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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
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    Oct 2006

    Default Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    There are no options for Neutral spellcasters to summon Neutral creatures for Monster Summoning until level 3.

    In the game I'm currently playing, the PCs are all Neutral. The DM is mildly regretting that since the campaign he wrote is designed for Good characters but that's another story.

    Two of us our sorcerers. It's a low level game, and we are both multiclass which is pushing our spell level down further. Assuming we decide to go get Monster Summoning I or II some day, what could we summon that can compete with Fiendish and Celestial animals. I know that we could summon Fiendish or Celestial animals, but that just doesn't seem to fit with our characters well.

    Also, even though said character will likely never see the light of day, I have a concept for a Neutral Conjurer.

    I read about Alien template creatures in Complete Arcana, that seems a little far, especially since you technically need a prestige class to summon them.

    If we just summon normal animals, we would just lag behind our party's druid.

    Any thoughts or ideas?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Gralamin's Avatar

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    Feb 2005

    Default Re: Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    Don't summon. Summons never do enough to matter.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

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    Appalachian Mountains

    Default Re: Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    That isn't the case, but arcane spellcasters shouldn't cast summon spells.
    Anytime an arcane caster casts a spell on a divine list, for that round he's a sucker.
    Courtesy of Logic Ninja.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Gralamin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skjaldbakka View Post
    That isn't the case, but arcane spellcasters shouldn't cast summon spells. Courtesy of Logic Ninja.
    Allow me to reiterate:
    At low levels, a summon does not last long enough to actually matter in a battle. Plus, its not the casters job if they are arcane.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    You don't get a whole heck of a lot from fiendish/celestial templates. Are you all true nuetral? I am sure in some book there is an axiomatic/anarchic template similar to celestial/fiendish. It wouldn't be tough to extrapolate either.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2006

    Default Re: Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    Both us sorcerers are Neutral. Technically true neutral but we don't care for the balance.

    I find it odd that summoning is being bashed a lot. The druid's Summon Nature's Allies spells are very helpful and we don't have a good PC to serve as a human shield for us.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    The druid's Summon Nature's Allies spells are very helpful and we don't have a good PC to serve as a human shield for us.
    That would be the relevant bit there. If you want to summon alot, play a druid. A wizard that focuses on summoning is not any better at it than the druid, and doesn't have all the goodies that a druid gets. A wizard should focus more on spells that are exclusive to wizards.
    Last edited by Skjaldbakka; 2007-10-25 at 12:53 AM.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Temp's Avatar

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    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    Way to be helpful...



    Anyway, there really isn't a way to get out of Aligned summons. What you could pretty easily do is just talk to your DM about modifying your Summon Monster list. As a general guidelines:

    SM1 should get creatures between CR 1/3 and 1/2
    SM 2 should get creatures around CR 1
    SM 3-CR 2
    SM 4-CR 3
    SM 5-CR 5
    SM 6-CR 6
    SM 7-CR 7
    SM 8-CR 10
    SM 9-CR 11

    If you want to just throw the pseudonatural template onto the fiendish/celestial creatures without alienist, there shouldn't be too much of a balance issue.

    Like the other two said, Sorcerer is weak for summoning both because Clerics can do the same thing with better HP, Armor and BA and because Sorcs have to commit so many valuable spell slots just to keep their monsters strong enough to contribute well.

    If you intend to develop your character as a Summoner instead of just dabbling with a spell or two, you might look into the Malconvoker. It's very neat and pretty neutral (the fluff is that you trick evil creatures to doing whatever it is you do). Also, here's the Summoner's Guide from the gleemax boards. It should give you the information you want for your Conjurer.
    Last edited by Temp; 2007-10-25 at 01:53 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    Way to be helpful...
    How is advising a low-level multiclass sorcerer in a party with a druid that likes to use summoning spells not to take summoning spells in any way not helpful?

