The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[LibraryOgre]

My new conspiracy theory /headcanon: Vigilant Tyranus is, in fact, Molag Bal. He forces the Dragonborn to kill him so that the DB is already morally compromised before picking up the mace.

Evidence - mainly, the way he accosts the DB, and tries to manipulate her, of all people, into accompanying him in his "investigation". Real Vigilants, we know, travel with at least one partner, so they don't have to beg help from random civilians.

Clue: his name. What better pseudonym could Bal pick than "tyrant"?

Head canon accepted. I am going to look at the UESP and add this, somehow.

[veti]

So, there's a mod I really, really want for Skyrim. Having thought of it, it seems such an obvious idea that I can't believe nobody's thought of it before - but I can't find it. Does anyone know if it exists?

What it does: presents an MCM menu that allows you to toggle base game quests off. For instance, you could toggle off 'A Daedra's Best Friend', and the guard and the blacksmith at Falkreath would never talk about that damn' dog, and the quest would just never start. Or if you toggle off 'Break of Dawn', that blasted beacon would never spawn. Or with 'Blood on the Ice', could simply delete the killer from the game and we could assume someone else caught him. Or - oh, you get the picture.

Well, it exists now.

After weeks of learning, days of coding and literally minutes of testing, I finally took the plunge and published my first Skyrim mod. It's for those of us serial restarters, who would like a bit less clutter in our game journals. You can find it here.

[Vinyadan]

My new conspiracy theory /headcanon: Vigilant Tyranus is, in fact, Molag Bal. He forces the Dragonborn to kill him so that the DB is already morally compromised before picking up the mace.

Evidence - mainly, the way he accosts the DB, and tries to manipulate her, of all people, into accompanying him in his "investigation". Real Vigilants, we know, travel with at least one partner, so they don't have to beg help from random civilians.

Clue: his name. What better pseudonym could Bal pick than "tyrant"?

Nice! I wish the devs had thought of this.

[factotum]

My new conspiracy theory /headcanon: Vigilant Tyranus is, in fact, Molag Bal. He forces the Dragonborn to kill him so that the DB is already morally compromised before picking up the mace.

Nice idea, although I personally don't consider killing Tyranus to be "morally compromising" considering he is, y'know, TRYING TO KILL YOU at the time.

[LibraryOgre]

Cana, the Eternal Champion, the Agent, is now also the Nerevarine, and has dispatched Dagoth Ur and the Heart of Lorkhan.

Since the class name field in Oblivion is too small, I changed my class name from "Eternal Champion" to "Nerevarine". Took the Thief sign, instead of the Atronach, this time, because I wanted the Luck bonus. Using a mod that gives me *5 on advancing stats but Luck (so I am doing a 5,5,1 strategy, not a 5,5,5), because I don't feel like carefully balancing my level ups.

As for why Cana resets between each game? My story is this: She was cursed by Jagar Tharn to never be able to enjoy that which she won. So, a year or two after she wins a game, her artifacts start to disappear in different ways, her levels and stat boosts drain away, and so on. I interpret her being an Atronach in Morrowind, but not in Oblivion, as an after-effect of the Numidium... not strictly a benefit, so it is unaffected by Tharn's curse, but a problem that subsided as the years went on (so she lost some of her vulnerability from Morrowind, and became able to regain magicka again).

Oblivion is now the only game I have not beaten; I've beaten Skyrim, but with a Khajjit.

[Resileaf]

As for why Cana resets between each game? My story is this: She was cursed by Jagar Tharn to never be able to enjoy that which she won. So, a year or two after she wins a game, her artifacts start to disappear in different ways, her levels and stat boosts drain away, and so on. I interpret her being an Atronach in Morrowind, but not in Oblivion, as an after-effect of the Numidium... not strictly a benefit, so it is unaffected by Tharn's curse, but a problem that subsided as the years went on (so she lost some of her vulnerability from Morrowind, and became able to regain magicka again).

