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2020-04-18, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Yeah, honestly, Roy's in the right here. The odds of a 25-word message even being able to get Redcloak to a negotiating table is slim as hell.
Honestly, their best chance, based on what the heroes know, is what Julia said: Take out Xykon so that Redcloak's plan can't work, then make a deal with him from a position of strength.
After all, if they try now? Redcloak might see it as a last, desperate attempt by the good guys to not lose, a sign that he's on the cusp of victory, while doing little to convince him of Durkon's sincerity. Taking his plan out of the picture but still offering to make a deal when they could just kill Redcloak and close up the campaign is more likely to convince Redcloak that this isn't a trick or a scheme, this is sincere.
Of course, what this is *really* doing is emphasizing that there's a growing split between Roy and Durkon's views on how they should deal with this. The (for lack of a better term) athiest and the true believer on a literal mission from their god... well, those goals and worldviews don't exactly align well, and this could cause... problems going forward.
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2020-04-18, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
I think Roy is right - there's just too much at stake, and not enough certainty for to be confident it would work. Why would he think that Redcloak would be open to such a message? We know Redcloak's motives, which is why we can argue about whether it might work... but Roy doesn't. He has no reason to believe that Redcloak would listen.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2020-04-18, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
The order doesn't know that RC plans to take control of the gate for his god. The Dark One is an evil god, and evil gods are generally known for wanting everything rather than settling or compromising. Even if RC didn't take the offer as a trap, he'd probably take it as a sign that the good guys are afraid of him and he should push ahead. RC is not aiming for equality, he's aiming for supremacy. And he's perfectly willing to play with fire to try and get it.
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2020-04-18, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-18, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Also, consider the Order's last experience with an evil deity.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2020-04-18, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Roy's correct that trying to convince Redcloak via a sending at this point is not smart but I think we're going to see that Durkon's impulse to be honest and forthright at the first chance is what Roy should be running with rather than continuing to just treat this as a big fight.
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2020-04-18, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Oh, I don't know. The last time it came up, Roy's plan to trust the vampire Durkon was clearly inferior to Belkar's plan to treat him like an enemy.
And thanks to Roy, we don't get to find out.
Redcloak might want this after The Dark One gets control of the last gate, not before. Helping re-build the Gates to preserve the world prevents Redcloak's god from getting what he's been after all this time.
Oh, I don't think Banjo's particularly evil.
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2020-04-19, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by goodpeople25; 2020-04-19 at 12:06 AM.
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2020-04-19, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2020-04-19, 03:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Only if the messenger speaks faster than Oona hunts.
Roy has no idea Minrah has been working on the message already.
Unless gods pull the strings on the world before the Gate is moved. As about half of them was already willing to do.
If the Gates fail, the Plan fails. End of world means starvation for TDO.
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2020-04-19, 04:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
The point is that Thor was always going to need the Dark One eventually anyway, Plan or no Plan. The Dark One, and by proxy Redcloak, were always going to be put in a position of strength in the negotiating table because this can't be fixed without the Dark One and a high-level DO priest, so what Redcloak did was unnecessary.
Now, granted, being able to threaten the other gods with releasing the Snarl on them would put the Dark One in an even stronger position, but personally I doubt that'll prove necessary to achieve the ostensible goals of the Plan. The goal is allegedly to get the gods to negotiate a fair deal, and the current situation will already achieve that.Last edited by hroşila; 2020-04-19 at 04:48 AM.
ungelic is us
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2020-04-19, 06:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Not convinced that's the *actual* goal here, mind you. The idea that goblinoids were created purely as XP fodder for low-level clerics to train on doesn't really add up when there are plenty of low-CR wild beasts that would do just as good a job, so I'm more inclined to think that the point is for goblinoids to gain an *advantage* over other humanoids.
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2020-04-19, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-19, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.
Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF. -- -- Petrocorus's 3.5 Paladin Builds List. -- -- French vs. EnglishOriginally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
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2020-04-19, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
I wonder what would happen if gods unmade the world while the last Gate was in Outer Planes. Would Snarl spill into the regular plane? Would the Gate hold? Would TDO be still able to open it and allow Snarl to attack the other gods (as a matter of vengeance, at that point)?
And anyway, there is a lot that the gods don't know. Thor only thinks TDO wants to move the Gate to the Outer Planes, he isn't sure about it or about the exact motivation. If TDO wants better position for goblinoids, he should be open to negotiations. If he wants revenge at all costs, he definitely isn't. We don't know what TDO knows, but he probably doesn't expect to starve during the interim period (or he would prioritize goblinoids to procreate like rabbits, most likely).
TDO needs to accept Thor's plan nowish to survive but he may not realise it. He may think he has enough time to wait for a better deal.
Good point. They are not very likely to have an emergency procedure because the situation became more dangerous.
