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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Need help deciding on edition for item

    Hellow fellow scribes...

    So, I have a question about an item. An item, which does not have an official write-up/ stats in 3.X, but has so in 2nd and 5th edition.

    Now this item is a major artifact, and differs somewhat in power in the respective editions, or more precisely its more powerful in 2nd ed than in 5th. This I attribute more to the fact that magic is less preponderant or toned down in 5th than in 2nd or 3rd for that matter, but anyways they differ in power. Now to my problem:

    I want to bring this item into our game. The question as it stands is which edition should I/ we use?

    My position, personally, is that we should use the latest publication up to and including 3.5. This means, that if it hasn't been updated in 3.5, then you use the latest before that, which is the 2nd edition version, since that is the latest publication, and thus should be used - with a few adaptation in terms individual mechanics... But what do you guys think?

    Again, I personally feel we should use the 2nd edition version, but but i don't know if there are official rules here or anything... so I would love to hear the thoughts of the collective hive mind of epic gamers...


    Thank you in advance!
    Last edited by Melcar; 2020-04-18 at 02:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Powerdork's Avatar

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Which is more interesting at your table?
    The future is bright.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Quote Originally Posted by Metool View Post
    Which is more interesting at your table?
    This. But also what item even is it?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Quote Originally Posted by Metool View Post
    Which is more interesting at your table?
    Well, in my opinion, the 2nd edition version is much cooler, has a lot more fluff to it, but it also has more potent abilities... Again the potency is not an issue, since its an epic campaign, I'm just trying to figure out if there is a right and a wrong way of going about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Afghanistan View Post
    This. But also what item even is it?
    I'm hesitant to say, others might be watching, so to speak, but its an item which in terms of power rival that of The Highfire Crown or the Nether Scolls... (at least in the 2nd ed version). Not many of those so you might be able to guess! :)
    Last edited by Melcar; 2020-04-18 at 03:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Strictly speaking, there's no dialogue between editions. This means you can't simply 'use' a 2e or 5e item in a 3.5 game, and there's no 'right' answer as to which item to use because neither is in the rules. As you're the DM, you would be homebrewing the item, so it's actually a "do whatever you want" scenario. If you feel the 2e version is better, cooler and fits more in your campaign, go with it and tweak the effects for the 3rd edition.

    In terms of power, 2e is much closer to 3.5, so the tweaks would be minor and feel more like translations than anything. Porting something back from 5e tends to result in an underwhelming item or in a lot of work to make the item worth it, at which point you're basically designing from scratch.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayblis View Post
    In terms of power, 2e is much closer to 3.5, so the tweaks would be minor and feel more like translations than anything. Porting something back from 5e tends to result in an underwhelming item or in a lot of work to make the item worth it, at which point you're basically designing from scratch.
    This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. 2E is full of super-powerful crazy ****, and so is 3.5, it's likely to be a lot more similar than the 5E version.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayblis View Post
    Strictly speaking, there's no dialogue between editions. This means you can't simply 'use' a 2e or 5e item in a 3.5 game, and there's no 'right' answer as to which item to use because neither is in the rules. As you're the DM, you would be homebrewing the item, so it's actually a "do whatever you want" scenario. If you feel the 2e version is better, cooler and fits more in your campaign, go with it and tweak the effects for the 3rd edition.

    In terms of power, 2e is much closer to 3.5, so the tweaks would be minor and feel more like translations than anything. Porting something back from 5e tends to result in an underwhelming item or in a lot of work to make the item worth it, at which point you're basically designing from scratch.
    Ok right, I thought there might have been like a conversion thing or something... either way, I feel its more natural to port in things from 2nd edition than 5th. We have been using tons of lore from 2nd. and the two versions of the game - in terms of magical power level - are a lot closer than 3.5 to 5th.

    Also the idea that one would use the latest published version, up until and including 3.5. That might not be a rule, but it seem logical somehow to me, that you would go backwards to find a version than forwards...


