OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread

[Rollin]

Dang, I don't think anybody's going to improve on this one. Good work, Rollin.

Although, I'm not sure if "Snarl's" counts as one word or two for the purposes of sending, since it's a contraction. If it counts as two, then that's technically 26 words.

Thanks! I figured a two-word contraction would fly, since there's a three-word one ("Resurrection(s)") in comic 603.

And a good thing too, bearing in mind that the Sent version, after Minrah's punching-up, would probably have gone something like this:

Thor told me, 'is priest,
yer god dies o' dearth
if'n tha Snarl's releas'd.

Git o'er yersel':
save 'im an' earth
by castin' one spell.

(Minrah doesn't use the dwarven dialect herself, but I'm sure she's capable of composing in it to some degree.)

[B. Dandelion]

When I worry about something bad happening to Gobbotopia, it generally isn't "the Azurites come back across the ocean looking for revenge". There's a way scarier threat that's also a lot closer. As in, literally right on top of them.

I don't want to see the city get devoured by the Snarl, but it would make a cruel narrative sense for that to be the consequences of continuing to pursue the Plan.

[CriticalFailure]

When I worry about something bad happening to Gobbotopia, it generally isn't "the Azurites come back across the ocean looking for revenge". There's a way scarier threat that's also a lot closer. As in, literally right on top of them.

I don't want to see the city get devoured by the Snarl, but it would make a cruel narrative sense for that to be the consequences of continuing to pursue the Plan.

Yeah if something happens to Gobbotopia I think this is the most likely thing. The rift is right there and Redcloak chose to pursue the Gates thus causing it. The other possibility I could see is Xykon raining down destruction purely to spite Redcloak.

[Quizatzhaderac]

He could easily run away, but he probably wouldn't do so immediately. His first spells would probably be meteor swarm or energy drain, then superb dispelling when that doesnt work. That'd give the order several rounds to wail on him before he'd think to run.

If he gets ambushed he might open with superb dispelling. I mean, what are the chances that a mid/high level party's preparations for a climatic battle don't include significant buffs?

Well, they still want to reclaim Azure City but from what we saw in Good Deeds gone unpunished, they are doing pretty well, they all have roofs over their heads, plenty of food and materials a sweet new castle to fend off possible invaders etc. They don't actually need Azure City itself except for nostalgia.

Presumably the vast majority of Azurites weren't in the fleet. Even a busy port city doesn't have remotely enough ships for the entire city. And logically, there should also be several times the population of the city in the countryside.

[Schroeswald]

Presumably the vast majority of Azurites weren't in the fleet. Even a busy port city doesn't have remotely enough ships for the entire city. And logically, there should also be several times the population of the city in the countryside.

Yes, there were many, many people not in the fleet, but they are all now dead or enslaved in Gobbotopia, every current free Azurite is either there, or O-Chul, Lien or Nyu.

Also, while I'm not sure about this, I think there is a possibility that the Azurites and goblins will find a home in the remnants of Azure City, peacefuly coexisting in, I dunno Aqua Town.

[danielxcutter]

Yes, there were many, many people not in the fleet, but they are all now dead or enslaved in Gobbotopia, every current free Azurite is either there, or O-Chul, Lien or Nyu.

Also, while I'm not sure about this, I think there is a possibility that the Azurites and goblins will find a home in the remnants of Azure City, peacefuly coexisting in, I dunno Aqua Town.

If such a thing happens - fingers crossed! - I think the very obvious threat of the Snarl poking its tentacles out of the rift would probably help. I mean, dying is one thing, but having their souls eaten is another, and I have a feeling there will be plenty of civilian goblinoids who fall victim as well as soldiers. Hinjo and Jirix both care for their respective people, and Hinjo is also a paladin - even ignoring the "spare the innocent" part and so on, it threatens the entire multiverse.

[Rogar Demonblud]

For other threats to Gobbotopia, don't forget the neighboring (and expansionistic) Realm of the Dragon.

[Grey Watcher]

For other threats to Gobbotopia, don't forget the neighboring (and expansionistic) Realm of the Dragon.

Maybe. They were expansionist as of when How the Paladin Got His Scar occurred, but we don't know if that policy has continued since. It's very possible, for example, that a change in leadership also meant a change in policy. Empress Dragonfan VIII was bent on conquest. Her son, Dragonfan IX, is much more interested in keeping his holdings intact and generally being isolationist.

[hamishspence]

The current "White Emperor" is a white dragon. Which may imply that the previous "Red Emperor" was a red dragon.

[danielxcutter]

Is this something major or just noteworthy? I don’t have the book.

[goodpeople25]

Yes, there were many, many people not in the fleet, but they are all now dead or enslaved in Gobbotopia, every current free Azurite is either there, or O-Chul, Lien or Nyu.

Also, while I'm not sure about this, I think there is a possibility that the Azurites and goblins will find a home in the remnants of Azure City, peacefuly coexisting in, I dunno Aqua Town.

Um what? What makes you think that because frankly it seems ludicrous that every single Azurite was not only in the area of Azure City (And we know at least 1 wasn't) but that they were also captured or killed. Also are the dropped off refugees also dead or enslaved?

