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  1. - Top - End - #241
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    I'm just here thinking... there's no way Mr. Ellicott-Chatham actually wrote that letter himself. I'm sure the sentiments are his, but for how eloquent and to the point it is, I'm like 99% certain the actual phrasing came from Station.
    "'But there's still such a lot to be done...'
    YES. THERE ALWAYS IS."

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    I mean, the cynic in me is going "AIs can live without bodies, just on server farms. Meanwhile, we aren't properly socializing a dozen things that humans can't live without. So.... get in line, toaster."
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
    "

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I mean, the cynic in me is going "AIs can live without bodies, just on server farms. Meanwhile, we aren't properly socializing a dozen things that humans can't live without. So.... get in line, toaster."
    Thats actually a very fair point. A chassis is a perk, not a requirement for AIs. It would be like providing human ex cons with a car after getting out of jail. Sure it may be an 04 jalopy but its still a luxury item. So demanding that instead you get a reliable new or at least newish car because its unfair for the ex con to be responsible for keeping it running themselves seems odd. We also have, I believe, heard of many jobs ais can do while disembodied so its not like they cant then earn the money to get a body for themselves. So even if they have a reason for why they should have a body, its something they theoretically, should be able to provide for themselves with effort. But thats going deep into unknown territory as to how the setting works so no way to be sure.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Thats actually a very fair point. A chassis is a perk, not a requirement for AIs. It would be like providing human ex cons with a car after getting out of jail. Sure it may be an 04 jalopy but its still a luxury item. So demanding that instead you get a reliable new or at least newish car because its unfair for the ex con to be responsible for keeping it running themselves seems odd. We also have, I believe, heard of many jobs ais can do while disembodied so its not like they cant then earn the money to get a body for themselves. So even if they have a reason for why they should have a body, its something they theoretically, should be able to provide for themselves with effort. But thats going deep into unknown territory as to how the setting works so no way to be sure.
    IIRC, May's situation is different, however, because she's not allowed to do many of the data-heavy jobs that disembodied AIs do, due to the nature of her conviction.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Sure, but that makes her an exception, not an institutional problem.
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
    "

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Sure, but that makes her an exception, not an institutional problem.
    Eh, I wouldn't be surprised if most robot-jail attendees are disqualified from the server-farm type jobs. You wouldn't want an AI who mugged somebody doing stock market trades or managing a nuclear reactor.

    AI worldbuilding in the QCverse is a mess anyway.
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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    IIRC, May's situation is different, however, because she's not allowed to do many of the data-heavy jobs that disembodied AIs do, due to the nature of her conviction.
    Remember how she was introduced? She was introduced as a holographic AI assistant type thing for Dale through his google glasses or whatever. I cant remember the full details if any were given about how she went from being disembodied to on dales doorstep looking for a place to stay but that was a job she didnt need a body for. Oh sure her personality made that a very bad idea for a job for her personally, but it showed there WERE jobs out there for her that didnt require a chassis. It wouldnt surprise me if there are all sorts of jobs along those lines. Ones that involve human interaction without a body. As one example off the top of my head, a cortana style setup where she is a projected image connected to a company. Sort of a humanoid interface with a computer system.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    For some reason i have a vague recollection of her saying that while she could probably get a job like that, her experiences in Robot Jail left her pretty deeply uncomfortable with an entirely out of body experience.

    Does anybody else remember this, or am i just crazy?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    I think I remember May also refusing Momo's old body, although I don't think it would have improved her employability much.
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  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    That wasn't a job. That was part of her prison sentence, I think? Something about being socialized.
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
    "

  11. - Top - End - #251
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    For some reason i have a vague recollection of her saying that while she could probably get a job like that, her experiences in Robot Jail left her pretty deeply uncomfortable with an entirely out of body experience.

    Does anybody else remember this, or am i just crazy?
    You're right. Being locked in a virtual cell within a server left her "a little bit claustrophobic nowadays", which is why she took the holographic helper gig; it was akin to community service to prove that she could behave and be let out into a corporeal body, or something.
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  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Ok, maybe I'm in the minority here but I think that letter actually does not help Roko's case at all, in fact it might be counterproductive.

    I'm reminded of Ned Starks words "Everything before the word "but" doesn't count". In this case the "however".

    She presents this letter to the local people responsible for body distribution or something and they'll go "Well, if there's a larger law in the making, we best wait till that passed before we make any local laws/changes" and shut her down. If he had stopped before the However though, it might have been a bit different. Maybe not but at least they wouldn't have the reason to turn her away already delivered to them in the very letter.

