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  1. - Top - End - #601
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Rather than hate Renee, I mostly just find her pitiable.

    She tries hard to look after her friends and kind of wishes that they were more grateful and/or in a place to reciprocate more often, though she herself worded it badly - hard to blame her for that really, it's still a kindness to take on a thankless task and keep on it.

    She also wants a stable relationship with someone who treats her like an equal, but at the same time she's also immature, impulsive and insecure so she has no idea how to get that and rushes into bad decisions like picking up jerks from a bar or blurting out the first thing that comes to mind without reading it back to herself. We've all been there, probably in our teens or early 20's so the chances are above-average that Renee makes us uncomfortable because she's reminding us of what it was like to be young and dumb.

    Let's be charitable - rather than hate her as a character, let's recognise that she has a LOT of room into which she can grow - I mean, not all characters in her position will avoid the Scrappy Heap but Jeph's done it before (Clinton might not be a great example but *I* like him a lot more now than his first appearances) so it may all be part of a plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin
    I like how Something Positive handles this problem.
    I agree, and the fact that the author hasn't really called it out in-universe is the best way he can integrate it as a plot point. It just happens, it's always been there, and everything flows naturally - QC likewise is kind of the same, albeit only up to the point that Marten has apparently never celebrated his birthday despite living through at least 3 winters in the same apartment.

    Like I said above, maybe Jeph is doing the right thing and just ignoring it. I remember another comic called Least I Could Do which had "comic time" up until one day, the characters in the comic received a letter from the author which explicitly told them that from now on time would pass for them the same as In Real Life (except for the pet cat, who would live forever because no one wants to see the cat grow old and die). It.... wasn't great.
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  2. - Top - End - #602
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Rather than hate Renee, I mostly just find her pitiable.

    She tries hard to look after her friends and kind of wishes that they were more grateful and/or in a place to reciprocate more often, though she herself worded it badly - hard to blame her for that really, it's still a kindness to take on a thankless task and keep on it.

    She also wants a stable relationship with someone who treats her like an equal, but at the same time she's also immature, impulsive and insecure so she has no idea how to get that and rushes into bad decisions like picking up jerks from a bar or blurting out the first thing that comes to mind without reading it back to herself. We've all been there, probably in our teens or early 20's so the chances are above-average that Renee makes us uncomfortable because she's reminding us of what it was like to be young and dumb.

    Let's be charitable - rather than hate her as a character, let's recognise that she has a LOT of room into which she can grow - I mean, not all characters in her position will avoid the Scrappy Heap but Jeph's done it before (Clinton might not be a great example but *I* like him a lot more now than his first appearances) so it may all be part of a plan.
    Today's comic certainly indicates that she's supposed to be 'that character that screws up (and that's part of the point).' Like her or dislike her, we're not supposed to think she's in the right or making the right decisions. It's a far cry from Dora/Faye in their heyday where it often was unclear if Jeph realized that they were being awful.

    I agree, and the fact that the author hasn't really called it out in-universe is the best way he can integrate it as a plot point. It just happens, it's always been there, and everything flows naturally - QC likewise is kind of the same, albeit only up to the point that Marten has apparently never celebrated his birthday despite living through at least 3 winters in the same apartment.

    Like I said above, maybe Jeph is doing the right thing and just ignoring it. I remember another comic called Least I Could Do which had "comic time" up until one day, the characters in the comic received a letter from the author which explicitly told them that from now on time would pass for them the same as In Real Life (except for the pet cat, who would live forever because no one wants to see the cat grow old and die). It.... wasn't great.
    Least I Could Do has all sorts of problems, but I don't think the shift to characters aging has been a big one (unless there's something I am forgetting). The protagonist as author-wish-fulfillment-avatar/karma-Houdini wasn't going to age well regardless of whether they stayed perpetually 25 or aged 1:1 with time.

