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2020-12-01, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
On the other hand were I leading the Thalmor and thus they weren't complete morons, they'd waylay Ulfric on his way to the moot while simultaneously killing about half the Jarl's there then letting the information that he was an asset of theirs be known. Fresh civil war, it looks like he was late because he knew they were going to attack and there's not much he could say to dissuade people from believing it.
I am trying out LPing. Check out my channel here: Triaxx2
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2020-12-02, 01:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Much, much too risky. You'd need to muster the entire Thalmor strength from across the whole province to attempt something on such a large scale, and then you're hoping to Oblivion that none of the Jarls, the Blades, the Dragonborn, the Stormcloaks, the Penitus Oculatus, or anyone else with an interest in your doings, would notice what you were doing... because if any one of them twigged, they'd all put aside their differences (briefly) for the chance to wipe out your entire force at a stroke.
And then how are you planning to "let it be known" that he's an "asset"? Leave a dossier on one of the corpses? Yeah, that'll be convincing. NOT."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2020-12-02, 02:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Well, if they were thinking far enough ahead they could just make sure you read that information when you're infiltrating the Thalmor embassy. I believe it's possible to miss it as things stand, but if you definitely read it, and the Dragonborn, hero of the land, were to come out saying Ulfric is a Thalmor asset, well, a lot of people are going to believe him. Some won't, of course, but you need two sides to make a civil war anyway, so that's fine!
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2020-12-02, 03:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
I read it, and it's really clear that "asset" is being used in a technical sense that means nothing more than "it may be possible to manipulate this guy". It also says "Emissary level approval", implying that manipulation is a delicate business that could easily go badly wrong.
That dossier tells us much more about how the Thalmor work, and how they look at people, than about Ulfric himself. I don't see anything discreditable to him in there.
I also note, you're suggesting a scenario in which the Dragonborn is manipulated into serving the Thalmor's purpose. Making the Dragonborn, also, a Thalmor asset.Last edited by veti; 2020-12-02 at 03:18 AM.
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2020-12-02, 06:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Again, we're talking a scenario where the Thalmor thought ahead. Planting evidence that Ulfric is their man would be completely within possibility in that case, and heck, you had to infiltrate the most heavily-guarded Thalmor stronghold in Skyrim to get it, so that gives it even more verisimilitude.
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2020-12-02, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2020-12-02, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-12-02, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Still mad we couldn't do anything with that dossier, by the way.
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-12-02 at 11:12 AM.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-12-02, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-12-02, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
There is something odd about that Dossier. It says that an exception to keeping an hands-off approach to the civil war had to be made in Helgen to keep Ulfric alive, but also that the Thalmor don't know what the deal with the dragons really is. Did the Thalmor whisk Ulfric away from Helgen? Were they planning to rescue him, hadn't the dragons attacked? And how would they have kept it quiet?
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2020-12-02, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Bring it up to Ulfric to try to convince him he's being used*. Bring it up to Tullius and Elisif so they can strengthen their position and convince undecided Nords (such as Balgruuf) to side with them. Use it during the negotiations to get rid of the Thalmor without having to cede land.
This is an important piece of intelligence it potential uses should at least be discuted by relevant characters.
*And inform him that he was not responsible for the fall of the Imperial City.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-12-02 at 11:42 AM.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-12-02, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
They may have led other Stormcloaks to Helgen to stage a rescue attempt, or possibly summoned an Atronach or something to disrupt the execution. In an extreme case, Elenwen may have had orders to go "rogue" and pretend to be a sleeper agent for the Stormcloaks. Then she goes back home to Alinor, safely out of the political eye of Skyrim.
Ulfric obviously doesnt care that the Thalmor want the civil war to continue, because its A: transparently obvious that they benefit from it, which is why there are imperial siding jarls in the first place, and B: because he's already placing his own personal ambitions over the good of the people, even if his propaganda wants to obfuscate that. Ulfric is making a personal power play here, not working to move against the Thalmor in a long game plan.Last edited by Keltest; 2020-12-02 at 11:46 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-12-02, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2020-12-02, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-12-02, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
While I'm no fan of Ulfric's I don't believe that's a fair assessment. Jarls don't side with the Empire out of long-term future war with the Thalmors considerations, or at least not solely out of that. A good deal of them do so because they consider the Empire to be the legitimate government of Skyrim as the duel to the death thing was an antiquated tradition.