Also jail time between each game can't help!

[LibraryOgre]

Also jail time between each game can't help!

Cana is capable of being very focused and goal-oriented, but if the world isn't on fire, she tends to get drunk and pick fights with the guards. At a bet, that's what got her kicked out of Redoran, the Fighter's Guild, the Theives' Guild, the Mage's Guild, the Morag Tong, the Tribunal Temple (though, being responsible for the death of one of the Tribunal might have had something to do with that), and the Imperial Temple...

She's now been kicked out of the Theives', Fighter's, and Mage's guilds twice, and twice out of the Imperial Cult. And I think 3 times out of the Blades.

[Fyraltari]

You're going to do Skyrim next, yes? If so, how are you going to explain Cana's inability to wear the Amulet of Kings even though she's the Last Dragonborn?

[LibraryOgre]

You're going to do Skyrim next, yes? If so, how are you going to explain Cana's inability to wear the Amulet of Kings even though she's the Last Dragonborn?

She's a Dragonborn, but she's not of Tiber Septim's line.

...But should the Dragonfires fail, and should no heir of our joined blood wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall the Empire descend into darkness...

No dragons to murder, she doesn't know she's Dragonborn. Not of Tiber's line, can't be Emperor.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

She's a Dragonborn, but she's not of Tiber Septim's line.



No dragons to murder, she doesn't know she's Dragonborn. Not of Tiber's line, can't be Emperor.

So she’s just not trying it on? Probably the easiest way to make it work. Per The Book of the Dragonborn not all the original, pre-Reman Dragonborn were even related, so not being one of Tiber’s relatives should have no bearing on whether or not the Amulet of Kings is wearable.

[LibraryOgre]

So she’s just not trying it on? Probably the easiest way to make it work. Per The Book of the Dragonborn not all the original, pre-Reman Dragonborn were even related, so not being one of Tiber’s relatives should have no bearing on whether or not the Amulet of Kings is wearable.

*shrug* She is not the one. Maybe Akatosh is mad about the Dragon Break.

[Keltest]

She's a Dragonborn, but she's not of Tiber Septim's line.



No dragons to murder, she doesn't know she's Dragonborn. Not of Tiber's line, can't be Emperor.

Its not the Septim line that matters though. Its Saint Alessia's line. The Septims were one branch, but not the only one.

Having said that, "She just doesnt even think to try it" is a perfectly passable explanation for me.

[Laughing Dog]

Questions, Mark: How are you dealing with the 2 century time-skip between Oblivion and Skyrim? Also, are you planning on doing the Shivering Isles DLC (in Oblivion)? If so, that may lead to a talking to yourself moment in Skyrim.

[Rynjin]

Questions, Mark: How are you dealing with the 2 century time-skip between Oblivion and Skyrim? Also, are you planning on doing the Shivering Isles DLC (in Oblivion)? If so, that may lead to a talking to yourself moment in Skyrim.

The timeskip shouldn't be an issue, as the Nerevarine is completely immortal.

[Keltest]

I think the most important question here, is how youre explaining the rumors of the Neravarine leading an expedition to Akavir?

[Rynjin]

I think the most important question here, is how youre explaining the rumors of the Neravarine leading an expedition to Akavir?

"I went, then I came back."

That's basically what Moon and Star does, but with more angst.

[Resileaf]

"I went, then I came back."

That's basically what Moon and Star does, but with more angst.

"Oh, hey Nerevarine, you're back early."

"Akavir's haunted."

"What?"

*Grabs a gun, starts to leave again*
"Akavir's haunted."

[LibraryOgre]

Questions, Mark: How are you dealing with the 2 century time-skip between Oblivion and Skyrim? Also, are you planning on doing the Shivering Isles DLC (in Oblivion)? If so, that may lead to a talking to yourself moment in Skyrim.

