The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[factotum]

My understanding of the canonicity of the quests is that while every questline happened, they didn't necessarily happened to the same person (except the main quests of the games/DLC).

You're probably already aware of this, but we're talking a company here who *so* could not be bothered to pick a canonical ending for Daggerfall that they just had all six possible endings for that game happen at the same time, contradictory as they were. I don't have a problem with assuming that all the possible sidequests for every MC in every Elder Scrolls game was also completed, even in cases like Morrowind where it was simply impossible to do that.

[LibraryOgre]

I mean, it's pretty clear in the Sheogorath Deadric quest in Skyrim that the Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, and Shivering Isles Questlines are canon. Sheogorath makes direct mentions to major events of the first two and claims that Martin is his favorite Septim and even if you don't accept that his actor confirms that the Sheogorath in Skyrim is an ascended Hero of Kvatch.

Since my Hero of Kvatch was also my Dragonborn, I just assumed that she was Sheogorath for a couple centuries, then passed the mantle to someone else and found herself, confused as hell, on the border of Skyrim.

[Rater202]

Since my Hero of Kvatch was also my Dragonborn, I just assumed that she was Sheogorath for a couple centuries, then passed the mantle to someone else and found herself, confused as hell, on the border of Skyrim.

I mean, I don't think being a God is something you can just give up like that but you do you.

...Though I'll note that Knights of the Nine implies that you're Pelinal Whitestrake reincarnated(either by default or because you're manteling him), which doesn't stop you from meeting up with his ghost, so it is entirely possible for both the player character of your Skyrim run and Sheogorath to have been the Hero of Kvatch.

[Lord Raziere]

A little bit done, though, yes? Wasn't that the plot of Oblivion?

Not really.

That was Oblivion INVADING Tamriel and.... that doesn't change the fact that this is what the Thalmor's goal canonically IS, not because of the Oblivion but because this is a religious conflict the elves and humans had since the dawn of time because of how they see themselves as descendants of the Aedra rather than being created BY the Aedra. like this is the thing that Altmer religion says is the best thing that could happen to them since the start, it doesn't matter if you consider overplayed with other people, it wouldn't make sense for the Thalmor NOT to do this, its literally their end goal, because they're all the most supremacist, evil parts of Altmer turned up to 11.

Edit: you can also say the whole "oh no Sith is trying to conquer the galaxy" plot is a little bit done in Star Wars and that "oh no, Maya has been accused of murder" has a little bit done in ace attorney, but we keep coming back to those.

[Rater202]

Strictly speaking, the Elves being Aedra who lost their divinity when the Munduus was created is true.

Likewise... The Altmer aren't wrong to claim to be a superior species. While Skyrim doesn't have visible customizable stats and presents everything as being handled through skills and unique abilities, cracking open the code shows that each race has hidden stats that affect things like default weapon damage.

These stats have a negligible effect, but of all the playable races the Altmer are objectively the best.

Likewise, the only way to guarantee that all Mer regain their divinity and become Aedra once more is to destroy the Mundus, and the very possibility of humans potentially existing is one of the things preventing the destruction of the Mundus, alongside the existence of Talos and the various towers.

With the exception of denying the existence of Talos, everything the Thalmor state is true. They are objectively superior to other races(albeit only to a negligible level) and humanity is preventing them from becoming Gods by existing.

They're just ***** about it.

to the point that even other Atlner who are not Thalmor dislike them. It's mentioned from time to time that despite being the dominant political power in the altmeri dominion that the Thalmor are not well liked and are considered extremists.

[Lord Raziere]

Rater, please stop. it makes me uncomfortable every time you start waxing "superior species"/genetic nonsense.

also "oh these humans they're a bunch of inferior beings that prevent us getting what we want by just existing, but at least we aren't jerks about it like the Thalmor, they're so impolite to actually act on what we all want and believe and have believed since the dawn of time. we should do this civilly by implying that the humans should all kill themselves or something instead, I'm sure thats a more polite and reasonable way to go about this than being rude people who actually put our desires into motion." isn't a position good decent people have. thats not starting from a position of good will, thats "we're waiting for someone else to kill you for us so our hands look clean".