As for Ulfric, while he is certainly power-hungry, I think he is completely earnest in his belief that he is doing what's best for Skyrim and that the nord could eventually stand to the thalmor on their own. Ulfric thinks he was responsible for the fall of the Imperial City and therefore the eventual ratifiction of the White-Gold Concordat. That is why he is so adamant on fighting off the Thalmor and sees the Empire negotiating as a treason. He fully intends to arm Skyrim to the max and attack the Summerset Isles to atone for his failure.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-12-02, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-12-02, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Since I'm talking entirely in hypothetical terms here, a more intelligent group of Thalmor wouldn't have employed someone like Malborn who lost his entire family to a Thalmor attack, or else they'd keep a much closer eye on him than they did. Also, how did Delphine actually get the message to Malborn that the infiltration was going to take place? She certainly didn't visit the Embassy personally and talk to him about it, so there's either a physical message being sent there, which could be intercepted, or some sort of meeting outside the embassy, which a Thalmor organisation not so convinced of their own superiority might have spied on. There are certainly ways they could have learned this, given we're talking about Triaxx's entirely hypothetical scenario where Ulfric is delayed on his way to the Moot and a bunch of jarls who are there get killed, and the Thalmor need a way to pin that on Ulfric.
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2020-12-02, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Or, possibly, they thought that having Ulfric executed would lead to the galvanization of the Stormcloaks, by making him a martyr.
The war we see in Skyrim is, more or less, a cold war. Sure, you've got armed camps on each side, but until the Dragonborn gets going, there's no real combat going on between them, and certainly nothing above what you'd usually see in border skirmishes between Jarls.
But have the Imperials execute Ulfric Stormcloak? Without a trial? Kneeling in the dirt, tied like a pig? That would get all of the Stormcloak Jarls angry, and might boil it from a cold war to a hot, which would give the Thalmor and even freer hand than they have.The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2020-12-02, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
IIRC Elenwen is at Helgen trying to convince Tulius to hand the prisoners over to her. So...yes. As for keeping it quiet, maybe just murder everyone who isn’t Ulfric once they’re out of view of town. Then lock him up somewhere easy to break into and leak his whereabouts to his followers. Even if Ulfric tells his minions the Thalmor got him rescued on purpose, what would that accomplish for him?
Second all of this.
Altmer culture is highly perfectionist though. A high-ranking Thalmor official setting out to fail on purpose by letting someone break into their inner sanctum in the hopes that it will be useful later on is pushing it. They’d want more control over the process of feeding their enemies information than that.
Give the existing Thalmor some credit. Malborn wasn’t his real name.
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2020-12-02, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
When you've killed as many people as the Thalmor, it's not realistic to expect to be able to keep track of all their friends and relatives for the rest of time. I mean, even with modern database technology, that would be a big ask. Without Facebook - not a chance.
Being a genocidal evil empire isn't as easy as it looks, you know. They do their best to project a facade of all-knowing, all-powerful inscrutability, but mostly it's just petty vindictiveness. Never let an enemy or a slight or insult go unpunished, but if someone actually tries, they can hide from you pretty effectively. (For more than 20 years, in the case of Esbern and Delphine.)"None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2020-12-04, 05:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Hear, hear. This is especially true considering Skyrim is really far from Valenwood. Even if Malborn were using his real name, it'd be surprising if anybody at the Ambassy had recognized it as they have no reason to know about the details of the going-ons in Valenwood. Doubly so since the Thalmor is doing its best to cover it up and so would avoid documenting it as much as feasable.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-12-04, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Eh, it's not that far if you have decently powerful mages. We don't see it much in the games anymore, but the lore, including the novels, still have mages teleporting across half the continent.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2020-12-04, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-12-04, 07:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Summon Filing Cabinet, powerful, versatile and always filled with exactly the files you need. Get it from your local Archmage today!
I am trying out LPing. Check out my channel here: Triaxx2
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2020-12-04, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-12-04, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
It's possible that the Thalmor simply don't have the people to enact effective surveillance in Skyrim. Law is enforced by city guards. If the jarls don't collaborate, they just don't have the means to identify "suspects". They seem concentrated on actively dangerous targets like the two Blades, who already are at war with them.
EDIT: The whole Stormcloak territory should serve as a safe haven for the enemies of the Thalmor, and the Thalmor are OK with that. So I think that they are just playing a different game against the Empire, rather than against small-time agents and guerrillas.Last edited by Vinyadan; 2020-12-04 at 08:27 AM.
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2020-12-04, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Of course not, that's for peons not Archmagi.
Yeah, he wants his book back.
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2020-12-09, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
I think I'm getting burnt out on Oblivion. I'm currently speed-running portals... go in with an Invisibility spell loaded up, run past all opposition, grab the stone, and leave. I have about 300,000 gold or so, and that's after buying all the houses and maxxing them out. I suppose I could buy horses? I sometimes buy stuff to make potions, too, but I also sell a lot of ingredients... anything 1 pound or over doesn't matter, and I frequently eat tons of ingredients while adventuring to free up a little bit more space.
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2020-12-09, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-12-09, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955