk cost fallacy
His internal idea is that all the stuff he did was for the Plan so if he doesn’t carry on doing bad stuff it makes the sacrifices worthless
The fact he is evil in alignment means he thinks he is making the sacrifice when it was actually other people

[PontificatusRex]

Start of Darkness is up there with the Elric saga as far as masterpieces of tragic fantasy go, in my opinion.

In fact, I think you could make a pretty good analogy that Xykon is to Redcloak as Stormbringer is to Elric...

[Finagle]

I just don't see Redcloak failing. What with the social justice angle, if goblins get the shaft again it's just wrong. With paladins being fascist lackeys and genocidaires, it seems like the natural conclusion of the story is that the Dark One assumes his rightful place among the Gods, his quiddity is used to defeat the Snarl, and goblins get equal rights. Any story that doesn't end with fascists getting punched in the face seems unseemly. Goblins remaining sword fodder for the puppets of fancy alien wizards is an ending that wouldn't be a happy one for Elan. And the Oracle has had a 100% accuracy rating as long as we've known him.

[Kantaki]

I just don't see Redcloak failing. What with the social justice angle, if goblins get the shaft again it's just wrong. With paladins being fascist lackeys and genocidaires, it seems like the natural conclusion of the story is that the Dark One assumes his rightful place among the Gods, his quiddity is used to defeat the Snarl, and goblins get equal rights. Any story that doesn't end with fascists getting punched in the face seems unseemly. Goblins remaining sword fodder for the puppets of fancy alien wizards is an ending that wouldn't be a happy one for Elan. And the Oracle has had a 100% accuracy rating as long as we've known him.

That's only if we assume everything Redcloak has said about the origin of goblins and the Dark One is true.
I mean, sure, Goblins probably got the short end of the stick when it comes to resources and stuff*, but the whole "created only as XP-fodder" is likely a exaggeration/ assuming malice when it was more likely sheer idiocy.
And I don't think "Goblin equality" (or superiority) is what TDO cares about- Oona even says that he cares less about the Bugbears.

Otherwise he would've told RC to keep working on Gobbotopia.
If anything what Redcloak is doing right now is hurting his and his god's alleged cause.
How many goblinoid settlements had their peace disrupted now?
Has it been more than three already?
Redcloak's crusade has cost more gobbo lives than even a army of low level adventurers would have during their career.

And while the Bugbears might mostly live in peace because they're in the middle of nowhere far away from everyone, they're still fairly well off.
The Hobgoblins even had several fortresses and settlements for their civilians.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Righteye's village managed to coexist peacefully with the local humans.
And the main reason RC and RE's home got wrecked was that the previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle lived there.

*And sure, the Sapphire Guard's were a tad extreme, but their main goal was to take out the High Priest of the Dark One- who works (worked, will work) on a plan that risks all of existance and goes directly against their mission to protect the Gates.
Besides, I think the fall of Azure City makes up for that.

[Morty]

It's a very big mistake to assume that what's good for Redcloak and the Dark One is the same as what's good for the goblin people.

[Morquard]

I just don't see Redcloak failing. What with the social justice angle, if goblins get the shaft again it's just wrong. With paladins being fascist lackeys and genocidaires, it seems like the natural conclusion of the story is that the Dark One assumes his rightful place among the Gods, his quiddity is used to defeat the Snarl, and goblins get equal rights. Any story that doesn't end with fascists getting punched in the face seems unseemly. Goblins remaining sword fodder for the puppets of fancy alien wizards is an ending that wouldn't be a happy one for Elan. And the Oracle has had a 100% accuracy rating as long as we've known him.

The funny thing is: Almost all that is already achieved.
Paladins are all but wiped out. The three that still exist, to our knowledge had no part in the extermination. The Giant has confirmed earlier that some of those that did actually fell in response to their actions there.
Equal rights: Gobotopia is negotiating trade deals and all that with other cities. That stuff is already happening.
If they're living there, they likely won't be sword fodder anymore either. And most of that actually is that Goblins are "Always Evil" alignment, and as such do horrible things, and often they get wiped out or attacked in response to that.

The big thing is if the Dark One will take his place with the other gods. Maybe. Maybe not. I assume he has to, if Thors plan is going to work. But I have a feeling there is a third option. Roy already said they don't know everything about the Snarl... What if some peace can be achieved with it? Then the Dark One wouldn't be needed anymore.

Because I don't think TDO was at all honest with Redcloak. My theory is the Mantle scans the wearers thoughts and then gives them a story that will most likely get them aboard with the plan. RC had just had his village slaughtered, and as such was very susceptible to "Equal rights for gobos, we're just XP fodder for the others"

Also if the Plan works, do you really think TDO will stop at "Goblin Equality"? Or will he go for "Goblin dominance"?

[hamishspence]

Gobotopia is negotiating trade deals and all that with other cities. That stuff is already happening.
If they're living there, they likely won't be sword fodder anymore either. And most of that actually is that Goblins are "Always Evil" alignment, and as such do horrible things, and often they get wiped out or attacked in response to that.

