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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    On the other hand were I leading the Thalmor and thus they weren't complete morons, they'd waylay Ulfric on his way to the moot while simultaneously killing about half the Jarl's there then letting the information that he was an asset of theirs be known. Fresh civil war, it looks like he was late because he knew they were going to attack and there's not much he could say to dissuade people from believing it.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    On the other hand were I leading the Thalmor and thus they weren't complete morons, they'd waylay Ulfric on his way to the moot while simultaneously killing about half the Jarl's there then letting the information that he was an asset of theirs be known. Fresh civil war, it looks like he was late because he knew they were going to attack and there's not much he could say to dissuade people from believing it.
    Much, much too risky. You'd need to muster the entire Thalmor strength from across the whole province to attempt something on such a large scale, and then you're hoping to Oblivion that none of the Jarls, the Blades, the Dragonborn, the Stormcloaks, the Penitus Oculatus, or anyone else with an interest in your doings, would notice what you were doing... because if any one of them twigged, they'd all put aside their differences (briefly) for the chance to wipe out your entire force at a stroke.

    And then how are you planning to "let it be known" that he's an "asset"? Leave a dossier on one of the corpses? Yeah, that'll be convincing. NOT.
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  3. - Top - End - #573
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    And then how are you planning to "let it be known" that he's an "asset"? Leave a dossier on one of the corpses? Yeah, that'll be convincing. NOT.
    Well, if they were thinking far enough ahead they could just make sure you read that information when you're infiltrating the Thalmor embassy. I believe it's possible to miss it as things stand, but if you definitely read it, and the Dragonborn, hero of the land, were to come out saying Ulfric is a Thalmor asset, well, a lot of people are going to believe him. Some won't, of course, but you need two sides to make a civil war anyway, so that's fine!

  4. - Top - End - #574
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I believe it's possible to miss it as things stand, but if you definitely read it, and the Dragonborn, hero of the land, were to come out saying Ulfric is a Thalmor asset, well, a lot of people are going to believe him. Some won't, of course, but you need two sides to make a civil war anyway, so that's fine!
    I read it, and it's really clear that "asset" is being used in a technical sense that means nothing more than "it may be possible to manipulate this guy". It also says "Emissary level approval", implying that manipulation is a delicate business that could easily go badly wrong.

    That dossier tells us much more about how the Thalmor work, and how they look at people, than about Ulfric himself. I don't see anything discreditable to him in there.

    I also note, you're suggesting a scenario in which the Dragonborn is manipulated into serving the Thalmor's purpose. Making the Dragonborn, also, a Thalmor asset.
    Last edited by veti; 2020-12-02 at 03:18 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #575
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    I read it, and it's really clear that "asset" is being used in a technical sense that means nothing more than "it may be possible to manipulate this guy".
    Again, we're talking a scenario where the Thalmor thought ahead. Planting evidence that Ulfric is their man would be completely within possibility in that case, and heck, you had to infiltrate the most heavily-guarded Thalmor stronghold in Skyrim to get it, so that gives it even more verisimilitude.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Again, we're talking a scenario where the Thalmor thought ahead. Planting evidence that Ulfric is their man would be completely within possibility in that case, and heck, you had to infiltrate the most heavily-guarded Thalmor stronghold in Skyrim to get it, so that gives it even more verisimilitude.
    And how are the Thalmor supposed to know that the Dragonborn is planning to infiltrate their embassy?
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    And how are the Thalmor supposed to know that the Dragonborn is planning to infiltrate their embassy?
    I don't know how often I have to keep re-iterating that this is a far more competent and knowledgable Thalmor we're talking about rather than the dimwits actually in the game...

