OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread

[hroþila]

Oooh, good catch, I had missed that. Then we're back to 9,000 initial troops. Losing at least 1,000 retainers out of a total potential force of at least 10,000 would still be significant, though.

[danielxcutter]

Either way, that is a non-insignificant part that while maybe not enough to turn the tide, sure would have helped a lot.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's not just about numbers. Knowing a significant portion of your forces skipped town didn't do morale any favors.

[factotum]

It's not just about numbers. Knowing a significant portion of your forces skipped town didn't do morale any favors.

We didn't observe any morale issues until the guys at the breach saw basically the entire remaining goblin army coming in for them, and at that point it was pretty obvious the battle was lost there--I think they would have run regardless of who'd joined them. Also, would the front line troops necessarily know that a bunch of nobles and their troops weren't around? Seems to me that information would be a bit above their pay grade.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, would the front line troops necessarily know that a bunch of nobles and their troops weren't around? Seems to me that information would be a bit above their pay grade.

They have eyes and they can see. (Or, in this case Not See the banners of the various nobles flying as they lead their household troops into battle).

[Rogar Demonblud]

You might want to compare the humans and the hobgoblins in 422.

[Jasdoif]

When I worry about something bad happening to Gobbotopia, it generally isn't "the Azurites come back across the ocean looking for revenge". There's a way scarier threat that's also a lot closer. As in, literally right on top of them.

I don't want to see the city get devoured by the Snarl, but it would make a cruel narrative sense for that to be the consequences of continuing to pursue the Plan.

Well into "off the deep end of hypotheticals" territory....I've only come up with one way that seems at all plausible for the Azurites to get back Azure City: The Azurites and the Gobbotopians coming together to form one nation, as a condition for Redcloak agreeing to participate in the rift-sealing endeavor to keep the world from being unmade....Which is really far out there.

Especially since the critical component of that scenario (what the Azurites could offer for Redcloak/Jirix/etc. to even entertain the notion) ultimately comes from one sentence in book bonus material:

Spoiler: War and XPs Bonus Content

Show

The Stick Planet Travel Guide says that the Azurites produced a surplus of food...which is pretty impressive since the half of the nation's population living inside Azure City itself is naturally not going to be directly involved with farming.

Redcloak's expecting Gobbotopia to rely on trade to feed itself, so clearly there's more to the vibrant agriculture than tools that the hobgoblins could operate themselves...And I'm sure they value self-sufficiency at a premium.

There's a lot of holes there, key among them whether Redcloak still thinks a "level playing field" is all goblinkind needs (and whether the Dark One ever did); to say nothing of the difficulty involved in implementing such an undertaking....But if the question is "How could the story as known thus far potentially allow the Azurites to return to Azure City, rather than merely reclaim the land where Azure City stood before they or the Snarl annihilated what was left of it"; this is what I have o_o

[GreatWyrmGold]

We didn't observe any morale issues until the guys at the breach saw basically the entire remaining goblin army coming in for them, and at that point it was pretty obvious the battle was lost there--I think they would have run regardless of who'd joined them. Also, would the front line troops necessarily know that a bunch of nobles and their troops weren't around? Seems to me that information would be a bit above their pay grade.

I think you're missing the point. They're not looking for relevant, concrete bits of evidence and trying to build a theory out of them; they have their theory and are looking for arguments that can be used to support them. Hence the emphasizing of things that theoretically could matter but have never (or at least barely) been mentioned in either the comic or the published books (like the fate of Azurites outside the city proper).

[hroþila]

I think you're missing the point. They're not looking for relevant, concrete bits of evidence and trying to build a theory out of them; they have their theory and are looking for arguments that can be used to support them. Hence the emphasizing of things that theoretically could matter but have never (or at least barely) been mentioned in either the comic or the published books (like the fate of Azurites outside the city proper).

Pray tell, what theory is that?

[F.Harr]

Hey! She's really gotten to now our heroes. They really rely on editing.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I like where this is going, it's been ages since I checked up on the comic and I come back to like... four of them!