Usually Evil. And IMO it's pretty clear that in OOTS, this is cultural rather than inborn.

As The Giant once said:

Leave inborn alignment to the overtly supernatural—if it exists at all—and away from biological creatures.

[Morquard]

Usually Evil. And IMO it's pretty clear that in OOTS, this is cultural rather than inborn.

You're right, my bad, it's usually. But if a tribe of goblins keeps raiding your farms, kills the farmers, it doesn't matter if its inborn or cultural, you're gonna hire adventurers to take care of them.

[hamishspence]

Paladins are all but wiped out. The three that still exist, to our knowledge had no part in the extermination. The Giant has confirmed earlier that some of those that did actually fell in response to their actions there.

The Sapphire Guard weren't the only beings out there that subscribed to "Monsters only exist so we can kill them" - Roy's first adventuring party were like that too.

Yokyok discovered the hard way that adventurers are more interested in getting paid to kill, than in sorting out the rights and wrongs of a situation:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html

And then there's the "It's their fault they were killed - they live in such a cool adventuring location" characters:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html

In short - I think the whole "monsters" are treated unjustly by adventurers theme that The Dark One was getting at, has a certain amount of support. Destroying the Sapphire Guard won't have put a stop to that.

[Morquard]

The Sapphire Guard weren't the only beings out there that subscribed to "Monsters only exist so we can kill them" - Roy's first adventuring party were like that too.

You specifically called out the Paladins. Now you move the goalpost to mean "everyone that ever killed a goblin".

In short - I think the whole "monsters" are treated unjustly by adventurers theme that The Dark One was getting at, has a certain amount of support. Destroying the Sapphire Guard won't have put a stop to that.

No but founding Gobotopia likely will. No adventuring party will attack that city. And if they make treaties and don't betray them they will have allies, that see more good in trading with them, than attacking them either.

[Peelee]

You specifically called out the Paladins. Now you move the goalpost to mean "everyone that ever killed a goblin".

You sure about that?

[Morquard]

You sure about that?

Alright, it was not hamishspence that said that, I assumed it was, since he was defending that post. Sorry hamishspence

And since my post is a direct response to that, let me try to explain again, since I might not have been clear enough.

With paladins being fascist lackeys and genocidaires, [...] Any story that doesn't end with fascists getting punched in the face seems unseemly.

Specifically calling out the paladins as the fascists and requiring them to "get punched in the face". Which I stand by, has already happened.

Goblins remaining sword fodder for the puppets of fancy alien wizards is an ending that wouldn't be a happy one for Elan. And the Oracle has had a 100% accuracy rating as long as we've known him.

With the formation of Gobotobia as a nation and establishing diplomatic relationships with other nations, they a) form a network of allies, who would not want them wiped out because its profitable and b) are in a strong and definsible location that wandering adventurers can't just walk in and kill them "just to farm XP". Especially since Redcloak's story claims (if I remember correctly at least) that the goblins are XP fodder for low-level clerics. OOTS level adventurers might cause some trouble, but will get 0 XP for it.

Hence that part has also been fulfilled already.

My point being, Goblin Equality is fully within Redcloaks and the Goblins grasp, even completely without the Plan.

This does not preclude an alliance of nations forming and retaking Azure City, but that would be less because "we hate goblins" and more "we want our city back" - which seems unlikely too, as most "allies" of AC turned out to be not quite as good friends as Hinjo thought.

[Peelee]

Specifically calling out the paladins as the fascists and requiring them to "get punched in the face". Which I stand by, has already happened.

I agree. I disagree (and I suspect hamish dies as well) that the Sapphire Guard were the only ones with this mentality; adventurers in general are easily capable of having these same anti-goblin prejudices (which is not the same as "anyone can have killed a goblin") regardless of their nation's status. If anything, some might see Gobbotopia as a whole campaign for themselves, or high-level module.

[Schroeswald]

I agree. I disagree (and I suspect hamish dies as well) that the Sapphire Guard were the only ones with this mentality; adventurers in general are easily capable of having these same anti-goblin prejudices (which is not the same as "anyone can have killed a goblin") regardless of their nation's status. If anything, some might see Gobbotopia as a whole campaign for themselves, or high-level module.

<pssst> wrong thread oh great dragon.

[Peelee]

<pssst> wrong thread oh great dragon.

You sure about that?

[Morty]

The person who actually called paladins "fascist lackeys" in the comic was a man who was hopelessly wrong at predicting what those paladins would do and whose raging paranoia actively obstructed the heroes' efforts - though to be fair to him, he couldn't possibly have predicted his entire family being wiped out by Familicide. To take it as the comic's indented message requires some rather impressive selective reading.

As far as Gobbotopia is concerned, it was built on top of a conquered nation whose inhabitants were enslaved, killed or had to flee. And is directly below a Snarl rift. Any peaceful future for it needs to account for that first.