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Still mad we couldn't do anything with that dossier, by the way.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-12-02 at 11:12 AM.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Still mad we couldn't do anything with that dossier, by the way.
    What would we do with it? The Imperials already know Ulfric is a fool whose actions are just helping the Thalmor in the long run and are trying to eliminate him, and the Stormcloaks would just call it imperial lies, because Ulfric's agenda is "obviously" anti-Thalmor.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    There is something odd about that Dossier. It says that an exception to keeping an hands-off approach to the civil war had to be made in Helgen to keep Ulfric alive, but also that the Thalmor don't know what the deal with the dragons really is. Did the Thalmor whisk Ulfric away from Helgen? Were they planning to rescue him, hadn't the dragons attacked? And how would they have kept it quiet?
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    What would we do with it? The Imperials already know Ulfric is a fool whose actions are just helping the Thalmor in the long run and are trying to eliminate him, and the Stormcloaks would just call it imperial lies, because Ulfric's agenda is "obviously" anti-Thalmor.
    Bring it up to Ulfric to try to convince him he's being used*. Bring it up to Tullius and Elisif so they can strengthen their position and convince undecided Nords (such as Balgruuf) to side with them. Use it during the negotiations to get rid of the Thalmor without having to cede land.

    This is an important piece of intelligence it potential uses should at least be discuted by relevant characters.

    *And inform him that he was not responsible for the fall of the Imperial City.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-12-02 at 11:42 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #582
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    There is something odd about that Dossier. It says that an exception to keeping an hands-off approach to the civil war had to be made in Helgen to keep Ulfric alive, but also that the Thalmor don't know what the deal with the dragons really is. Did the Thalmor whisk Ulfric away from Helgen? Were they planning to rescue him, hadn't the dragons attacked? And how would they have kept it quiet?
    They may have led other Stormcloaks to Helgen to stage a rescue attempt, or possibly summoned an Atronach or something to disrupt the execution. In an extreme case, Elenwen may have had orders to go "rogue" and pretend to be a sleeper agent for the Stormcloaks. Then she goes back home to Alinor, safely out of the political eye of Skyrim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Bring it up to Ulfric to try to convince him he's being used*. Bring it up to Tullius and Elisif so they can strengthen their position and convince undecided Nords (such as Balgruuf) to side with them. Use it during the negotiations to get rid of the Thalmor without having to cede land.

    This is an important piece of intelligence it potential uses should at least be discuted by relevant characters.

    *And inform him that he was not responsible for the fall of the Imperial City.
    Ulfric obviously doesnt care that the Thalmor want the civil war to continue, because its A: transparently obvious that they benefit from it, which is why there are imperial siding jarls in the first place, and B: because he's already placing his own personal ambitions over the good of the people, even if his propaganda wants to obfuscate that. Ulfric is making a personal power play here, not working to move against the Thalmor in a long game plan.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2020-12-02 at 11:46 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #583
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I don't know how often I have to keep re-iterating that this is a far more competent and knowledgable Thalmor we're talking about rather than the dimwits actually in the game...
    Being competent and knowledgeable does not make the Thalmor all-knowing. The only people who knew that the infiltration was going to happen were the Dragonborn, Delphine and Malborn, none of whom were Thalmor agents.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Being competent and knowledgeable does not make the Thalmor all-knowing. The only people who knew that the infiltration was going to happen were the Dragonborn, Delphine and Malborn, none of whom were Thalmor agents.
    They dont have to know the Dragonborn, specifically, is after their stuff. Its not at all outlandish for them to be prepared for Stormcloak and Imperial spies alike to be making attempts at getting their stuff all the time.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Ulfric obviously doesnt care that the Thalmor want the civil war to continue, because its A: transparently obvious that they benefit from it, which is why there are imperial siding jarls in the first place, and B: because he's already placing his own personal ambitions over the good of the people, even if his propaganda wants to obfuscate that. Ulfric is making a personal power play here, not working to move against the Thalmor in a long game plan.
    While I'm no fan of Ulfric's I don't believe that's a fair assessment. Jarls don't side with the Empire out of long-term future war with the Thalmors considerations, or at least not solely out of that. A good deal of them do so because they consider the Empire to be the legitimate government of Skyrim as the duel to the death thing was an antiquated tradition.

