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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Tyrael's Avatar

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    Default Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object: Quivering Palm vs. Loyal Beyond Death

    Hey, folks. I've got a rules-interpretation question for you guys. Quivering Palm is a save-or-die death effect. However, Loyal Beyond Death allows you to keep going after being reduced to -10HP. Do the two abilities overlap at all? Does Quivering Palm drop someone to -10HP? If so, then it would be doing direct damage, but at the same time, the Quivering Palm description says absolutely nothing about HP damage. So, does LBD even work against Quivering Palm? There's a bit of a paradox, because if it DOES work, then it implies that Quivering Palm does HP damage, which the description says nothing about, but if it DOESN'T work, that makes no sense because LBD allows you to keep functioning so long as your body is intact.

    What do you guys think?

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    Default Re: Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object: Quivering Palm vs. Loyal Beyond Death

    Quivering beats Loyal, far as I know. Quite simply, save or die is not damage. The same happens witht he broken Immortal Fortitude stance for Crusader, but it's more clearly worded and more broken.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object: Quivering Palm vs. Loyal Beyond Death

    When you die, your HPs get set to -10 regardless of what actually killed you. I don't know if that helps or not.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object: Quivering Palm vs. Loyal Beyond Death

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    When you die, your HPs get set to -10 regardless of what actually killed you. I don't know if that helps or not.
    Actually... is that true? You die when you get to -10, but does it actually say you're automatically dropped to -10 when you die?


    In any case, Quivering Palm wins here. A save-or-die effect is not damage.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Mewtarthio's Avatar

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    Default Re: Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object: Quivering Palm vs. Loyal Beyond Death

    Out of curiosity, why Quivering Palm instead of, say, Finger of Death?
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    Anxe's Avatar

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    Default Re: Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object: Quivering Palm vs. Loyal Beyond Death

    A death effect deals damage equal to the target's HP when it is full + 10.

    I don't know if there is an actual ruling about this, but I derived it from the Tarrasque's description.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object: Quivering Palm vs. Loyal Beyond Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Anxe View Post
    A death effect deals damage equal to the target's HP when it is full + 10.

    I don't know if there is an actual ruling about this, but I derived it from the Tarrasque's description.
    That's just a specific case for the tarrasque.

    A Death effect sets your status to "Dead", and as such your HP total is a moot point. You're dead.

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    Jasdoif's Avatar

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    Default Re: Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object: Quivering Palm vs. Loyal Beyond Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonmuncher View Post
    Actually... is that true? You die when you get to -10, but does it actually say you're automatically dropped to -10 when you die?
    When you're dead, your hit points are assumed to be -10 in case it matters, regardless of how you died.

    Abilities that prevent you from dying when you get to -10 hit points or below don't help in this case, however: You're already dead.
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