    Regarding static or dynamic comic time, I think the only thing needed is to think through how it works with the overall premise. QC has always interacted with the real world through tech and pop-culture references and that can be jarring. On the other hand, Foxtrot does the same thing, but it works because the characters are fairly stock. So as long as you conveniently ignore that it started with 'teen obsessed with Springsteen' and moved on to 'teen obsessed with Backstreet Boys/Nsync expie' to whatever it does now, it works. Same with '10 year old boy obsessed with the latest computer game and nerd-culture media' because that is a perpetual trope. I think, if your comic has interaction with modern culture baked into its DNA (QC, Doonesbury, Bloom County), and takes continuity somewhat seriously (only QC and Doonesbury), you either have to age the characters, or be prepared for some dissonance.

  3. - Top - End - #603
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Well, when we were first introduced to her and she looked shockingly dissimilar to her current form, she was as bad as Faye with none of the "fun sass" that made Faye likeable. First introductions tend to stick...

    Plus, this is supposedly still the Renee that was burned in effigy as "ding dong the witch is dead" was sung. A lovable character like Angus (or Marigold) wouldn't do that if she wasn't unlikeable.
    It has been some time and I'll freely admit to the lack of knowledge.

    Would you be comfortable to providing some evidence to your claims? Because, I really want to see that, but I have no idea where to start even looking.
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  4. - Top - End - #604
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Rather than hate Renee, I mostly just find her pitiable.

    She tries hard to look after her friends and kind of wishes that they were more grateful and/or in a place to reciprocate more often, though she herself worded it badly - hard to blame her for that really, it's still a kindness to take on a thankless task and keep on it.

    She also wants a stable relationship with someone who treats her like an equal, but at the same time she's also immature, impulsive and insecure so she has no idea how to get that and rushes into bad decisions like picking up jerks from a bar or blurting out the first thing that comes to mind without reading it back to herself. We've all been there, probably in our teens or early 20's so the chances are above-average that Renee makes us uncomfortable because she's reminding us of what it was like to be young and dumb.
    She doesn't really look after her friends; she's thus far been as intrusive as Claire at her worst or outright harassing towards people. She automatically assumes the worst in Clinton when he helped Brun out; has to be called out by her boss as being sexually harassing towards Elliot; and honestly the "shipping" mentality in casual friendship is gross, I don't really get why Jeph seems to enjoy it so much.

    Forcing a "relearn a lesson already learnt" story plot just to make someone appear to be a "mom-friend" is lazy at best, and is also a children's-tv-show trope that really shouldn't make the jump to comics. There's nothing Renee advised that Elliot hadn't already heard from Marten previously. We don't call Marten a "dad-friend" for such help (or any of his other advice habits). This one is just a rehashing of that conversation about "high school friends" from the moving day, but with a shift from "they're still a jerk" to "now they're hot".

    And that second paragraph relies on a lot of conjecture. So far, she really hasn't shown that she wants a stable relationship at all, she just doesn't want a hook-up that burns the bridge on the way out.

    In general, Renee hasn't really shown herself to get better, just differently abrasive, and expecting thanks when you're also abrasive constantly isn't a redeeming quality. She's just doing the minimum for being a friend and expecting showers of praise.

    P.S. Mordokai, that "burned in effigy" comment by Angus was almost certainly facetious, but also you don't make comments like that unless they earned such a statement through irritation or frustration. What was probably less facetious in his statement was his "phd in belittling people" and "ding dong the witch is dead" comments. So far, the "phd in belittling people" hasn't been disproven.
    Last edited by Wildstag; 2020-09-24 at 03:39 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #605
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Renee would like to be a good person, but as soon as she goes on auto pilot The Jerk is in control.

    I won‘t waste emotional energy on her.
    * my emphasis

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  6. - Top - End - #606
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I agree, and the fact that the author hasn't really called it out in-universe is the best way he can integrate it as a plot point. It just happens, it's always been there, and everything flows naturally - QC likewise is kind of the same, albeit only up to the point that Marten has apparently never celebrated his birthday despite living through at least 3 winters in the same apartment.