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2020-04-19, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
I missed that one thread where everybody came up with ideas for the twenty-five-word sending, and now seems like the time for this:
Each pantheon has a color. (5)
Things of more colors are more real. (12)
The Snarl, a being of four colors, destroyed all the innumerable previous worlds. (25)
OR
Redcloak, I heard that you are not truly a goblin. (10)
Prove that you are a goblin and smell good by helping us construct a gate. (25)
OR
We have relevant information, hidden from the Dark One by the gods, on the Snarl.(15)
All plans must be reconsidered, it is time to parley.(25)Last edited by NihhusHuotAliro; 2020-04-19 at 04:10 PM.
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2020-04-19, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
From RC's perspective this is spot on. He also has good Charisma, not just higher than average INT. Your post is one of the few in this thread that, IMO, gets to the heart of the In-Character, and In-World, issues successfully. *golf clap*
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2020-04-19, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Rollin; 2023-04-04 at 02:04 AM. Reason: The numbers are clutter; readers can check the count easily enough
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2020-04-20, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Spoiler: Who sends the sending?
On an unrelated note, what're the odds that Minrah prepares sending tomorrow?
According to the Class and Level Geekery thread, she has at least five cleric levels. That's all you need for sending. This bet is a-go!
It only uses colorful tropical birds if you're in the tropics and catch colorful birds. Here, Team Evil would be roasting puffins or terns or something.
Even if it did, and even if Julia could teach it to Durkon, I'd be surprised if she managed to make a version that wasn't specific to her and Roy until maybe the week before it's due. If she's lucky.
There's been some discussion over whether Durkon's faith in Thor's plan will win out over his loyalty to Roy. This confuses me. Roy did not say "We will never contact Redcloak," he said "This is a bad time to contact Redcloak." Not only does this not contradict Thor's plan, and not only does it rely on one of Roy's strengths that Durkon trusts (his tactical mindset), Durkon knows Thor's tactics are to be questioned.
...Okay, that last one was a joke, but the first two should be enough to stop Durkon from having that kind of crisis. Really, the first one should, but it's been brought up and the discussion is still happening.
Spoiler: Miscellaneous Sending
There aren't a lot of problems that the Linear Guild had that the Order never did. The Order just never got their at together enough to communicate with anyone until after they (mostly) grew past that problem.
Whether or not they know if O'Chul is Cloistered, they know that he was with Lien. If he didn't return to the obvious OotS rendezvous point, the odds of him having escaped whatever capture/death/extraplanar adventure/etc caught Lien are slim.
"...Ye dinnae have to say 'click'."
Spoiler: Strategery
Roy simply believes that the element of surprise will either level the playing field or let him make more appealing gambles.
Your argument relies on Xykon having no powerful spells other than meteor swarm and energy drain, which is incorrect. Even assuming he only has the spells he is known to know, the Class and Level Geekery thread identifies mass hold person, cloudkill, symbol of insanity, lightning bolt, and worst of all,ray of frostenough epic spells that it's hardly implausible he learned more. One of which is superb dispelling (at least I assume it's epic—AFAIK, epic spells are the only spells sorcerers can research), which would also destroy your strategy.
Spoiler: Misc
Dystheist would be a better term. So would alatrist. Heck, even misotheist fits better than atheist.
"Atheist" means a lack of belief in any gods. It does not imply any attitude towards gods, much as "Hindu" does not imply any attitude towards Amaterasu or Osiris.
1. You clearly don't understand the food chain. The gods need to do some tinkering with the world to include enough low-CR creatures to level up adventurers.
2. Goblins aren't just low-level fodder. They (and other "savage" humanoids) can pick up class levels or amass in hordes and be meaningful opponents through the mid-levels.
3. The Giant has stated that, ever since a trans person shared their thoughts about the gender-swapping belt plotline, he's given matters of potential sensitivity some more consideration. Do you see such possible sensitivity coming up in a storyline where a movement to increase the power of a marginalized demographic is revealed to be pointless since they already had the same power as the dominant demographic, and just wanted control?
Alright, so from a meta perspective, Durkon's plan is doomed to failure because of Redcloak's fatal flaw, revealed in Start of Darkness...
Spoiler: ThatSpecifically, his tendency towards sunk-cost fallacy. He's unlikely to give up on the Xykon plan until it's totally untenable, now that countless goblins (including Right-Eye) died for it. The Order needs to change the situation pretty drastically for negotiations to have a ghost of a chance.
From what Roy knows, Team Evil's cleric is less chummy with their leader than the Order's cleric is with their leader, but I don't think the good guys have observed behavior from either Redcloak or Xykon that indicates their relationship is any more antagonistic than, say, Roy's and Elan's (and certainly not Roy's and Belkar's).
The only leverage they could apply, assuming Redcloak/TDO even believe them, is the possibility of an eternal world and maybe the threat of starvation should TDO not convince the other gods to settle...but that might backfire and lead to TDO wanting to use the possibility of other gods starving (and/or the old "Don't move or I'll shoot me!" plot, which will probably work on about half the gods) to prop up his plan. The Order doesn't know The Dark One's personality well enough to chance that kind of risk.
