OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread

[B. Dandelion]

It's interesting to me that it might matter to Redcloak whether he'd been "let off the hook". A lot has gone into establishing Redcloak's sunk costs and reluctance to turn away from the Plan, lest he be forced to own up to his mistakes. Even after everything, it seems that Gobbotopia was a real temptation for him to let go.

It worries me to think about though, since I always wind up convincing myself that something terrible is more or less guaranteed to happen to the city. The more it means to Redcloak, the worse the outlook.

[Fyraltari]

It's interesting to me that it might matter to Redcloak whether he'd been "let off the hook". A lot has gone into establishing Redcloak's sunk costs and reluctance to turn away from the Plan, lest he be forced to own up to his mistakes. Even after everything, it seems that Gobbotopia was a real temptation for him to let go.

It worries me to think about though, since I always wind up convincing myself that something terrible is more or less guaranteed to happen to the city. The more it means to Redcloak, the worse the outlook.

I'm not worried about Gobbotopia. Between Jirix styling himself as a "peacetime leader" and ridding himself of the remnants of team Evil (the demon-roaches), the Azurite having gained a sweet new homeland and the general "us vs them is wrong" theme of the comic, I think Gobbotopia will last as an independent nation and a goblin haven.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not worried about Gobbotopia. Between Jirix styling himself as a "peacetime leader" and ridding himself of the remnants of team Evil (the demon-roaches), the Azurite having gained a sweet new homeland and the general "us vs them is wrong" theme of the comic, I think Gobbotopia will last as an independent nation and a goblin haven.

Are you sure? I get that "us vs them" is wrong, and I recall Darth Vaarsuvius teleporting the fleet to a place where they can found a new settlement, but wouldn't the Azurites still want to reclaim their homes? At the same time, though, I don't want the goblins to get kicked out, either. They do still deserve a break, and while there are a bunch of problems left (main deity is TDO, slavery, etc.), a small smithy's worth of anvils have been dropped that treating 'monstrous' races as universally Evil is bad.

[Necris Omega]

Actually, the direct message Redcloak got from TDO via the resurrected Jirix was "Don't screw this up." Could easily have been referring to Gobbotopia, not the Plan.

I didn't consider that. But when I say that, I mean, that whole exchange entirely. Gobbotopia or no, the whole, "dupe the archlich" plan I'm 99%+ certain came from on high - that is the mission. Even if it's nice for Redcloak to have given his people a city, the Dark One still wants a better seat at the table of the gods. Don't know what he really wants, but based on how the other deities are ordered, I'm thinking a Pantheon. Goblin Gods.

Gob Gods if you will.

One city won't get you that.

[danielxcutter]

I didn't consider that. But when I say that, I mean, that whole exchange entirely. Gobbotopia or no, the whole, "dupe the archlich" plan I'm 99%+ certain came from on high - that is the mission. Even if it's nice for Redcloak to have given his people a city, the Dark One still wants a better seat at the table of the gods. Don't know what he really wants, but based on how the other deities are ordered, I'm thinking a Pantheon. Goblin Gods.

Gob Gods if you will.

One city won't get you that.

The various pro-goblinoid ninjas have already explained that commentary in Blood Runs In the Family explicitly states that TDO was referring to the Plan.

[Fyraltari]

Are you sure? I get that "us vs them" is wrong, and I recall Darth Vaarsuvius teleporting the fleet to a place where they can found a new settlement, but wouldn't the Azurites still want to reclaim their homes? At the same time, though, I don't want the goblins to get kicked out, either. They do still deserve a break, and while there are a bunch of problems left (main deity is TDO, slavery, etc.), a small smithy's worth of anvils have been dropped that treating 'monstrous' races as universally Evil is bad.

Well, they still want to reclaim Azure City but from what we saw in Good Deeds gone unpunished, they are doing pretty well, they all have roofs over their heads, plenty of food and materials a sweet new castle to fend off possible invaders etc. They don't actually need Azure City itself except for nostalgia.

[danielxcutter]

Well, they still want to reclaim Azure City but from what we saw in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, they are doing pretty well, they all have roofs over their heads, plenty of food and materials a sweet new castle to fend off possible invaders etc. They don't actually need Azure City itself except for nostalgia.

Logically speaking, yes. Emotionally speaking... less so. They invaded Azure City, drove countless humans out while killing or enslaving the rest... Even ignoring power plays and stuff, plenty of Azurites from all across the social totem pole (or at least what's left of it) probably want to get even. And I don't blame them for that either.

[Fyraltari]

Logically speaking, yes. Emotionally speaking... less so. They invaded Azure City, drove countless humans out while killing or enslaving the rest... Even ignoring power plays and stuff, plenty of Azurites from all across the social totem pole (or at least what's left of it) probably want to get even. And I don't blame them for that either.