As mentioned, the Nerevarine is ageless, which helps. However, it's part of why I went with an Altmer in the first place... they can conceivably live that long, especially if given a boost by being Nerevarine (the other part was the mechanical advantage being immune to paralysis gave you in the first two games).

What happened to Cana between the White Gold Tower and the border of Skyrim? Not sure. Maybe she went to Akavir. Maybe she spent some time as Sheogorath, then passed the mantle to some other mad bastard. Maybe she went on an epic bender, and the first time she's been sober is when she sees Ralof. Maybe one day I'll get to play her in my Savage Scrolls conversion and we'll figure it out.

[Aeson]

You're going to do Skyrim next, yes? If so, how are you going to explain Cana's inability to wear the Amulet of Kings even though she's the Last Dragonborn?

Interestingly, the Lost Prophecy refers to the Nerevarine as Dragon-born:

From seventh sign of eleventh generation,
Neither Hound nor Guar, nor Seed nor Harrow,

But Dragon-born and far-star-marked,

Outlander Incarnate beneath Red Mountain,
Blessed Guest counters seven curses,

Star-blessed hand wields thrice-cursed blade,

To reap the harvest of the unmourned house.

So the inability to wear the Amulet of Kings is already arguably a problem for a Nerevarine-Champion of Cyrodiil, if you assume that any dragonborn - not just a dragonborn of the Alessian-Reman-Septim lines or otherwise having the blessing of Akatosh or whatever it is that lets one wear the Amulet of Kings - can wear it.

Its not the Septim line that matters though. Its Saint Alessia's line. The Septims were one branch, but not the only one.

Alessia died in 1E266. 1E2920 is the end of the First Era, the Second Era lasts another 896 years, and even an old human player character in Arena probably isn't born before about 3E300, so there's about 3,850 years between Alessia's death and the birth of a human Eternal Champion. Even with a 40-year generational period, that's about 96 generations removed from the 'present'-day population, and Cyrodiil's history is too tumultuous for the 'modern' noble families to have remained genetically isolated from the general populace throughout that entire period. Even if not a single one of her descendants is illegitimate, that's enough time for Alessia to be related to approximately every living human on Cyrodiil, and in fact the balance of probability with that degree of separation is that if Alessia isn't an ancestor to everyone living then she's not an ancestor of anyone living.

Also, lore-wise, I don't think that the Septim and Reman dynasties are necessarily Alessia's heirs in the sense of being direct descendants in the primary or cadet lines - Tiber Septim's supposed to have been born on Atmora rather than on Tamriel, and the Book of the Dragonborn is an in-universe source casting doubt upon the Remanada's claim of Reman I's direct descent from Alessia - and the Book of the Dragonborn also says that it is a known fact that not all of the early Cyrodiilic rulers were related to one another, so if the "early Cyrodiilic rulers" were emperors and empresses of the First Empire and therefore wore the Amulet of Kings then it is not the Alessian lineage that the Amulet of Kings cares about.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Interestingly, the Lost Prophecy refers to the Nerevarine as Dragon-born:

So the inability to wear the Amulet of Kings is already arguably a problem for a Nerevarine-Champion of Cyrodiil, if you assume that any dragonborn - not just a dragonborn of the Alessian-Reman-Septim lines or otherwise having the blessing of Akatosh or whatever it is that lets one wear the Amulet of Kings - can wear it.

Meh, I always read that as meaning ‘marked by the Dragonborn (who in this case would be Uriel Septim) and also marked by far stars’, not stating that the Nerevarine was themself Dragonborn.

[Triaxx]

Plus you know amulet was a gift from a god. You go to put it on Akatosh gets a little pop up. Mortal wants to wear your amulet. Allow/Deny?

[Aeson]

Meh, I always read that as meaning ‘marked by the Dragonborn (who in this case would be Uriel Septim) and also marked by far stars’, not stating that the Nerevarine was themself Dragonborn.