    Also... Isn't Roko's client actually May, and not all of AI-kind? Why did she stop getting a body for May specifically and now tries to change the law? Heck, she knows Winslow, Hanners and now also Hanner's dad. Each of them could snap their finger, buy a Super Deluxe Ultra Awesome model of any line and would not notice the drop in their bank account (maybe not Winslow, but he could easily ask Hanners to do it), and likely even deduct it from taxes. And it wouldn't need to be anything fancy like that either, a base model would suffice. She could have tried to convince Munroe to "start small and give one chassis to this disadvantaged AI".
    Or start a damn GoFundMe. That would still be better for her client than what she's wasting her time on right now.

    Of course, I know I'll be proven wrong, because in QC verse that law will pass through all channels in like 3 days, no protests or opposition to it, no "Where do we get the money for it?" and woohoo, next week she'll have a new body.

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    Ok, maybe I'm in the minority here but I think that letter actually does not help Roko's case at all, in fact it might be counterproductive.

    I'm reminded of Ned Starks words "Everything before the word "but" doesn't count". In this case the "however".

    She presents this letter to the local people responsible for body distribution or something and they'll go "Well, if there's a larger law in the making, we best wait till that passed before we make any local laws/changes" and shut her down. If he had stopped before the However though, it might have been a bit different. Maybe not but at least they wouldn't have the reason to turn her away already delivered to them in the very letter.
    The people responsible for body distribution were never going to help them, precisely because the law isn't actually on their side. Changing the law, or establishing that AIs have some right to a functional body was what needed to happen institutionally. But that's just way beyond what Roko's little office can realistically handle. Or yeah, she could have just tried to raise money for May specifically, without getting the government involved.

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    Also... Isn't Roko's client actually May, and not all of AI-kind? Why did she stop getting a body for May specifically and now tries to change the law? Heck, she knows Winslow, Hanners and now also Hanner's dad. Each of them could snap their finger, buy a Super Deluxe Ultra Awesome model of any line and would not notice the drop in their bank account (maybe not Winslow, but he could easily ask Hanners to do it), and likely even deduct it from taxes. And it wouldn't need to be anything fancy like that either, a base model would suffice. She could have tried to convince Munroe to "start small and give one chassis to this disadvantaged AI".
    Or start a damn GoFundMe. That would still be better for her client than what she's wasting her time on right now.
    Well, May herself, out of some sort of bizarrely principled objection that really doesn't make sense for a character who's primary crime was grand theft, but whatever, has steadfastly refused to let anyone just buy her a better body or even loan her the money to buy one and thereby solve her specific problem (note that this makes her taking discounted repairs from Faye and Bubbles massively hypocritical). Of course, this represents a massive distortion of the overall problem because May's situation is supposed to be a 'niche case of a niche case' (comic 4173), which is exactly the kind of crack in the system that some well-placed philanthropy could solve by setting up an endowment for some grants or zero-interest loans or just buying a few hundred durable bodies outright.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  15. - Top - End - #255
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Well, May herself, out of some sort of bizarrely principled objection that really doesn't make sense for a character who's primary crime was grand theft, but whatever, has steadfastly refused to let anyone just buy her a better body or even loan her the money to buy one and thereby solve her specific problem (note that this makes her taking discounted repairs from Faye and Bubbles massively hypocritical). Of course, this represents a massive distortion of the overall problem because May's situation is supposed to be a 'niche case of a niche case' (comic 4173), which is exactly the kind of crack in the system that some well-placed philanthropy could solve by setting up an endowment for some grants or zero-interest loans or just buying a few hundred durable bodies outright.
    May is uncomfortable with the idea of her friends and/or acquaintances simply giving her charity for nothing. Its not necessarily the free part that bothers her, its the followup of "and then i have to continue to interact with the people who i got it from."
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    There is also the fact that there is a difference between "Here, have a new car for free!" And "Here, we can fix your car for a discounted price!" Its a matter of scale. If someone offered me a cookie I would be pleasantly happy and thankful. If that same person offered me a 24 oz prime rib steak with a lobster tail I would be a bit more anxious about accepting.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    The people responsible for body distribution were never going to help them, precisely because the law isn't actually on their side. Changing the law, or establishing that AIs have some right to a functional body was what needed to happen institutionally. But that's just way beyond what Roko's little office can realistically handle. Or yeah, she could have just tried to raise money for May specifically, without getting the government involved.
    Is healthcare for humans in QC-world socialized? I don't recall anybody fretting about medical costs, which seems like it should be a rich source of jokes and/or ham-fisted social commentary among the pool of low-income slackers, students, and self-employed people that makes up most of the QC cast. If yes, then this might have gone beyond 'this one AI shouldn't be stuck with a cruddy body' to 'oh yeah, we legally consider AI to be people. They should have the same rights to have their 'health' care covered as fleshpeople do. We probably should have done that sooner.' Which would entail socialized repair, maintenance, and potentially full body replacement if the existing body cannot be reasonably repaired to a satisfactory standard.