Yes? I didn't dispute the fact that they want to get even, simply that I doubt it's in the cards (with the exception of liberating the slaves). And a peace treaty with Gobbotopia is probably going to be a part of their happy ending.

One can consider their expulsion from Azure City their "just deserts" for turning a blind eye to the exactions of the Sapphire Guard all these years.

[danielxcutter]

Yes? I didn't dispute the fact that they want to get even, simply that I doubt it's in the cards (with the exception of liberating the slaves). And a peace treaty with Gobbotopia is probably going to be a part of their happy ending.

One can consider their expulsion from Azure City their "just deserts" for turning a blind eye to the exactions of the Sapphire Guard all these years.

I don't. I mean, I think a peace treaty of some sort would probably be the best realistic scenario too, but I don't agree with the "just desserts" thing, really. I guess war is inherently cruel and unfair, though.

[Fyraltari]

I don't. I mean, I think a peace treaty of some sort would probably be the best realistic scenario too, but I don't agree with the "just desserts" thing, really. I guess war is inherently cruel and unfair, though.

I mean yeah, obviously the vast majority of the population had no way of knowing, much less intervening about the SG’s actions.

But things going back as to what they were before is generally a pipe dream.
And that raises the question of how much the population at large is to be held responsible for the crimes of its leader.

[danielxcutter]

I mean yeah, obviously the vast majority of the population had no way of knowing, much less intervening about the SG’s actions.

But things going back as to what they were before is generally a pipe dream.
And that raises the question of how much the population at large is to be held responsible for the crimes of its leader.

I don't think those things are mutually exclusive statements. I certainly don't think that "going back as to what they were before" is any more plausible than Elan taking levels as a Cleric of Banjo - and saying it on-panel without a dramatic reveal.

But I think it is a question worth raising how much responsibility lies on the people. Both for the Azurites, and the goblins.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Thor told me, his priest,
your god dies of dearth
if the Snarl's released.

Your reticence quell:
save him and earth
by casting one spell.

Dang, I don't think anybody's going to improve on this one. Good work, Rollin.

Although, I'm not sure if "Snarl's" counts as one word or two for the purposes of sending, since it's a contraction. If it counts as two, then that's technically 26 words.

[The MunchKING]

Dang, I don't think anybody's going to improve on this one. Good work, Rollin.

Although, I'm not sure if "Snarl's" counts as one word or two for the purposes of sending, since it's a contraction. If it counts as two, then that's technically 26 words.

Julia and Nale got away with using contractions with Sending.

[KorvinStarmast]

Are you sure? I get that "us vs them" is wrong, and I recall Darth Vaarsuvius teleporting the fleet to a place where they can found a new settlement, but wouldn't the Azurites still want to reclaim their homes?

There is some indication that, based on GDGU

Spoiler: GDGU material

Show

Hinjo will first re establish Azurite homeland in their new digs on the Western Continent

[understatement]

They're not going to let Gobbotopia fall, not when there's this cute little kid right here!

Although...what happens if Redcloak doesn't listen to his God? Wants to preserve Gobbotopia instead of risking it? Would the OOTS try to convince him of that then? ("if you don't work with us your city is doomed")

I cannot WAIT to see Roy and Redcloak meet. The super-serious snarking would be amazing...

[danielxcutter]

They're not going to let Gobbotopia fall, not when there's this cute little kid right here!

Although...what happens if Redcloak doesn't listen to his God? Wants to preserve Gobbotopia instead of risking it? Would the OOTS try to convince him of that then? ("if you don't work with us your city is doomed")

I cannot WAIT to see Roy and Redcloak meet. The super-serious snarking would be amazing...

Bye bye cleric spells.

[understatement]

Bye bye cleric spells.

Bye bye ritual then.

[CriticalFailure]

I cannot WAIT to see Roy and Redcloak meet. The super-serious snarking would be amazing...

I'm glad someone else is as excited about this eventuality as I am.

Given that Redcloak is fairly likely to be the only cleric of TDO who is high enough level to cast the ritual and almost certainly the only one high enough level to deal with whatever might come out of cooperation between the gods on the issue, so there's also a possibility that TDO ends up in a place where he needs to get Redcloak onboard or something.

[johnbragg]

Are you sure? I get that "us vs them" is wrong, and I recall Darth Vaarsuvius teleporting the fleet to a place where they can found a new settlement, but wouldn't the Azurites still want to reclaim their homes? At the same time, though, I don't want the goblins to get kicked out, either. They do still deserve a break, and while there are a bunch of problems left (main deity is TDO, slavery, etc.), a small smithy's worth of anvils have been dropped that treating 'monstrous' races as universally Evil is bad.