The problem with reading "Dragon-born and far-star-marked" as "marked by the Dragon-born and far stars" is that the hyphenation of the line separates "Dragon-born" from "-marked" as unambiguously as it is possible to do without reordering the clauses. In order to create the expectation that "Dragon-born" is modifying something else on the line rather than describing the Nerevarine, "Dragon-born" needs to have a hanging hyphen ("Dragon-born- and far-star-marked"); in order for it to be ambiguous as to whether or not "Dragon-born and far-star" is a compound agent for "marked," "marked" cannot be hyphenated exclusively with "far-star" (i.e. it would need to read something like "Dragon-born and far-star marked"). As the line exists, you have two complete and unambiguously separate participles ("born" and "marked") which both form adjectives describing the Nerevarine rather than one compound adjective describing the Nerevarine formed by a participle ("marked"), a noun, and another participle ("(Dragon-)born"). The only way your interpretation works for the line as it exists is if you assume a typographical error, but since the line does not obviously contain errors the simplest interpretation is that the line is correct as it is written.

I would further note that the hyphenation of Dragon-born is odd if it is referring to the Emperor, as capitalizing 'dragon' and separating it from 'born' with a hyphen places emphasis on the connection to the Dragon (Akatosh) rather than on the one born of it (Uriel Septim VII, in your interpretation of the line), and on the rare occasion when Morrowind uses 'dragonborn' as an appellation for an emperor (usually Tiber Septim) or a god (Tiber Septim again) it does not hyphenate the compound.

[Divayth Fyr]

Note that the linked text offers a non-Dragonborn explanation for the dragon-born bit. One I find more likely than the Nerevarine being a Dragonborn like our hero in TES V.

[Fyraltari]

She's a Dragonborn, but she's not of Tiber Septim's line.

Neither is Uriel. Or Mankar Camoran yet they can wear the amulet just fine unlike the Hero of Kvatch The only requirement to be able to wear the amulet is to have "dragonblood" which seems to mean either be recognized by Akatosh as Emperor of Cyrodiil and heir to Alessia (bloodline nonwithstanding) or be a dragonborn.

No dragons to murder, she doesn't know she's Dragonborn. Not of Tiber's line, can't be Emperor.

So she just assumes she can't put it on? That works.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

The problem with reading "Dragon-born and far-star-marked" as "marked by the Dragon-born and far stars" is that the hyphenation of the line separates "Dragon-born" from "-marked" as unambiguously as it is possible to do without reordering the clauses. In order to create the expectation that "Dragon-born" is modifying something else on the line rather than describing the Nerevarine, "Dragon-born" needs to have a hanging hyphen ("Dragon-born- and far-star-marked"); in order for it to be ambiguous as to whether or not "Dragon-born and far-star" is a compound agent for "marked," "marked" cannot be hyphenated exclusively with "far-star" (i.e. it would need to read something like "Dragon-born and far-star marked"). As the line exists, you have two complete and unambiguously separate participles ("born" and "marked") which both form adjectives describing the Nerevarine rather than one compound adjective describing the Nerevarine formed by a participle ("marked"), a noun, and another participle ("(Dragon-)born"). The only way your interpretation works for the line as it exists is if you assume a typographical error, but since the line does not obviously contain errors the simplest interpretation is that the line is correct as it is written.

I did a quick Google search and it seams the hanging hyphen on the first bit (“Dragon-born” in this case) is not actually a requirement like you’re implying, thus I am not convinced by this argument.

[Vinyadan]

I understand dragon-born as "born in the Empire" rather than in Morrowind, so, essentially, an outlander. The Empire's symbol is a dragon, after all. It's actually in the book notes:

Lines 1-3: 'Of ancient family, but not of the four great Ashlander clans. Born under foreign stars and the sign of the Dragon -- the Imperial sign.'

[Aeson]

I did a quick Google search and it seams the hanging hyphen on the first bit (“Dragon-born” in this case) is not actually a requirement like you’re implying, thus I am not convinced by this argument.