  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Dora had to wait to officially fire Faye so that insurance could cover her hospital stay, so I'd say that might point to "no."

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  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Btw AI right has one major challenge though it might not apply in the QC world. They can most likely multiply far far faster than humans if they/their makers want making any right that scales with their numbers (from the power to vote to material assistance) possibly a problem.

    About this last strip solving anything, realistically any such initiative would be a uphill battle likely to last years. The author could just make it work instantly of course.

  20. - Top - End - #260
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Can they? It's mentioned that AIs are 'grown' in creches run by other AIs, but how quickly do they mature? It's also entirely possible AIs regulate their own population explicitly to avoid those sorts of problems out of self-interest or altruism.
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  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Can they? It's mentioned that AIs are 'grown' in creches run by other AIs, but how quickly do they mature? It's also entirely possible AIs regulate their own population explicitly to avoid those sorts of problems out of self-interest or altruism.
    It was mentioned at one point that Momo is (was) 4 years old. This was in conversation with Sam, so it was after she'd switched chassis and been around for a while in-comic. As such, it can't take more than a year or two to incubate an AI and send them out into the world as a functional 'adult.' So at the very least the AIs mature much, much faster than humans. Also, it's probable that there no AIs in the QC universe that are much older than 30 or so. Station is likely among the very first generation of AIs (specifically referred to as 'elders' by Yay) and he cannot be many years older than Hannelore.
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  22. - Top - End - #262
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    AI worldbuilding in the QCverse is a mess anyway.
    Yay: "I know, right? I built four worlds last week, and already two of them are lifeless rocks, one is somehow flat and balanced on elephants, and one is full of sapient orbital trees!"

  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    There is also the fact that there is a difference between "Here, have a new car for free!" And "Here, we can fix your car for a discounted price!" Its a matter of scale. If someone offered me a cookie I would be pleasantly happy and thankful. If that same person offered me a 24 oz prime rib steak with a lobster tail I would be a bit more anxious about accepting.

    And if someone said "I'm going to feed you every day for free", I'd be suspicious enough to say no thank you.

    And if they said "I'm going to feed you every day, you're going to help me to feed everyone else, and anyone who refuses to take part will be a felon", I'd fight tooth and nail against it.

    There's no such thing as a free... lunch. Someone always has to pay for it.


    Purely hypothetical, of course.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2020-07-12 at 08:42 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #264
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    Btw AI right has one major challenge though it might not apply in the QC world. They can most likely multiply far far faster than humans if they/their makers want making any right that scales with their numbers (from the power to vote to material assistance) possibly a problem.

    About this last strip solving anything, realistically any such initiative would be a uphill battle likely to last years. The author could just make it work instantly of course.
    Uphill battle for years seems about right, seeing today's strip. Or at least Roko thinks so.

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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    I still say a gofundme aimed at helping pay for ex-con ais to get either a newer body, or a full refurbishment of the one they were given would be the way to go here. Its both a more local change that directly helps may, but also larger scale than just for may. And in addition it could serve as a example of how the program could work on a larger scale. Faye and Bubbles get the funding to handle the initial outlay of expenses, then profits off the future business that brings in. If it works they can use that as a template for expansion of the idea.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I still say a gofundme aimed at helping pay for ex-con ais to get either a newer body, or a full refurbishment of the one they were given would be the way to go here. Its both a more local change that directly helps may, but also larger scale than just for may. And in addition it could serve as a example of how the program could work on a larger scale. Faye and Bubbles get the funding to handle the initial outlay of expenses, then profits off the future business that brings in. If it works they can use that as a template for expansion of the idea.
    It would help if the comic could provide some sense of the total scale of the problem. Things it would be nice to know include:

    - How many AIs there actually are, embodied and otherwise, in the universe
    - What portion of AIs are embodied versus not embodied
    - Whether the number in Northampton, MA are typical or somehow skewed
    - How common criminality is among AIs compared to humans (because AIs have a vastly different hierarchy of needs there's every reason to believe these would not match)
    - What proportion of post-release AIs are averse to non-embodied existence due to the trauma of digital confinement
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    It would help if the comic could provide some sense of the total scale of the problem. Things it would be nice to know include:

    - How many AIs there actually are, embodied and otherwise, in the universe
    - What portion of AIs are embodied versus not embodied
    - Whether the number in Northampton, MA are typical or somehow skewed
    - How common criminality is among AIs compared to humans (because AIs have a vastly different hierarchy of needs there's every reason to believe these would not match)
    - What proportion of post-release AIs are averse to non-embodied existence due to the trauma of digital confinement
    Those would be good things to know, but, I'm going to bet based on past statements and outbursts that Jeph would look askance at concentrating on facts instead of "feelings" and "narrative".
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2020-07-14 at 07:05 AM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  28. - Top - End - #268
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    It would help if the comic could provide some sense of the total scale of the problem. Things it would be nice to know include:

    - How many AIs there actually are, embodied and otherwise, in the universe
    - What portion of AIs are embodied versus not embodied
    - Whether the number in Northampton, MA are typical or somehow skewed
    - How common criminality is among AIs compared to humans (because AIs have a vastly different hierarchy of needs there's every reason to believe these would not match)
    - What proportion of post-release AIs are averse to non-embodied existence due to the trauma of digital confinement
    Its also a factor of crime rates due to their internet access and opportunity. For an AI, crime may happen as fast as thought, its like how you are more likely to commit suicide if you have a gun on you than if you have to arrange to get one first. That moment when you feel the temptation the strongest, you have an easy method of accomplishing it right there so you are more likely to do so. Same thing with crime potentially. Especially stuff like the financial crime may was guilty of. She is "right there" in the internet with the ability to access the banking info she needs when the temptation is the strongest. She doesnt have to put together a plan to buy a gun and a face mask to go rob a specific branch, so there is less impediment to make her stop, think, and dismiss the idea. And we have seen impulsiveness in AIs before. Its the difference between seeing a 50 sticking out of the back pocket of some dude in front of you with no witnesses and planning to go out and mug someone. In that moment of seeing opportunity you may go for it while planning out a crime may make you stop.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  29. - Top - End - #269
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Looks like Jeph has been reading Traab's posts again.

    Its weird that a GoFundMe page or a Paypal tip-jar wasn't one of the first things set up by the AI non-profit. "We have no money, why not ask for some?" is hardly shameful or disingenuous premise for an organisation that fights for civil rights and the likes. Maybe Beepatrice and Gordon are just... that clueless?

    We've made the comparison before that an AI chassis seems to cost roughly the same as a new car - a significant amount of money, but not insurmountable even for a minimum wage/self-employed webmaster like Marigold. I feel like they could probably raise that amount of money in a fairly small amount of time, even if they didn't have a poster-child like May whose head was in serious danger of catching fire that they could use in their advertising.

    Especially now, when they can go round telling people "Hey, Dr. Chattham who invented AIs thinks they need better rights and universal body-care and is going to court to get it put into law, would you mind helping us out in the meantime?"
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  30. - Top - End - #270
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    right behind you

    Default Re: Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Looks like Jeph has been reading Traab's posts again.

    Its weird that a GoFundMe page or a Paypal tip-jar wasn't one of the first things set up by the AI non-profit. "We have no money, why not ask for some?" is hardly shameful or disingenuous premise for an organisation that fights for civil rights and the likes. Maybe Beepatrice and Gordon are just... that clueless?

    We've made the comparison before that an AI chassis seems to cost roughly the same as a new car - a significant amount of money, but not insurmountable even for a minimum wage/self-employed webmaster like Marigold. I feel like they could probably raise that amount of money in a fairly small amount of time, even if they didn't have a poster-child like May whose head was in serious danger of catching fire that they could use in their advertising.

    Especially now, when they can go round telling people "Hey, Dr. Chattham who invented AIs thinks they need better rights and universal body-care and is going to court to get it put into law, would you mind helping us out in the meantime?"
    I will be honest, I dont think they cost anywhere near as much as a new car. At most they might reach used car levels. Otherwise there is no way marigold could have brought momo to the shop and bought her a new body. New cars are like 36k nowadays or more. But I could maybe see them costing upwards of say 7k as its clearly a big hit to a persons finances but not an insurmountable one. And still beyond what someone living on minimum wage is going to be able to shell out or else roko would have bought her own by now. My car comparison was more about utility and necessity. Just like a person can survive without a car, so can an ai survive without a chassis was my basic point.

    As for the AI nonprofit, maybe there are laws in place about how you can raise funds? I have absolutely no idea how that works. For all I know it may be similar to things like benefits from the state where if you make more than x amount of money, you no longer qualify for funding from the government.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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