[B. Dandelion]

Well into "off the deep end of hypotheticals" territory....I've only come up with one way that seems at all plausible for the Azurites to get back Azure City: The Azurites and the Gobbotopians coming together to form one nation, as a condition for Redcloak agreeing to participate in the rift-sealing endeavor to keep the world from being unmade....Which is really far out there.

Especially since the critical component of that scenario (what the Azurites could offer for Redcloak/Jirix/etc. to even entertain the notion) ultimately comes from one sentence in book bonus material:

Spoiler: War and XPs Bonus Content

Show

The Stick Planet Travel Guide says that the Azurites produced a surplus of food...which is pretty impressive since the half of the nation's population living inside Azure City itself is naturally not going to be directly involved with farming.

Redcloak's expecting Gobbotopia to rely on trade to feed itself, so clearly there's more to the vibrant agriculture than tools that the hobgoblins could operate themselves...And I'm sure they value self-sufficiency at a premium.

There's a lot of holes there, key among them whether Redcloak still thinks a "level playing field" is all goblinkind needs (and whether the Dark One ever did); to say nothing of the difficulty involved in implementing such an undertaking....But if the question is "How could the story as known thus far potentially allow the Azurites to return to Azure City, rather than merely reclaim the land where Azure City stood before they or the Snarl annihilated what was left of it"; this is what I have o_o

I guess I considered the possibility of the Azurites peacefully returning wholly separate from the idea of them vengefully returning. If something bad is going to happen to Gobbotopia, there are much closer and scarier threats that fit more thematically with the idea that Redcloak's attachment to the city is in conflict with his pursuit of the Plan. But an ending where the goblins and the humans build a multicultural new country together makes narrative sense to me. It's pretty much the most optimistic outcome possible for the whole cycle of vengeance plotline between the groups, but that's probably a point in its favor.

How we'd get there is a little harder to work out, but I think it could be done. There's a lot we don't know about yet, and a lot of radical things are going to happen between now and the end of the story.

I still can't help but think that something bad happening to Gobbotopia wouldn't preclude the aforesaid happy ending. It would necessarily limit the scope of the carnage to something less than, oh, say, the annihilation of literally every goblin within a 100-mile radius, since enough goblins have to still be alive in the aftermath to make peace with the Azurites and rebuild, but there's a lot that could legitimately be called terrible that would be less than that.

[hungrycrow]

I guess I considered the possibility of the Azurites peacefully returning wholly separate from the idea of them vengefully returning. If something bad is going to happen to Gobbotopia, there are much closer and scarier threats that fit more thematically with the idea that Redcloak's attachment to the city is in conflict with his pursuit of the Plan. But an ending where the goblins and the humans build a multicultural new country together makes narrative sense to me. It's pretty much the most optimistic outcome possible for the whole cycle of vengeance plotline between the groups, but that's probably a point in its favor.

How we'd get there is a little harder to work out, but I think it could be done. There's a lot we don't know about yet, and a lot of radical things are going to happen between now and the end of the story.

I still can't help but think that something bad happening to Gobbotopia wouldn't preclude the aforesaid happy ending. It would necessarily limit the scope of the carnage to something less than, oh, say, the annihilation of literally every goblin within a 100-mile radius, since enough goblins have to still be alive in the aftermath to make peace with the Azurites and rebuild, but there's a lot that could legitimately be called terrible that would be less than that.

The goblin army murdered the Azurites' friends and families just a few months ago. There might be peace between the two sides, but the idea of them living together is overly optimistic.

[factotum]

The goblin army murdered the Azurites' friends and families just a few months ago. There might be peace between the two sides, but the idea of them living together is overly optimistic.

Yeah, I agree. Even without that, there are decades of animosity between the two sides that isn't going to go away just because they agreed to live together--not to mention that the goblins are currently in control of Azure City (and all the surrounding lands, as far as we know, or else the refugees wouldn't have to be on an island on the far side of the world) and would have to be persuaded to allow the humans back in.

TBH, I suspect the main reason that the refugees ended up with a nice abandoned island on the far side of the world precisely because it means they're not really in a position to mount an effort to retake Azure City. The elven infiltration squad was their best effort, and as we know, that failed catastrophically.

[danielxcutter]

Perhaps, but that... feels rather unsatisfying, personally. I don’t expect everything to be sunshine and rainbows, but... is that how it ends? Is that their happy ending?