[Rater202]

Rater, please stop. it makes me uncomfortable every time you start waxing "superior species"/genetic nonsense.

Don't blame me, Bethesda are the ones that coded the game that way.

And for non Thalmor Altmer it's less what you described and more "will you please shut up about killing the humans and destroying the world, do you have any idea how crazy that sounds?"

The implications is that the Thalmor are the only ones who are actually angry about not being gods and the rest of them at best don't care at all and at worst aren't willing to kill over it.

[Keltest]

Rater, please stop. it makes me uncomfortable every time you start waxing "superior species"/genetic nonsense.

also "oh these humans they're a bunch of inferior beings that prevent us getting what we want by just existing, but at least we aren't jerks about it like the Thalmor, they're so impolite to actually act on what we all want and believe and have believed since the dawn of time. we should do this civilly by implying that the humans should all kill themselves or something instead, I'm sure thats a more polite and reasonable way to go about this than being rude people who actually put our desires into motion." isn't a position good decent people have. thats not starting from a position of good will, thats "we're waiting for someone else to kill you for us so our hands look clean".

Also, arent the towers like, not actually in canon? Theyre just a concept one of the (i think now former?) writers put out in non-game "this is my personal headcanon" style material IIRC.

[Rater202]

Also, arent the towers like, not actually in canon? Theyre just a concept one of the (i think now former?) writers put out in non-game "this is my personal headcanon" style material IIRC.

Kinda.

If you're talking about the guy I'm thinking off, a lot of his "headcanon" was later added aback into the games. It's safe to treat it as canon until otherwise stated

[Ortho]

Kinda.

If you're talking about the guy I'm thinking off, a lot of his "headcanon" was later added aback into the games. It's safe to treat it as canon until otherwise stated

Unless it's officially stated as canon, it's not canon. Especially for a series with as muddied a continuity as the Elder Scrolls.

I have no idea who you're talking about, by the way. This is just a general statement.

[Lord Raziere]

Also, arent the towers like, not actually in canon? Theyre just a concept one of the (i think now former?) writers put out in non-game "this is my personal headcanon" style material IIRC.

Except the Dragonborn Prophecy in Skyrim references the Brass Tower, Red Mountain, White-Gold Tower and the Snow Tower:

When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world

When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped

When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles

When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls

When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding

The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn.

So....seems pretty canon to me.

[Keltest]

Except the Dragonborn Prophecy in Skyrim references the Brass Tower, Red Mountain, White-Gold Tower and the Snow Tower:


So....seems pretty canon to me.

There is overlap, but from my understanding, those towers are not quite the same as the metaphysical towers the Thalmor supposedly want to destroy. The concept of Towers as a thing may be in canon, or it may just represent literal really tall things.

[Rater202]

Unless it's officially stated as canon, it's not canon. Especially for a series with as muddied a continuity as the Elder Scrolls.

Under normal circumstances yes, but when the vast majority of what one writer said about the Lore ends up in the games, an exception can be made.

As for what I'm saying.

The Altmer Religion states, among other things, that after the split between the aedra and the deadra occurred but before the creation of the Mundus, that what are now Mer(elves) were lesser aedric spirits who were inside the Mundus as it was created and thus became mortal.

The old view of this was that this was a deliberate trick played upon them by Lockhearn, that the Mundus is a Prison, and that humans were created to spread Sithis's essence though the Mundus, though how much the average modern Altmer actually believes this is unknown.

Altmer also believe themselves to be the closest in nature to those original spirits and on and off used to practice selective breeding and caste systems to maintain that, but believe in that seems to stop at the border of their territory, outside of the Thlamor.