    As for Ulfric, while he is certainly power-hungry, I think he is completely earnest in his belief that he is doing what's best for Skyrim and that the nord could eventually stand to the thalmor on their own. Ulfric thinks he was responsible for the fall of the Imperial City and therefore the eventual ratifiction of the White-Gold Concordat. That is why he is so adamant on fighting off the Thalmor and sees the Empire negotiating as a treason. He fully intends to arm Skyrim to the max and attack the Summerset Isles to atone for his failure.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Being competent and knowledgeable does not make the Thalmor all-knowing. The only people who knew that the infiltration was going to happen were the Dragonborn, Delphine and Malborn, none of whom were Thalmor agents.
    Or were they? Dun dun dunnnn!!! (it would have made for a good story, however).
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Being competent and knowledgeable does not make the Thalmor all-knowing. The only people who knew that the infiltration was going to happen were the Dragonborn, Delphine and Malborn, none of whom were Thalmor agents.
    Since I'm talking entirely in hypothetical terms here, a more intelligent group of Thalmor wouldn't have employed someone like Malborn who lost his entire family to a Thalmor attack, or else they'd keep a much closer eye on him than they did. Also, how did Delphine actually get the message to Malborn that the infiltration was going to take place? She certainly didn't visit the Embassy personally and talk to him about it, so there's either a physical message being sent there, which could be intercepted, or some sort of meeting outside the embassy, which a Thalmor organisation not so convinced of their own superiority might have spied on. There are certainly ways they could have learned this, given we're talking about Triaxx's entirely hypothetical scenario where Ulfric is delayed on his way to the Moot and a bunch of jarls who are there get killed, and the Thalmor need a way to pin that on Ulfric.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    There is something odd about that Dossier. It says that an exception to keeping an hands-off approach to the civil war had to be made in Helgen to keep Ulfric alive, but also that the Thalmor don't know what the deal with the dragons really is. Did the Thalmor whisk Ulfric away from Helgen? Were they planning to rescue him, hadn't the dragons attacked? And how would they have kept it quiet?
    Or, possibly, they thought that having Ulfric executed would lead to the galvanization of the Stormcloaks, by making him a martyr.

    The war we see in Skyrim is, more or less, a cold war. Sure, you've got armed camps on each side, but until the Dragonborn gets going, there's no real combat going on between them, and certainly nothing above what you'd usually see in border skirmishes between Jarls.

    But have the Imperials execute Ulfric Stormcloak? Without a trial? Kneeling in the dirt, tied like a pig? That would get all of the Stormcloak Jarls angry, and might boil it from a cold war to a hot, which would give the Thalmor and even freer hand than they have.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Were they planning to rescue him, hadn't the dragons attacked? And how would they have kept it quiet?
    IIRC Elenwen is at Helgen trying to convince Tulius to hand the prisoners over to her. So...yes. As for keeping it quiet, maybe just murder everyone who isn’t Ulfric once they’re out of view of town. Then lock him up somewhere easy to break into and leak his whereabouts to his followers. Even if Ulfric tells his minions the Thalmor got him rescued on purpose, what would that accomplish for him?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Bring it up to Ulfric to try to convince him he's being used*. Bring it up to Tullius and Elisif so they can strengthen their position and convince undecided Nords (such as Balgruuf) to side with them. Use it during the negotiations to get rid of the Thalmor without having to cede land.

    This is an important piece of intelligence it potential uses should at least be discuted by relevant characters.

    *And inform him that he was not responsible for the fall of the Imperial City.
    Second all of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    They dont have to know the Dragonborn, specifically, is after their stuff. Its not at all outlandish for them to be prepared for Stormcloak and Imperial spies alike to be making attempts at getting their stuff all the time.
    Altmer culture is highly perfectionist though. A high-ranking Thalmor official setting out to fail on purpose by letting someone break into their inner sanctum in the hopes that it will be useful later on is pushing it. They’d want more control over the process of feeding their enemies information than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Since I'm talking entirely in hypothetical terms here, a more intelligent group of Thalmor wouldn't have employed someone like Malborn who lost his entire family to a Thalmor attack, or else they'd keep a much closer eye on him than they did.
    Give the existing Thalmor some credit. Malborn wasn’t his real name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Give the existing Thalmor some credit. Malborn wasn’t his real name.
    When you've killed as many people as the Thalmor, it's not realistic to expect to be able to keep track of all their friends and relatives for the rest of time. I mean, even with modern database technology, that would be a big ask. Without Facebook - not a chance.