Omitting hanging hyphens is in the general case not technically wrong, but it is both sloppy and lazy. In the specific case of having a connector between two things that can both independently and sensibly function as complete descriptors of the subject of the line, however, omitting the hanging hyphen when the first descriptor is meant to modify a word repeated in the second descriptor is dead wrong, because when the things being connected each independently and sensibly function as descriptors for something there is no expectation that the first descriptor is incomplete. If I tell you that someone is Mexican-born and fire-marked, do you think that I'm talking about a person who was born in Mexico and has burn scars, or do you think I'm talking about a burn-scarred person who was tattooed or otherwise marked by someone born in Mexico? The first interpretation is significantly more reasonable than the second; if I meant the latter, then I need to do something in the sentence to create the expectation that Mexican-born is modifying something other than the person I'm talking about.

I understand dragon-born as "born in the Empire" rather than in Morrowind, so, essentially, an outlander. The Empire's symbol is a dragon, after all. It's actually in the book notes:

The problem with that interpretation is that at game start Morrowind has been part of the Empire for the past 400 years or so. If you take the interpretation that dragon-born means "from the Empire," then, its meaning is basically "not an Ashlander."

[Divayth Fyr]

The problem with that interpretation is that at game start Morrowind has been part of the Empire for the past 400 years or so. If you take the interpretation that dragon-born means "from the Empire," then, its meaning is basically "not an Ashlander."

Well, it all depends on when the prophecy was made. It is old enough to be forgotten even by the Ashlanders, so it being over 400 years old wouldn't be surprising.

[veti]

Omitting hanging hyphens is in the general case not technically wrong, but it is both sloppy and lazy.

Under other circumstances I might agree with you, but in this case - I think you're construing way too much from a writing that is, at best, archaic. Conventions in punctuation change quickly, and who's to say what the person who first wrote this was thinking? (Or even what they understood themselves. Prophecies are notoriously opaque, often based on some vision or dream where the prophet - the person who conveys it to others - is only guessing at the meaning of the symbols they saw.)

And that's assuming the prophecy has been faithfully conveyed as written since its origins, which in itself would be pretty unusual. The Ashlanders strike me as a mostly oral culture. Very likely the written version was only ever second-hand, having passed through several retellings before it even made it onto paper.

So the use of a hyphen? - really doesn't carry as much weight as you're making out.

[Aeson]

Under other circumstances I might agree with you, but in this case - I think you're construing way too much from a writing that is, at best, archaic. Conventions in punctuation change quickly, and who's to say what the person who first wrote this was thinking? (Or even what they understood themselves. Prophecies are notoriously opaque, often based on some vision or dream where the prophet - the person who conveys it to others - is only guessing at the meaning of the symbols they saw.)

And that's assuming the prophecy has been faithfully conveyed as written since its origins, which in itself would be pretty unusual. The Ashlanders strike me as a mostly oral culture. Very likely the written version was only ever second-hand, having passed through several retellings before it even made it onto paper.

So the use of a hyphen? - really doesn't carry as much weight as you're making out.

Except that this is not a manuscript handed down from antiquity and full of transcription and transmission errors, it is a document written and intended to be read by modern humans who have essentially the same understanding of the rules of modern English punctuation as you or I do. Occam's Razor says the simplest hypothesis is the best hypothesis, and the simplest hypothesis in the absence of any obvious typographical or grammatical errors is that the document was meant to be read as it is written. There are no obvious grammatical or typographical errors in the line as it exists, and "Dragon-born" is unambiguously separated from "-marked" by the hyphenation as the text is written under current rules of English punctuation; therefore, "Dragon-born" is not a modifier of "-marked."

Reinforcing the interpretation that "Dragon-born" is a descriptor of the Nerevarine rather than a modifier of "-marked" is the note in the text that Vinyadan comments upon - namely, that the interpretation promoted by the author of the document is that "Dragon-born" means that the Nerevarine was born in the Empire.