[Schroeswald]

You sure about that?

I guess not? I’m not sure what happened, oops I guess? Blame my sleep deprivation (and the fact that a billion threads over the same topic are going on at the same time).

[Fyraltari]

The person who actually called paladins "fascist lackeys" in the comic was a man who was hopelessly wrong at predicting what those paladins would do and whose raging paranoia actively obstructed the heroes' efforts - though to be fair to him, he couldn't possibly have predicted his entire family being wiped out by Familicide. To take it as the comic's indented message requires some rather impressive selective reading.

To be honest Gin-Jun’s ethical views could be accurately described as fascistic (if taken as an insult meaning broadly ‘authoritarian, violent and xenophobic’ rather than an actual political assessment).

As far as Gobbotopia is concerned, it was built on top of a conquered nation whose inhabitants were enslaved, killed or had to flee. And is directly below a Snarl rift. Any peaceful future for it needs to account for that first.

True, but that’s also true of every nation ever (except for the transdimensional tear hanging in the sky, that only concerns like, one nation out of three, tops).

[Peelee]

I guess not? I’m not sure what happened, oops I guess? Blame my sleep deprivation (and the fact that a billion threads over the same topic are going on at the same time).

If it makes you feel any better, I had to double check several times before I can't brave enough to post that reply.

To True, but that’s also true of every nation ever (except for the transdimensional tear hanging in the sky, that only concerns like, one nation out of three, tops).

I dunno, there's a good chance that some nations were built in place when the gods made the world. And if not, than the first nations would still be built on lands unsullied by such things.

[Morquard]

I agree. I disagree (and I suspect hamish dies as well) that the Sapphire Guard were the only ones with this mentality; adventurers in general are easily capable of having these same anti-goblin prejudices (which is not the same as "anyone can have killed a goblin") regardless of their nation's status. If anything, some might see Gobbotopia as a whole campaign for themselves, or high-level module.

There is a difference between "Hey, let's kill some goblins after breakfast, I wanna level up" and "It's our divine duty to wipe out the goblin race, down to the last child".
Yes adventurers are likely quite calous when it comes to the life of monsters. And yes that's horrible. But I think actively chasing them through different countries and wiping them out when you find them, is quite a bit of a step up from that.

[Peelee]

There is a difference between "Hey, let's kill some goblins after breakfast, I wanna level up" and "It's our divine duty to wipe out the goblin race, down to the last child".
Yes adventurers are likely quite calous when it comes to the life of monsters. And yes that's horrible. But I think actively chasing them through different countries and wiping them out when you find them, is quite a bit of a step up from that.

Yeah, and a green crayon shouldn't be in a box that's shades of red, but a pink one still will. Unless you want the Sapphire Guard's begavior to be the floor of anti-goblin prejudice, which I don't think you're proposing.

[Fyraltari]

"It's our divine duty to wipe out the goblin race, down to the last child".

Even the Sapphire Guard never went this far. The Crimson Mantle they’d chase to the end of the Earth* but not every random goblinoid tribe.

*Do you hear, Mal’ganis? TO THE END OF THE EARTH!
Sorry, that felt appropriate.

[Morquard]

Yeah, and a green crayon shouldn't be in a box that's shades of red, but a pink one still will. Unless you want the Sapphire Guard's begavior to be the floor of anti-goblin prejudice, which I don't think you're proposing.

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here

Even the Sapphire Guard never went this far. The Crimson Mantle they’d chase to the end of the Earth* but not every random goblinoid tribe.

*Do you hear, Mal’ganis? TO THE END OF THE EARTH!
Sorry, that felt appropriate.

I might be wrong on this, but I remember the SG not knowing anything about the Plan, or that the Mantle is an artifact of TDO. It was really just the marker of their high priest to them.

[Fyraltari]

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here


I might be wrong on this, but I remember the SG not knowing anything about the Plan, or that the Mantle is an artifact of TDO. It was really just the marker of their high priest to them.

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They knew the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle was a threat to the Gate which is why they attacked Redclaok's village (and according to the previous BCM attacked his master before him and her master before her) probably because the first BCM attacked Azure City to try to carry the plan out. However, at the time of the massacre of Redcloak's tribe they thought the Mantle was a simple symbol of office and neglected to destroy or secure it (some even prided themselves on their humility in not claiming it as a trophy). Yet, By th etime of How the Paladin Got his Scar they figured out its true nature somehow and Gin-Jun has been mentally flogging himself for years for their mistake which is part of why he is so unhinged in that story.

[Peelee]

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here

I'm saying there is more to systemic bigotry against the goblinoid people than simply genocide. Sure that's clearly worse, but that's not the only thing going on, and stopping that doesn't mean goblin racism is fixed. Less intense systemic hatred and killing is still systemic hatred and killing, even if it's not done on the scale that the Sapphire Guard did.