    I suppose it isn't helpful in the same way that telling someone not to jump off a bridge when they ask you about the best way to go about it.
    Last edited by Skjaldbakka; 2007-10-25 at 02:11 AM.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Temp's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skjaldbakka
    How is advising a low-level multiclass sorcerer in a party with a druid that likes to use summoning spells not to take summoning spells in any way not helpful?
    At the time it looked like you were answering a "How can I make the best of the situation I'm in?" question with a "Rebuild your character entirely" response. On a second reading, it looks like I misinterpreted the situation.

    So scratch that comment, I guess.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Imagination Land
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    Default Re: Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    Well, your problem seems to stem from the very nature of the Summon Monster line of spells. These spells summon extraplanar creatures, and aside from the odd elemental, these creatures mostly come from the Outer Planes.

    Now, the Outer Planes in the standard D&D cosmology are basically arranged around the Great Wheel by alignment, with each plane having a general stance on good vs. evil and law vs. chaos. Unfortunately for you, none of the Outer Planes are simply Neutral except for the Outlands, which is itself mostly populated by creatures from other planes. This is why there aren't more Neutral options on the lists.

    That being said, it is obvious that the lists are dominated by celestials, celestial creatures, fiends, and fiendish creatures, which leaves out a whole lot of planar flavors. I know there have been places in other books where additional creatures have been added to the options for summoning spells, but I don't know if there was anything to fit the theme of your character as specifically as you'd like.

    My best advice is to work with your DM to find appropriate extraplanar creatures that are suitable for you, or to research a spell that summons varying degrees of paragon legendary animals of legend. Or just make it easy on yourself and summon a celestial creature this time and a fiendish one the next time.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

    Watch me draw and swear at video games.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    goken04's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fiendish and Celestial Animals? What about Neutral summoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scalenex View Post
    Also, even though said character will likely never see the light of day, I have a concept for a Neutral Conjurer.
    Yes. I'm playing a Level 3 TN Conjurer right now (started at level 1), focussing on summons, who will take his next 2 levels in Master Specialist followed by nine levels of Malconvoker. Malconvoker is the way to go w/ a Neutral Summon-focused Conjurer.

    Trade Familiar for Rapid Summons (cast any summon spell as a standard action rather than a full-round action, and the summoned creature gets a standard action in that round), I forget where this variant comes from, i think it's UA. Trade Scribe Scroll for Augment Summoning (another variant, maybe from Dragon). I also took the Focussed Specialist variant, so at first level I had 3 conjuration spells + 1 any spell ea. day, though this variant is hardly necessary.

    Me I took a flaw (noncombatant) and was human, so by first level, I also had Spell Focus (Conjuration) (unfortunate prereq. for Master Specialist, but to compensate I made sure to make good use of grease and glitterdust), Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration), and Extend Spell. Being able to Extend all my summon spells for free at first level made me effective right out of the gate (Fiendish Monstrous Spiders: WEB EVERY ENEMY!).

    At level 3? I took Fiendish Summoning Specialist. This allows you, working w/ the DM, to add one evil-aligned creature to each level of SMI that you can cast. I added the Fiendish Corollax (MMII, CR 1/2) to SMI and the Kaorti (Fiend Folio, CR 1) to SMII.

    For the price of one SMI, a level one spell, I can summon a F. Corollax who, once a round, can cast color spray, another first level spell. Sure, its caster level is only one and its DC is one less than mine would be. But I trade those small things for THREE color sprays for the price of a 1st level spell slot. And that's only if its not extended for free.

    And don't get me started on the handy SLAs of the Kaorti. And the Kaorti says in its entry it can go on the SMII list!

    At Malconvoker Level 5, every time you summon an evil creature, you summon an EXTRA one. That, effectively, makes your Summon Monster 2 a SUmmon Monster 3. Malconvoker: making the TN Wizard a better summoner than a Druid since 2007. For more information on the Malconvoker, consult your local library.
    Sweet avatar of Gikalek by KaptainKrutch.

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