    Like I said above, maybe Jeph is doing the right thing and just ignoring it. I remember another comic called Least I Could Do which had "comic time" up until one day, the characters in the comic received a letter from the author which explicitly told them that from now on time would pass for them the same as In Real Life (except for the pet cat, who would live forever because no one wants to see the cat grow old and die). It.... wasn't great.
    Bill Holbrook made the switch with On The Fastrack, with the children in the comic going from stuck at one age to growing up kinda in sync with real-world time.

    Of course, he also hasn't shown those characters in ages, and now mainly focuses on the goth chick character who came on as a supporting character.
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  7. - Top - End - #607
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I agree, and the fact that the author hasn't really called it out in-universe is the best way he can integrate it as a plot point. It just happens, it's always been there, and everything flows naturally - QC likewise is kind of the same, albeit only up to the point that Marten has apparently never celebrated his birthday despite living through at least 3 winters in the same apartment.
    Randy's been so dedicated to the "real time" part that he honored a call-forward gag that nobody would have criticized him for ignoring. The teen of the comic decided to break into school... because a panel from years ago showed him walking into school on that date (and just then remembering and getting the dirty joke in the original strip).

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Bill Holbrook made the switch with On The Fastrack, with the children in the comic going from stuck at one age to growing up kinda in sync with real-world time.

    Of course, he also hasn't shown those characters in ages, and now mainly focuses on the goth chick character who came on as a supporting character.
    Also, glorification of nearly literal enslavement to one's boss.

  8. - Top - End - #608
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    So no, we're not going down the ""Renee has no chance at a relationship" pity-party route, we're just going to mention it a couple of times and then hook her up with a hot guy who seems remarkably forgiving, for some reason.

    Either she's going to hit it off with someone who handily counters her abrasiveness, or it's going to end up like a scene from Carrie and this date is just a setup for a whole lot of pig blood.

    I'm pretty much okay with either outcome.
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  9. - Top - End - #609
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Im picturing a couple options. One where the bullied kid turned his life around and now works as some sort of social worker who helps other youths deal with what he went through, meaning she will learn just how much of a doodoo heel she was in high school and how much damage that caused him mentally to be bullied like that by so many people (A single insult from a million mouths, or a million from one, both can be devastating) Or its a twist meeting where we learn he earned that nickname honestly by being a seriously doodoo type of guy and now he is a gym bro on top of it. Third option is he didnt take it seriously, not everyone is scarred for life dealing with mockery at school, and it might have just been a joking nickname instead of a malicious one, and found the callback honestly funny and now he wants to connect with a girl and have a date.
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  10. - Top - End - #610
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    P.S. Mordokai, that "burned in effigy" comment by Angus was almost certainly facetious, but also you don't make comments like that unless they earned such a statement through irritation or frustration. What was probably less facetious in his statement was his "phd in belittling people" and "ding dong the witch is dead" comments. So far, the "phd in belittling people" hasn't been disproven.
    I'll be honest with you, I never would have made connection with Renee, based on Angus's description alone. You spelling it out for me makes it quite obvious, but on my own... yeah, I very much doubt it.

    Gee, Renee really is... something, I guess
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  11. - Top - End - #611
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Also, glorification of nearly literal enslavement to one's boss.
    I don't think I'd call that depiction glorification...
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  12. - Top - End - #612
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Third option is he didnt take it seriously, not everyone is scarred for life dealing with mockery at school, and it might have just been a joking nickname instead of a malicious one, and found the callback honestly funny and now he wants to connect with a girl and have a date.
    You're implying that a person's entire adult personality is NOT directly and unequivocally connected to their experiences during High School? In a Questionable Content comic? Good luck with that!
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    P.S. Mordokai, that "burned in effigy" comment by Angus was almost certainly facetious, but also you don't make comments like that unless they earned such a statement through irritation or frustration. What was probably less facetious in his statement was his "phd in belittling people" and "ding dong the witch is dead" comments. So far, the "phd in belittling people" hasn't been disproven.
    I missed or forgot where that was linked to Renee.
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  14. - Top - End - #614
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Randy's been so dedicated to the "real time" part that he honored a call-forward gag that nobody would have criticized him for ignoring. The teen of the comic decided to break into school... because a panel from years ago showed him walking into school on that date (and just then remembering and getting the dirty joke in the original strip).
    To clarify this a little bit:

    The original strip had nothing to do with breaking into school, or with school in general. It was just a flash forward to a conversation between two teens as they walked into school.

    Normally, this wouldn't require revisiting. It was a single panel punchline. However, this is 2020, and nothing is that simple. Schools shut down due to the pandemic prior to the date listed on the original. Webcomic fans being the dangerously obsessive people that we are*, people immediately pointed out the upcoming plot hole. So he had to come up with a "breaking lockdown" storyline to make things match up, or he'd be getting Comic Book Guys coming up to him at conventions for years to come.

    It's kind of glorious, because it's such a SP thing to happen. A time-delayed "screw you" aimed directly at Randy 7 years in the future is perfectly in keeping with the tone of his comic.



    *myself included. Why yes, I have dug through 5000 QC strips looking for a specific cite to refute a forum post, why do you ask?

  15. - Top - End - #615
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Fwiw, that one link I shared only is his description of his most recent ex. It isn't until later that it's explicitly spelled out as Renee having been that ex.

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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    I like Elliot's horror here. I don't think we knew about his feelings yet.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    ...Wow, looking back, Renee is completely unrecognizable as the same character. I had thought she was a different side character from the Bakery when I saw her in the older comic.

  18. - Top - End - #618
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by mythmonster2 View Post
    ...Wow, looking back, Renee is completely unrecognizable as the same character. I had thought she was a different side character from the Bakery when I saw her in the older comic.
    Yeah, she's been completely changed, in a way that's not just the "art drift" that's happened to some of the characters.
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  19. - Top - End - #619
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    She's had a haircut and swapped her glasses for contacts, it's hardly THAT weird.
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  20. - Top - End - #620
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    She's had a haircut and swapped her glasses for contacts, it's hardly THAT weird.
    Original Renee -- https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1845 / https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1868

    Current Renee -- https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4360

    To me it looks like an entirely different character, not an art-shifted character.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2020-09-25 at 02:25 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #621
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Her rounded chin was also made pointy like most everyone else (though Dale gets a square-ish chin?). Also, and this just may be a result of the changing art, but she ended up a lot curvier than her introductory pages.

    She's introduced on 1845 and reintroduced on 3243. There's a very noticeable change in artwork between then, and aside from her ear piercing, is otherwise shockingly different. Also, I don't recall enough time having passed between those two comics such that her hair would naturally have grown to be that long, though hair extensions are a thing.

    Since her reintroduction, she's no longer wearing her nose or ear piercings, we haven't seen her glasses at all, and her eyes got pretty tall considering they were pretty narrow even behind glasses. Compare eye sizes in 1845 between Renee and Hannelore.

    She's gotten some pretty big changes in design.

  22. - Top - End - #622
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    That first comic she looks more like black tai.
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  23. - Top - End - #623
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    The original comic had the joke that it was supposed to be some sort of Bizzaro CoD? Red Flannel Glasses Guy With An X on his neck never shows up again, but it looks like Elliot there is supposed to be a Pseudo-Martin, Padma and The Woman Who Will Become Renee are supposed to visually evoke Dora and Faye (At least as far as two women, one taller, one shorter, with the shorter one having square glasses).

    At least that's what Jeph seems to have been going for from the dialogue? Really, none of them look like especially clear parallels to the main cast, but we're clearly supposed to take it that way?

    Unless the joke is just supposed to be that it's another cafe type place where a bunch of twentysomething are having Romance Drama and Wacky Hijinks?
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