[danielxcutter]

Um what? What makes you think that because frankly it seems ludicrous that every single Azurite was not only in the area of Azure City (And we know at least 1 wasn't) but that they were also captured or killed. Also are the dropped off refugees also dead or enslaved?

Does it have to be “every single” Azurite? How many free left, compared to all those who didn’t go with the fleet and either died or were enslaved? And the refugees? You mean the people the Resistance saved? Likely all killed with them by Redcloak’s summoned creatures.

[Petrocorus]

The current "White Emperor" is a white dragon. Which may imply that the previous "Red Emperor" was a red dragon.

Where do we see this?

Is this something major or just noteworthy? I don’t have the book.

In GDGU, Hinjo seems pretty worried about the Dragon attacking them and he mention that a significant part of Azurite military is guarding this frontier. But he notes that some of the Azurite nobility rather actually want it.

[B. Dandelion]

Where do we see this?

It's a bizarre but hilarious single strip in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales. The advisors want to ask the Emperor how to govern the kingdom, but the dragon just wants fish and keeps killing the people pestering him without feeding him. Then the advisors try to discern some kind of meaning from the violence. "He used his frost breath... he is saying our current taxation policies are freezing economic growth."

[Schroeswald]

Um what? What makes you think that because frankly it seems ludicrous that every single Azurite was not only in the area of Azure City (And we know at least 1 wasn't) but that they were also captured or killed. Also are the dropped off refugees also dead or enslaved?

Okay, you're partially right, I overstated my point, those 3 are not the only living free Azurites outside of New Azureville, but I highly doubt there is a significant amount outside of it, considering those in the areas outside of Azure City have not been mentioned in-comic and presumably Gobbotopia would care about it if there were (and also I'd guess the hobbos marched through several small towns andterritories that were destroyed). And I can say that functionally everyone not on those boats in the vicinity is dead or enslaved (though enslaved is probably more likely for those outside the military), because we've seen how small the Azurite Resistances were, all the dead bodies of every free Azurite was shown off by Redcloak, and these included freed slaves and were very few. Also, I didn't remember the refugees they dropped off in allied places, but I imagine that they are now either in the same boat as the citizens of New Azureville, or were actually brought over there.

[hroþila]

Remember that Azure City had a population of about ~265,000, with roughly an equal number of citizens living elsewhere. It's impossible to know how many of the latter became refugees, how many were eventually enslaved by the hobgoblins as they seized control of the hinterland, and how many were killed. Some of them might have joined the refugees from the capital city itself, but I doubt many did. It is also possible that other Azurite towns and cities weren't conquered at all.

[Schroeswald]

Remember that Azure City had a population of about ~265,000, with roughly an equal number of citizens living elsewhere. It's impossible to know how many of the latter became refugees, how many were eventually enslaved by the hobgoblins as they seized control of the hinterland, and how many were killed. Some of them might have joined the refugees from the capital city itself, but I doubt many did. It is also possible that other Azurite towns and cities weren't conquered at all.

I do agree with that mostly, though I will say that the fact that the Azurites have gone over the whole Southern continent implies that at least any places sailable are either conquered and far too small to provide home for many.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Yes, there were many, many people not in the fleet, but they are all now dead or enslaved in Gobbotopia, ....

Emphasis mine.

The enslaved people are the main reason why the free Azurities would want to retake the city.

You can't help the dead*, and the residents of New Blue seem to be doing okay, but the oppressed are suffering and can be saved.

*Yes, in the setting you actually can help the dead, but it's logistically impossible to help the vast majority of the dead.

[TheNecrocomicon]

If such a thing happens - fingers crossed! - I think the very obvious threat of the Snarl poking its tentacles out of the rift would probably help. I mean, dying is one thing, but having their souls eaten is another, and I have a feeling there will be plenty of civilian goblinoids who fall victim as well as soldiers. Hinjo and Jirix both care for their respective people, and Hinjo is also a paladin - even ignoring the "spare the innocent" part and so on, it threatens the entire multiverse.

You know, such a line of thought makes me think that, astronomically a long shot as this is, the Azurites and Gobbotopians might actually team up, even if only temporarily, in the face of the existential threat of the Snarl.

That would be a fantastic place for the story to go, not least because it would be highly entertaining to watch Redcloak's absolute meltdown if he returns and finds out what his compatriots have done in his absence -- that they could get over their hate and bigotry for the good of all, when he could not.

[Peelee]

Emphasis mine.

The enslaved people are the main reason why the free Azurities would want to retake the city.

The problem there is that the goblins who took the city outnumbered the Azurite army three to one, and emerged victorious. And that was at the height of the Azurite's power.

Even if the refugees were entirely comprised of soldiers, they would have nowhere near the strength to be able to wage a campaign capable of retaking the city for whatever reason.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, you have to remember that a significant chunk of the Azurite military is controlled by the nobles, who sailed off and left everyone else to suffer.

Hey, there's the basis of a trade. Exchange those nobles and their retinues for the slaves. Number wise, Gobbotopia may come out ahead.

[hroþila]

The problem there is that the goblins who took the city outnumbered the Azurite army three to one, and emerged victorious. And that was at the height of the Azurite's power.