Logically speaking, yes. Emotionally speaking... less so. They invaded Azure City, drove countless humans out while killing or enslaving the rest... Even ignoring power plays and stuff, plenty of Azurites from all across the social totem pole (or at least what's left of it) probably want to get even. And I don't blame them for that either.

I don't. I mean, I think a peace treaty of some sort would probably be the best realistic scenario too, but I don't agree with the "just desserts" thing, really. I guess war is inherently cruel and unfair, though.

Gobbotopia is a long sea voyage away from New Azure City (is that the name), and if the Azurites weren't able to defend it against the goblin hordes, I don't like their odds of retaking it from goblinoid defenders in an entrenched position, even if you Epic Teleported the entire Azurite army back, in full gear and formation outside the city.

That's if they launch a serious attempt. Azurite society is probably not as feudalistic and aristocratic-intrigue-y as it was before, but it's still fairly intrigue-y. Let's say Hinjo wants to reconquer the homeland. Either Hinjo leads the invading army--leaving him vulnerable to a coup by the nobility in New Azure City; or Hinjo appoints a general to command the invading armies--who will, on the day of the reconquest, be the military governor of the city, which is a much more powerful position than "leader of the distant government". Even if pure Hinjo is willing to take these risks, I doubt his noble supporters in the oligarchy will be as trusting of their fellow aristocrats.

Sure, the Azurites hate the Gobbotopians on a personal level now, rather than just being casually racist about them in a disinterested way. But that doesn't override everything else. No peace treaty, but no full-mobilization-for-war-of-reconquest either. Gobbotopia and New Azure City are just another pair of hostile polities in a Stickverse that abounds in them.

Gobbotopia will probably open trade and diplomatic relations with most of the cities and kingdoms etc. There will be mutual trading partners of the Azurites and Gobbotopians whose diplomats and protocol officers will be busy making sure that the New Azurite ambassador and the Gobbotopian ambassador are kept apart from each other at the fancy balls and functions, etc. But that's nothing new really.

[Peelee]

Bye bye ritual then.

.... Wouldn't that already be the case, in the hypothetical? Redcloak won't be able to do something he already wouldn't be doing?

New Azure City (is that the name)

I believe you mean New Blue.

[hroþila]

.... Wouldn't that already be the case, in the hypothetical? Redcloak won't be able to do something he already wouldn't be doing?

I think that was meant from the point of view of the Dark One. He either sticks with Redcloak, even if he has to give him concessions, or he can kiss his ritual goodbye because presumably there'd be no replacement cleric available. So if Redcloak says "I'll only do the ritual if you allow me to first ensure that Gobbotopia survives", the Dark One might be forced to agree.

Although this is assuming that Jirix wouldn't be a suitable replacement, which is not a sure thing.

[Petrocorus]

Prediction: the fallout from this decision is going to be what kills Belkar. That's why he was mentioned here.

That's actually a hypothesis that i like. So Durkon or Roy is going to be the cause of Belkar's demise.

Deception is fundamentally not part of Durkon's character, to the point where the one time he's lied in the entire strip it only worked because the person asking him knew he doesn't lie.

Could you remind me when it was?

but wouldn't the Azurites still want to reclaim their homes?

To had some additional GDGU spoilers to what as already been said. There is another nation in the southern continent who could be willing to attack Gobbotopia to conquer it. The Azurite were wary of it.

If TDO is recognise as the fourth Pantheon, he (and potentially other Gob Gods) will have to abide by God's rules of no direct intervention, which mean he won't be able to directly help Gobbotopia, just as the Southern Gods cannot help the Azurites or the other southern nations except by providing spells to Clerics and Paladins.

[Rogar Demonblud]

All that need to happen is for some goblinoid cleric to shank Redcloak and put on the Crimson Mantle, becoming the new Redcloak. The Bearer of the Crimson Mantle automatically knows the ritual.

[hamishspence]

All that need to happen is for some goblinoid cleric to shank Redcloak and put on the Crimson Mantle, becoming the new Redcloak. The Bearer of the Crimson Mantle automatically knows the ritual.

But they won't be 17th level and able to contribute that spell slot, probably.

Could you remind me when it was?

Here

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html

[hroþila]

But they won't be 17th level and able to contribute that spell slot, probably.

That would be a problem for Thor's ritual, but we don't know that the Dark One's has the same requirement. Redcloak was ready to do the ritual years before he hit 17th level.

[hamishspence]

I believe Redcloak specifically said each caster, divine and arcane, need to be high level. How high we don't know - but it's plausible that Redcloak's one of the very few goblin clerics that happen to be high level enough.

[understatement]

I'm glad someone else is as excited about this eventuality as I am.

I'm fine with RC meeting any of the Order, but him and Roy have the "I can't believe my team is this crazy" mentality that is an absolute joy to read. So yeah, definitely one of the things I am extremely looking forward to.