Redcloak is unlikely to become an ally at this time, unless his ties to Xykon are even weaker than they look. And what do the Order lose by contacting Redcloak? As Roy notes, the one advantage they know they have. Even if Redcloak is aware of the Mechane's approach, he doesn't know who's crewing it; I'm guessing he'd assume Julio Scoundrél before the Order. Sending to Redcloak would signal, at minimum, that:
- ...the Order is active.
- ...the Order is at/immediately approaching the North Pole.
- ...the Order has something to gain from allying with Redcloak (the obvious assumption being that they want a high-level cleric as magic-muscle against the epic lich)
And if Redcloak realizes they're telling the truth, he knows all sorts of stuff about TDO's position and how the world works...which, as noted above, may be bad on its own.
Roy knows that it's possible that Redcloak and The Dark One could be the type of high priest and god to trust what their enemies say and decide to cooperate with them...but he also knows that it's more likely they wouldn't be, and that trying to convince them would just give away valuable intelligence.
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2020-04-20, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
To back Roy up... Redcloak's under direct orders from his god to follow through with this plan - overcoming that initiative is going to take more than a pretty worded please. Not that the Order really knows this, but it seems really clear that RC's admirably loyal to his god and moreover... not even just his specific race, but to all Goblinoids across the board. In tandem with that... he's absolutely die-hard anti-humans/demi-humans.
Getting him to listen is going to take some serious intervention - either by Xykon losing and the Order leveraging that as per Roy, or him uncovering Redcloak's plans and deceptions or having known them all along leaving, our crimson caped cleric completely screwed and left with no other options.
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2020-04-20, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Am I the only one who read this as "Durkon is absolutely going behind Roy's back on this, probably immediately"? I'm surprised how many people think he's giving up for now just because that's the literal meaning of what he said.
Mm. "I don't think that'll be necessary" is admittedly pretty good evidence for that, but I'm sticking with my first impression on this. Not like I have anything to lose.Last edited by Hemoparty; 2020-04-20 at 12:26 AM.
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2020-04-20, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-20, 02:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-20, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
I'd buy that if this was Haley we were talking about, or Belkar, or Vaarsuvius. Maybe Elan. Deception is fundamentally not part of Durkon's character, to the point where the one time he's lied in the entire strip it only worked because the person asking him knew he doesn't lie. He was also speaking literal truth. If Durkon didn't accept Roy's argument, he'd tell Roy so. If he was going to do it over Roy's objections, he'd announce the fact.
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2020-04-20, 03:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Prediction: the fallout from this decision is going to be what kills Belkar. That's why he was mentioned here.
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2020-04-20, 04:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
No, look again especially at panel 7. Roy and Durkon fully intend to contact Redcloak "at some point anyway." They have different opinions on exactly when to do do so. Roy has decided that it shall happen later, rather than right now. Durkon can follow his leader's decision without disobeying Thor..
-.____________________
./___________________()-------Ron Miel
|...___________________--------sits down
|..| |_________________()-------and starts
|..|/__________________--------singing
| ___________________()-------about gold
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2020-04-20, 04:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-20, 05:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
My original understanding was that The Dark One was saying not to screw Gobbotopia up by focusing on the Plan but I swear I remember The Giant saying the intended take-away was that Redcloak wasn't off the hook regarding the Plan and that making Gobbotopia was no reason not to push on but I can't find the quote.
This would indicate that while The dark One is pleased by Gobbotopia's existence, in hius mind The Plan is more important which is why Jirix decided to leave that part out of his big speech.Forum Wisdom
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2020-04-20, 05:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Curious. Roy's logic seems completely sound, yet his dismissal of Durkon has the definite feel of a character making a mistake. He actually cuts Durkon off mid-sentence and turns away from him, which at this point is like a flashing neon sign reading "danger!"
I think you've put your finger on it. It's not that Durkon's plan was guaranteed to work or that Roy's objections were invalid. It's that his whole attitude toward the Redcloak situation is radically different from Roy's, and focused on the idea of forthright communication up front. Roy appears rather off-put by the intrusion of yet another god-based subplot into the storyline, and because he doesn't want to be bossed around by the gods or let their priorities distract from his own, he's reluctant to modify his approach to accommodate Durkon's new mission -- except to add "and then some talking happens" after they've finished, er, "beating him into submission".
Redcloak could easily turn into the kind of opponent you wish you'd tried diplomatic channels with after it's become too late. I've had the idea for a while he might become a kind of "be careful what you wish for" cautionary tale for Roy, who so often complains that the villains don't remember him. Redcloak has never actually forgotten. Meanwhile Roy's completely in the dark about Redcloak, and if he thinks that's actually a problem at all it's one he's not going to get to until they've already defeated him and/or Xykon.
The commentary in Blood Runs in the Family is explicit about the Dark One meaning the Plan. The main point of showing the Dark One was to affirm that the founding of Gobbotopia didn't get Redcloak "off the hook" for capturing a Gate on his god's behalf.
I can't quote it wholly from memory yet, but it's not hard for me to find the exact quote just by going through my old posts at this point.
Originally Posted by Blood Runs in the Family
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2020-04-20, 05:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread
Well, “not off the hook” sounds right, but I do presume he was quite pleased. That I don’t blame TDO for.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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