Even if the refugees were entirely comprised of soldiers, they would have nowhere near the strength to be able to wage a campaign capable of retaking the city for whatever reason.

I don't think that was necessarily the height of the Azurite's power. We were told they could muster around 9,000-10,000 soldiers counting the garrisoned troops and those close enough to recall in time, but we don't know how many soldiers were deployed elsewhere, garrisoning other cities and forts but too far away to make it to Azure City in time. And that ~10,000 figure was before many nobles left with their retinues and household troops. The Azurite military was not (could not be) fully mobilized.

This is just nitpicking, though. Even an optimistic calculation (assuming that Azure City held 50% of the nation's troops, as it held 50% of the population) would make the fall of the capital and the death of most of its troops a devastating blow. Furthermore, we know Blueriver Fort was the second most important settlement in military terms, and that was wiped out too. Even assuming the garrisons further south (for example, at Robinsegg) managed to survive and assuming they either joined the fleet or would be able to join an hypothetical reconquest expedition, I doubt we're talking of more than about 3,000-5,000 soldiers, tops, and that's in a best-case scenario, combining all disjointed Azurite forces. Although it must be conceded that the Azurites are raising new troops from the refugees, and it's hard to put a number to them because we have no idea how many refugees the fleet took.

However, we should remember that the Azurites had allies who were unwilling to help out because of Xykon. If Xykon is out of the picture, the threat to Gobbotopia could be very real, especially if the elves decide they'd rather have the Azurites back in that spot rather than Cliffport's trade partners.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I agree that they can't take back the city without help. I was just arguing with Fyraltari about the desire to return being mere sentimentalism.

[Fyraltari]

I agree that they can't take back the city without help. I was just arguing with Fyraltari about the desire to return being mere sentimentalism.

Slave liberation and reconsider of former territory are two different things, the latter is not necessary for the former. They don’t [b]need[/i] to retake the City for that to happen, it would probably be a condition of the peace treaty.

[Jasdoif]

Well, you have to remember that a significant chunk of the Azurite military is controlled by the nobles, who sailed off and left everyone else to suffer.

And that ~10,000 figure was before many nobles left with their retinues and household troops.

Since this has come up....

The nobles of Azure City have small personal defense forces. Each noble has maybe 20 samurai and 100 men-at-arms, at most, plus some casters and maybe ninjas if they lean that way. They use them for self-defense and messing with other nobles. There may be a few dozen nobles total.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, say, an average of 125 troops of one form or another. Call it 32 noble families for ease of math and you have another 4000 troops, most of them experienced rather than recruits. Would've been nice to have almost half your force on the walls instead of sailing away.

[Peelee]

So, say, an average of 125 troops of one form or another. Call it 32 noble families for ease of math and you have another 4000 troops

You're assuming the maximum number for all noble families. Most weren't powerful or rich enough anywhere near to have that many, I'd wager.

[hroþila]

Yeah, I'd rather use an average of ~60 retainers. But even using the lowest figure of 24 noble houses, that's still 1,440 soldiers, which is a significant chunk of a 9,000-strong force. Especially in terms of quality.

There might not be much of a reason to use the average of 60 retainers, though. The hobgoblins estimated 10,000 Azurites killed in the battle and the explosion, while the Azurites claimed to have some 9,000 troops available, including noble retinues. The hobgoblins must have overestimated the number of defenders (that's normal in war), but the closer the real figure was to 10,000, the better this works. Perhaps something like 9,000 initial troops, including 1,000 retainers who didn't fight in the battle, for an effective total of 8,000 Azurite soldiers actually present at the battle?

[Peelee]

the Azurites claimed to have some 9,000 troops available, including noble retinues.

Did they? The general calls them soldiers while the daimyos call them men-at-arms. I wouldn't be surprised if they were different classifications, and were expected to participate but not counted as Azurite military proper, and not included in the 9000 count.

If that's incorrect and they were in the 9000 count, the general also calls them largely unfamiliar with battle, and the daimyos evacuated their men without participating in the war, so I would hesitate to call them "experienced" as Rogar Demonblud proposed.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, I'd rather use an average of ~60 retainers. But even using the lowest figure of 24 noble houses, that's still 1,440 soldiers, which is a significant chunk of a 9,000-strong force. Especially in terms of quality.

There might not be much of a reason to use the average of 60 retainers, though. The hobgoblins estimated 10,000 Azurites killed in the battle and the explosion, while the Azurites claimed to have some 9,000 troops available, including noble retinues. The hobgoblins must have overestimated the number of defenders (that's normal in war), but the closer the real figure was to 10,000, the better this works. Perhaps something like 9,000 initial troops, including 1,000 retainers who didn't fight in the battle, for an effective total of 8,000 Azurite soldiers actually present at the battle?

I always thought the 9,000 soldiers the general was talking about were soldiers in Azure City's regular army. Which would explain why it didn't seem to encompass the 314 clerics or 100-ish paladins of the Southern Gods mentioned in that same strip...and by extension, wouldn't count the personal defense forces of the nobles (or adventurers like the Order of the Stick).