    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. 2E is full of super-powerful crazy ****, and so is 3.5, it's likely to be a lot more similar than the 5E version.
    Right, the item can basically be ported in directly... very few things needs to be adapted, so its makes perfect sense to use the 2nd edition version...
    Last edited by Melcar; 2020-04-19 at 12:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    As others have mentioned, the level of magical power in items and spells are almost identical between 2nd and 3rd. Therefore, you should use the 2nd edition version of the item and convert to fit the mechanics of 3rd, like casting time, saving throws, THAC0, AC, etc...

    Also, you wouldn't get your lore from 5th, since that makes no sense, neither should you get your rules on items or spells from 5th. 4th and 5th edition exists somewhere in the future, in a post Spell Plague world... 3rd does not. The magic - lore-wise - is the same, so items would not have changed... And since most write-ups of artifacts are lore heavy, its safe to say that what ever the 2nd edition write-ups said it did, it still does in 3.5. I mean, what ever powers the Highfire Crow bestows in 2nd edition it still does in 3rd. Only difference is how they mechanically function, in order to bestow said powers... Its just like the rule that states that if there is not an updated version in 3.5, you use the 3.0 version, the logical conclusion would be if there is no 3.5 version, and no 3.0 version, you would go back to 2nd... Also, many of the artifacts of the realms were designed by Ed Greenwood himself back then, and one can't really go wrong with using his original write-ups...

    So, since your item in question does not have an updated version in 3.5, go back to the latest publication before that, ergo the 2nd edition version.

    To conclude, use the 2nd edition version!


    Cheers!

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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    2nd edition doesn't translate as well as most would seem to think. Importing an artifact as is would not work out well mechanics-wise. It also depends on the artifact. If you're not comfortable saying which, the playground is limited.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Quote Originally Posted by RNightstalker View Post
    2nd edition doesn't translate as well as most would seem to think. Importing an artifact as is would not work out well mechanics-wise. It also depends on the artifact. If you're not comfortable saying which, the playground is limited.
    Well the item in qustion is:

    Spoiler
    Show
    The ring of Winter


    Now to me, it does not make sense to use an item from 5th, when playing 3.5. I like the whole "if it hasn't been updated, use the version that came before". That the way we have been doing things so far, and it works fine. Just like we can use lore from before but not lore from the future. Also, the 2nd edition version is a lot closer to the abilities given to the ring in the novel.

    The question was, whether or not there was some official rules stating one thing or the other... and naturally I was interested in your thoughts and in what you guys would do in my situation.

    I didn't want to say what item it was, for fear of the whole "Its too powerful to give to players". The thing is, I'm not the DM, I'm the player who wants to find the ring. Now, I'm not in control of exactly what abilities or how the abilities translate into mechanics in our game, but usually our DM wants input. As he usually says: "its supposed to be fun... if you think this is fun and its not interfering in anyone else's fun, then that might very well be how things are functioning". Its an epic (both players are level 32), basically single player, campaign, (we are two players, but play in different years, so my character is about 2 years ahead of the other guy, so we currently have very little interaction, so there's no party to balance against or anything like that... but I'm no the DM, and I wanted to know what people thought... and if there was anything official on the matter...

    So how would you guys go about it?
    Last edited by Melcar; 2020-04-21 at 04:49 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Only can find 5e stats, but it doesn't seem too overpowered from that.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Quote Originally Posted by RNightstalker View Post
    Only can find 5e stats, but it doesn't seem too overpowered from that.
    The 2nd ed version is in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, page 112.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Thanks for the reference, I would definitely qualify it as a MAJOR artifact. I think it can be translated into 3.x terms with a little time and thought.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Quote Originally Posted by RNightstalker View Post
    Thanks for the reference, I would definitely qualify it as a MAJOR artifact. I think it can be translated into 3.x terms with a little time and thought.
    See that was my thought also... Now I just need to find it ingame... thats the difficult part I guess!
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Need help deciding on edition for item

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    See that was my thought also... Now I just need to find it ingame... thats the difficult part I guess!
    I think it would've popped up in game by now if it was out there. I guess you get to just translate it.

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