Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

[Eurus]

Honestly, is it worse than Renee's repeated foot-in-mouth moments with The Hunk Formerly Known As ****ty Dan? I mean, it's definitely embarrassing and dumb and I'm sure Clinton is going to feel bad about it the next day, and Elliot's got it rough trying to deal with a drunk friend at his work in a tactful way, but... I get the feeling that it was a bad idea for Clinton to visit Elliot at work like this in the first place, and it would have gone better if it was a "normal" date.

[hungrycrow]

Honestly, is it worse than Renee's repeated foot-in-mouth moments with The Hunk Formerly Known As ****ty Dan? I mean, it's definitely embarrassing and dumb and I'm sure Clinton is going to feel bad about it the next day, and Elliot's got it rough trying to deal with a drunk friend at his work in a tactful way, but... I get the feeling that it was a bad idea for Clinton to visit Elliot at work like this in the first place, and it would have gone better if it was a "normal" date.

Given Elliot's expressions and the irony of what Clinton is saying, i think this potential romantic relationship is over.

[Morquard]

Given Elliot's expressions and the irony of what Clinton is saying, i think this potential romantic relationship is over.

I don't know. Here's my prediction what's gonna happen. Clinton goes to his mom, maybe Claire's there too, who asks "Hey how'd it go" and he tells them about the talk with Brun, and they're "Oh man, you screwed up". Meanwhile Eliot is talking to someone at the bar, maybe Marten and Steve or Will, and they tell him "Ok, so yes what he did was not great, but maybe you overreacted a bit in the moment." He agreed to come to the mom's house and they both apologize. Then they snuggle the dog and smoke weed.

[eee]

As someone on the spectrum themselves, I have to say, sometimes the conventionally brain-wired have to explain these things. 'Normal' is just too alien to our thought processes to be grasped...

[Max_Killjoy]

How did Clinton violate Elliot's trust?

He didn't ask Brun about Elliot, he asked her about her general feelings in the context of his own attraction to Brun and her feelings or not in return.

[Yuki Akuma]

Elliot said he "kind of feels" that Clinton betrayed his trust, during a long ramble about the current situation that he clearly feels uncomfortable about and is only talking about because his autistic friend is confused about what just happened.

He's talking about spur of the moment feelings.

[Traab]

How did Clinton violate Elliot's trust?

He didn't ask Brun about Elliot, he asked her about her general feelings in the context of his own attraction to Brun and her feelings or not in return.

Because he went and asked brun about how she felt about him while on a sort of get to know you meet-cute with him. It feels a bit tacky to be trying to figure out how you feel about someone only to go to someone else and try to see how they feel about you. Imagine if you and I went to a bar to chat and see how things went, and then i started texting some other person to try and figure out how they felt about me too? It comes off as me looking for someone else while im supposed to be with you. Its not as bad as if we were actually dating and doing that, but its still kinda bad.

[Max_Killjoy]

Because he went and asked brun about how she felt about him while on a sort of get to know you meet-cute with him. It feels a bit tacky to be trying to figure out how you feel about someone only to go to someone else and try to see how they feel about you. Imagine if you and I went to a bar to chat and see how things went, and then i started texting some other person to try and figure out how they felt about me too? It comes off as me looking for someone else while im supposed to be with you. Its not as bad as if we were actually dating and doing that, but its still kinda bad.

He ran into Brun on the way to the bathroom, and was drunk, and asked her spontaneously. It's not like he want looking for her.

[BRC]

How did Clinton violate Elliot's trust?

He didn't ask Brun about Elliot, he asked her about her general feelings in the context of his own attraction to Brun and her feelings or not in return.

He didn't, but Elliot feels kind of like he did.

Elliot opened up to Clinton, and on the night that's supposed to be "Let's figure out how we feel about each other", Clinton asks their mutual-crush how she feels about them both.

Which kind of comes across as "After Elliot opens up to him and trusts him, even going so far as to set up a pseudo-date, Clinton spend that night exploring other romantic options"

It's not rational, but it's not unrealistically irrational either.