    Being a genocidal evil empire isn't as easy as it looks, you know. They do their best to project a facade of all-knowing, all-powerful inscrutability, but mostly it's just petty vindictiveness. Never let an enemy or a slight or insult go unpunished, but if someone actually tries, they can hide from you pretty effectively. (For more than 20 years, in the case of Esbern and Delphine.)
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    When you've killed as many people as the Thalmor, it's not realistic to expect to be able to keep track of all their friends and relatives for the rest of time. I mean, even with modern database technology, that would be a big ask. Without Facebook - not a chance.

    Being a genocidal evil empire isn't as easy as it looks, you know. They do their best to project a facade of all-knowing, all-powerful inscrutability, but mostly it's just petty vindictiveness. Never let an enemy or a slight or insult go unpunished, but if someone actually tries, they can hide from you pretty effectively. (For more than 20 years, in the case of Esbern and Delphine.)
    Hear, hear. This is especially true considering Skyrim is really far from Valenwood. Even if Malborn were using his real name, it'd be surprising if anybody at the Ambassy had recognized it as they have no reason to know about the details of the going-ons in Valenwood. Doubly so since the Thalmor is doing its best to cover it up and so would avoid documenting it as much as feasable.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Eh, it's not that far if you have decently powerful mages. We don't see it much in the games anymore, but the lore, including the novels, still have mages teleporting across half the continent.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Eh, it's not that far if you have decently powerful mages. We don't see it much in the games anymore, but the lore, including the novels, still have mages teleporting across half the continent.
    Sure, but they're not going to carry file cabinets with them.
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    Summon Filing Cabinet, powerful, versatile and always filled with exactly the files you need. Get it from your local Archmage today!
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Summon Filing Cabinet, powerful, versatile and always filled with exactly the files you need. Get it from your local Archmage today!
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    It's possible that the Thalmor simply don't have the people to enact effective surveillance in Skyrim. Law is enforced by city guards. If the jarls don't collaborate, they just don't have the means to identify "suspects". They seem concentrated on actively dangerous targets like the two Blades, who already are at war with them.

    EDIT: The whole Stormcloak territory should serve as a safe haven for the enemies of the Thalmor, and the Thalmor are OK with that. So I think that they are just playing a different game against the Empire, rather than against small-time agents and guerrillas.
    Last edited by Vinyadan; 2020-12-04 at 08:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Sure, but they're not going to carry file cabinets with them.
    Of course not, that's for peons not Archmagi.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    I think I'm getting burnt out on Oblivion. I'm currently speed-running portals... go in with an Invisibility spell loaded up, run past all opposition, grab the stone, and leave. I have about 300,000 gold or so, and that's after buying all the houses and maxxing them out. I suppose I could buy horses? I sometimes buy stuff to make potions, too, but I also sell a lot of ingredients... anything 1 pound or over doesn't matter, and I frequently eat tons of ingredients while adventuring to free up a little bit more space.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I think I'm getting burnt out on Oblivion. I'm currently speed-running portals... go in with an Invisibility spell loaded up, run past all opposition, grab the stone, and leave. I have about 300,000 gold or so, and that's after buying all the houses and maxxing them out. I suppose I could buy horses? I sometimes buy stuff to make potions, too, but I also sell a lot of ingredients... anything 1 pound or over doesn't matter, and I frequently eat tons of ingredients while adventuring to free up a little bit more space.
    As much as the gates were an interesting idea, they REALLY needed more variety than just dirt, rocks and lava.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    As much as the gates were an interesting idea, they REALLY needed more variety than just dirt, rocks and lava.
    I sometimes entered an Oblivion gate to even find all lever already activated and the bridges already extended. I think it was literally the same location of a previous gate, with respawned enemies.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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