[hroþila]

They have a good land where they can heal, that's about as happy an ending as we can expect, IMO. The story could still take a wild turn that would make cohabitation plausible, but it doesn't look like it at the moment. Some hobgoblins apparently don't even like goblin immigrants - it would be too much of a stretch to expect them to be OK with the Azurites coming back, considering their previous history and how costly their victory was.

[Hekko]

Perhaps, but that... feels rather unsatisfying, personally. I don’t expect everything to be sunshine and rainbows, but... is that how it ends? Is that their happy ending?

In a few generations, this new land will be their home. Stories about your lost homeland only get you that far. It's not what the survivors would have wanted, but it will not stand in the way of happiness of their grandchildren.

You might want to compare the humans and the hobgoblins in 422.

I still can't get over how beautifully is that page arranged.

[bunsen_h]

Perhaps, but that... feels rather unsatisfying, personally. I don’t expect everything to be sunshine and rainbows, but... is that how it ends? Is that their happy ending?

It's been a generations-long genocidal war, sanctioned by the gods themselves. I can't imagine them learning to get along within the timeframe of this comic. At best, with dedicated leaders seeking a cessation of hostilities, they might manage some kind of peace between well-separated nations, and even then I'd expect a lot of "incidents".

I'm now imagining a Captain-Kirk-alike appearing on scene and informing both sides that they're NOT... GOING... to KILL... TODAY. That peace was the only way to defeat the Snarl. Ewww.

[Peelee]

It's been a generations-long genocidal war, sanctioned by the gods themselves.

The general populace of Azure City didn't even know about the secret order of paladins, so I think it's a safe bet that they had no knowledge of, participation in, or approval, tacit or otherwise, of the generations-long genocidal war against goblins which also stopped several years ago after a major shakeup in the Guard.

[factotum]

The general populace of Azure City didn't even know about the secret order of paladins, so I think it's a safe bet that they had no knowledge of, participation in, or approval, tacit or otherwise, of the generations-long genocidal war against goblins which also stopped several years ago after a major shakeup in the Guard.

And all that is going to affect the attitude of the *goblins* because...? As far as they're concerned, they've been oppressed by Azure City for decades, they're not going to care much who it was who was giving the orders.

[Peelee]

And all that is going to affect the attitude of the *goblins* because...? As far as they're concerned, they've been oppressed by Azure City for decades, they're not going to care much who it was who was giving the orders.

It's not going to affect the attitudes of the goblins at all, but once I read "sanctioned by the gods themselves", I guessed that text was not talking about the attitudes of the goblin people. At least, not primarily.

Given that the goblin people seemingly have no issue with the government enslaving humans, I doubt they would be overly welcoming of peaceful human neighbors within Gobbotopia.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Depends. Are those "peaceful human neighbors" they can raid for more slaves, or are they "peaceful human neighbors" they have to leave alone? Evil, remember, even if given some personal development.

[Peelee]

Depends. Are those "peaceful human neighbors" they can raid for more slaves, or are they "peaceful human neighbors" they have to leave alone? Evil, remember, even if given some personal development.

Usually evil. Besides, even if every one was evil, that doesn't mean they have to go around kicking puppies and burning orphanages.

[Fyraltari]

Usually evil. Besides, even if every one was evil, that doesn't mean they have to go around kicking puppies and burning orphanages.

Of course not, one must remember to burn puppies and kick orphanages once in a while to keep it fresh.

[Kantaki]

Of course not, one must remember to burn puppies and kick orphanages once in a while to keep it fresh.

Cooking* and hurting your feet** is evil now?

*Badly. With a few exemptions you shouldn't set what you're cooking on fire.
Much less long enough to qualify as "burning".
**I mean, what did you expect, kicking a building.
Without proper shoes at that.

[hroþila]

We know the hobgoblins are nothing if not disciplined. If their authorities brokered a deal with the Azurites, there would be incidents but I reckon they would mostly respect the agreement, at least until there was a coup. The problem is getting the authorities to agree, as currently they have no clear reason to implement such an unpopular policy and risk the aforementioned coup.