[Eurus]

He didn't, but Elliot feels kind of like he did.

Elliot opened up to Clinton, and on the night that's supposed to be "Let's figure out how we feel about each other", Clinton asks their mutual-crush how she feels about them both.

Which kind of comes across as "After Elliot opens up to him and trusts him, even going so far as to set up a pseudo-date, Clinton spend that night exploring other romantic options"

It's not rational, but it's not unrealistically irrational either.

Yeah, I agree. Clinton didn't do anything that was seriously terrible, but it was... tactless, maybe. Impulsive, definitely unwise. Elliot is obviously conflicted here; he's not yelling at Clinton, he's saying "I feel like he kind of violated my trust". Which is fair enough, yeah, it's easy to see how he would feel in that situation like it was a bad thing even if rationally it probably wasn't. Elliot's presumably trying to process all of this, figure out how he feels and how he should feel, and reconcile them. And Clinton's too tipsy to think about much of anything right now, but he'll probably go through the same thing tomorrow.

[hungrycrow]

Part of this is that Elliot doesn't have sympathetic audience vision. He's only getting the cliffnotes version of what happened, which doesn't paint Clinton in a very good light.

But really I think Elliot is right. If Clinton was seriously exploring romantic feelings for Elliot, his first impulse on seeing Brun wouldn't have been to ask about her feelings towards him.

[SaintRidley]

Makes me wish Jeph hadn't straight up ruled out a polyamorous thing right away, because if that were in play, seriously exploring romantic feelings for one really shouldn't be an issue while seriously exploring romantic feelings for the other.

[Mechalich]

Part of this is that Elliot doesn't have sympathetic audience vision. He's only getting the cliffnotes version of what happened, which doesn't paint Clinton in a very good light.

But really I think Elliot is right. If Clinton was seriously exploring romantic feelings for Elliot, his first impulse on seeing Brun wouldn't have been to ask about her feelings towards him.

I generally think that if you're only at the 'let's hang out and see, oh, and it's cool if I'm still technically working while we do that' stage, you aren't "seriously exploring romantic feelings" and you certainly don't have any sort of claim to exclusivity.

It's fairly clear that Elliot crushes harder than Clinton (than most people in the comic, honestly, he has a history of carrying torches but not acting on them) and he's consequently built up expectations to a level that Clinton doesn't presently share and also probably desires to enter into a serious relationship with far greater intensity than Clinton presently does. The current comic also makes it fairly clear that Elliot is actually pretty self-aware about this, but just can't help it. Which is frankly pretty normal.

[Wraith]

I generally think that if you're only at the 'let's hang out and see, oh, and it's cool if I'm still technically working while we do that' stage, you aren't "seriously exploring romantic feelings" and you certainly don't have any sort of claim to exclusivity.

This is exactly what I was thinking about the situation, and you have voiced it a lot better than I was able to.

Elliot is notably shy, and he's at work - it's going to be hard for Clinton to figure out exactly how he feels about his potential first gay relationship if the "exploration" phase is half-hearted and incomplete.

For him to ask Brun about it while on said 'date' is blunt of him, but not wrong per say. He doesn't know how he feels about Elliot, and Elliot isn't very forthcoming, so I don't think it was wrong of his to rule out a relationship with Brun before dedicating himself to a more complicated and possibly less assured attempt with Elliot. He could have phrased his revelation more gently, but it was pertinent information to both of them.

That Elliot seems to have had his feelings hurt not just by Clinton being unsure but by being told that Brun isn't interested in him either, suggests that he still harbours feelings for her and was (up until about 5 minutes ago) in the same position as Clinton - feeling out one relationship, still curious about the other. So it's a little bit unfair of him to complain that Clinton had ruled out another relationship just because he himself hadn't done so and was still on the fence between the two.

Essentially, both are in the wrong - Clinton for getting drunk and being blunt, and Elliot for being too sensitive and a little bit naïve. Ah, romance!

[eee]

OK, Brun, now think about having sex with both of them at once. How's that?