Given that Redcloak is fairly likely to be the only cleric of TDO who is high enough level to cast the ritual and almost certainly the only one high enough level to deal with whatever might come out of cooperation between the gods on the issue, so there's also a possibility that TDO ends up in a place where he needs to get Redcloak onboard or something.

I think that was meant from the point of view of the Dark One. He either sticks with Redcloak, even if he has to give him concessions, or he can kiss his ritual goodbye because presumably there'd be no replacement cleric available. So if Redcloak says "I'll only do the ritual if you allow me to first ensure that Gobbotopia survives", the Dark One might be forced to agree. Although this is assuming that Jirix wouldn't be a suitable replacement, which is not a sure thing.

My thoughts, yeah. Especially with Thor's whole speech that clerics are essential to a god and v.v.
More to the point, you need a cleric that is both loyal (which RC currently is, although it might change later) and powerful enough not to be one-shotted by Kraagor Gate's defenses, which Jirix considerably lacks in the latter.

[CriticalFailure]

I'm fine with RC meeting any of the Order, but him and Roy have the "I can't believe my team is this crazy" mentality that is an absolute joy to read. So yeah, definitely one of the things I am extremely looking forward to.





My thoughts, yeah. Especially with Thor's whole speech that clerics are essential to a god and v.v.
More to the point, you need a cleric that is both loyal (which RC currently is, although it might change later) and powerful enough not to be one-shotted by Kraagor Gate's defenses, which Jirix considerably lacks in the latter.

I am also in agreement on the "Redcloak and TDO may end up negotiating with each other at some point" line of thinking. Maybe.

I think that Roy and Redcloak would end up secretly relating to each other on that but be absolutely loathe to admit it. I can imagining them making similar sarcastic comments and then being annoyed to have anything in common. I also think Redcloak and V talking to each other would be really interesting. They both have guilty consciences and are deeply unhappy because of their own poor life choices. Anyways, I hope Redcloak does end up working with the Order or at least gets captured by them or something just so we can see some conversations between him and the Order.

[understatement]

I am also in agreement on the "Redcloak and TDO may end up negotiating with each other at some point" line of thinking. Maybe.

I think that Roy and Redcloak would end up secretly relating to each other on that but be absolutely loathe to admit it. I can imagining them making similar sarcastic comments and then being annoyed to have anything in common. I also think Redcloak and V talking to each other would be really interesting. They both have guilty consciences and are deeply unhappy because of their own poor life choices. Anyways, I hope Redcloak does end up working with the Order or at least gets captured by them or something just so we can see some conversations between him and the Order.

Heck

yeah.

"Did we both just come up with the same battle plan?" -_-

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, “not off the hook” sounds right, but I do presume he was quite pleased. That I don’t blame TDO for.

"Awesome, I love the city! But don't forget the other stuff, Gobbotopia's not worth a snowball in Hell if the Plan fails."

Are you sure? I get that "us vs them" is wrong, and I recall Darth Vaarsuvius teleporting the fleet to a place where they can found a new settlement, but wouldn't the Azurites still want to reclaim their homes? At the same time, though, I don't want the goblins to get kicked out, either. They do still deserve a break, and while there are a bunch of problems left (main deity is TDO, slavery, etc.), a small smithy's worth of anvils have been dropped that treating 'monstrous' races as universally Evil is bad.

You're not wrong; a lot of Azurites will want to reclaim Azure City, no matter what the costs or benefits would be. At the same time, will that matter before the epilogue concludes, or will that tension only come up in Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier?

But I think it is a question worth raising how much responsibility lies on the people. Both for the Azurites, and the goblins.

It's also a question worth raising if those people really want all the hardship and struggle of another war, or if they'd be happier just letting things lie and trying to use the ashes of the old world as fertilizer for the new.

That's actually a hypothesis that i like. So Durkon or Roy is going to be the cause of Belkar's demise.

So is the geological composition of the northern lands. In-jokes aside, this is a pretty vague prediction; it'll be hard for this decision to not have some kind of influence on Belkar's death. greenfunkman should get a job writing horoscopes.

Will Redcloak end up betraying The Dark One's plan?

If the two end up at odds, it's not going to be because Redcloak drops the Plan; the point has been raised time and time again that he's irrationally committed to not just the Plan, but the version of the Plan with Xykon, because he doesn't want to accept that all the goblins Xykon killed/let die from apathy/etc died for nothing.
If the two end up at odds, it's going to be Redcloak who wants to stick to the Plan and The Dark One who wants to change course. Maybe TDO will give his high priest a pep talk about how those goblins didn't die for nothing. Maybe he'll give a pep talk on another subject. Maybe there'll be something else, maybe this won't be a conflict at all. But Redcloak won't abandon the Plan before TDO.