[hungrycrow]

I think a good takeaway is that a date where one person is drunk and the other is at work is a terrible idea for a first date. That's the kind of date you have when you've already worked out what your relationship is.

[Keltest]

"He's only going out with me because i'm also interested in going out with him!" seems like a really petty complaint when you put it that way, yeah.

[Wraith]

OK, Brun, now think about having sex with both of them at once. How's that?

Not having sex with them, just being there while they have sex. Spectating, if you will. Or possibly supervising, depending on your preferences.

Autistic, neuro-atypical, asexual, aromantic, bi, whatever labels might apply; all is as dust before the almighty slash fic.

[Eurus]

I think a good takeaway is that a date where one person is drunk and the other is at work is a terrible idea for a first date. That's the kind of date you have when you've already worked out what your relationship is.

That's my main takeaway from this too, honestly.

Not having sex with them, just being there while they have sex. Spectating, if you will. Or possibly supervising, depending on your preferences.

Autistic, neuro-atypical, asexual, aromantic, bi, whatever labels might apply; all is as dust before the almighty slash fic.

Refereeing, maybe?

[Wraith]

Refereeing, maybe?

I've heard of casual sex, so it stands to reason that there must therefore be ranked, competitive sex also.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Elliot has definitely been holding this candle a lot longer than Clinton has... but the main issue here is that Elliot seems mostly okay with the idea of being attracted to another male, while Clinton is still acclimatising to it, despite his demonstrable interest.

As such, Elliot is probably looking at it in terms of a serious date whereas Clinton is treating it as more casual, which means a disparity of expectations. Brun is a factor that elevates this divide, but it's more or less kind of built in at the moment.

I think Clinton and Elliot should have looked at a more private scenario too approach and discuss this... Clinton was certainly tactless, but his expectations don't match Elliot's, due to his differing perspective.

[Max_Killjoy]

I think Elliot is assuming that Clinton was specifically asking about Elliot.

Also, Brun just shot down any of the speculation along the lines of participation...

[Wraith]

Elliot having 5-10 minute conversation about his love life and potential prospects while a line of people are impatiently waiting for him to let them in; If that's not a good example of why he shouldn't have tried a 'date' with Clinton while at work - focusing on one thing causes a mess to be made of the other - then I don't know what is.

Also, I like Sarcastic-Bot; She doesn't have any time for pathetic meatbag problems and I respect that.

[Iruka]

Well that escalated quickly.

[Willie the Duck]

But predictably.

[Radar]

It's not like it does not happen in real life often enough.

[VoxRationis]

Does it happen in real life? I was under the impression that such activity was just a genre convention of TV, like people having access to the rooftops of apartment buildings or the income of a single earner with no higher education supporting a mortgage, a spouse, and several dependents.

[Wraith]

That two people who haven't seen each other in a couple of years decide to catch up and it goes so well that they spontaneously end up in bed together?

I mean, it's not quite as outlandish as the 'Friends' characters individually being the most toxic of relationships in all of TV and yet still somehow being referred to as 'Friends', but I can't say that its ever happened to me so perhaps it could be anecdotal?

[Radar]

Does it happen in real life? I was under the impression that such activity was just a genre convention of TV, like people having access to the rooftops of apartment buildings or the income of a single earner with no higher education supporting a mortgage, a spouse, and several dependents.

Well... we know Renee treats sex pretty casually, so while we do not know much about Dan it really is not that weird they ended up in bed. Especially if things went really well on the date. It's not like it happens to everyone all the time, but it is not beyond reason. Random hook-ups do happen, so I do not see, why something potentially more serious could not.

To clarify: "often enough" is not the same as "often". If I messed up the phrasing, the point was that it is not an improbable development.

edit: concerning "Friends" I think Hugh Laurie summed it the best in this scene.

[Iruka]

Does it happen in real life? I was under the impression that such activity was just a genre convention of TV, like people having access to the rooftops of apartment buildings or the income of a single earner with no higher education supporting a mortgage, a spouse, and several dependents.

It does happen, but as far as I know, much less frequently than TV would have you believe.