How true it is that they are the closest is a matter of debate... But considering that the Dwemer are just fricking gone, the Dunner are cursed, and both the Falmer and the Osimer have been degraded and corrupted into new forms by various means, and the Bosmer have mad a pact with a Lesser Aedra in order to better survive in heir chosen lifestyle no one else currently extant has a better claim.

Mot Altmer places importance on the Divines, but do not worship them but instead worship their ancestors... Though the Psidjic Order states that there is no meaningful difference between the Divines and an ancestor spirit.

Whatever the fine details are, the fact of the matter is that Mer(elves) of all kinds are, strictly speaking, the descendants of those original sprits. No one is alive to remember the exact details, but that part is true.

The Thalmor are an extremist faction who have help political power in the Summerset Isles on an off at various times over the eMillenia. The Thalmor believe to only that the traditional story is the literal truth, but that the altmer are objectively superior to all other races in tamriel and to humans in general...

Which due to the way Skyrim is coded, is also true. It's negligible but... I don't know why Bethesda did that.

The Thalmor also believe that if they kill all humans that they can unmake the Mundus, they will be restored to the state of divinity that their ancestors lost. The Thalmor don't actually believe that Talos is not a god... They just take such horrible offense at the idea that a human could not only become a divinity, but an Aedra when no Altmer had been able to become such that they want to 'starve' him to death by denying him of worshipers, with at least some believing that doing so would help unmake the Mundus.

Of course, being that they are extremists, even though they are the dominant political faction there are NPCs and in-game documents that state that even in the Summerset Isles most of the Altmer do not care for the Thalmor one bit with even the ones who believe in the story thinking that killing all humans and destroying the Mundus is insane. (Notably, the Thalmor have no proof that they would survive being destroyed that way, and conventional Altmer beliefs state that you become a divine being upon death so even non-Thalmor who share their religious views dislike them.)

[Keltest]

From my understanding, the Divines in High Elf mythology aren't necessarily special metaphysically so much as they have big elf energy, more than the rest of the Aedra (which literally just means "ancestors"). So to that end, they probably do genuinely refuse to believe that Talos is among the Divines, even if he has similar amounts of big human energy, but is just a human inviting himself to the wealthy elf neighbors' dinner table.

[Fyraltari]

That would be great except he doesn't reference any of the other questlines. No Fighters or Mages guild.

And? The Madgod does whatever the madgod pleases.

And I don't think that's ever been stated, I think that's just a popular fanon.

That is correct.

Except that, as I noted, The Dragonborn canonically joins the College of Winterhold. You have to be a member to progress the main quest because the quest "elder Knowledge" you need to talk to Urag gro-Shub, the Librarian of the college, and only members of the college can go in. You being let in isn't treated as an exception to the rules, you're still treated as a member and unlock the next quest in the college questline if you only join at this time.

Beyond that, Cicero has some dialog if you shout in his presence after joining the Dark Brotherhood. Arnbjorn also has dialog if you're a companion and/or werewolf. Delvin Mallory has a dialog for if you're both a thieve and an assassin depending on what order you do things in.

The only questline that doesn't reference either another faction quest or your status as Dragonborn is the Companions.

The cross-referencing might be subtle, but it was non-existent in Oblivion.

Well yeah, why wouldn't the game reference the fact that you're doing both factions in your playthrough? That kind of thing is good. Likewise, in every playthorugh you do you're always the Dragonborn/Nerevarine/whatever. Unless you modded it out of course. I don't see how that contradicts what I said. It's not like

Strictly speaking, the Elves being Aedra who lost their divinity when the Munduus was created is true.

Uh, not necessarily. The Elnofhey being Aedra who lost their power during creation is one origin story, yes, but no the only one. There's also the ones where they were moratals from the previous kalpa who survived the transition like the hist and the dreughs.

Likewise, the only way to guarantee that all Mer regain their divinity and become Aedra once more is to destroy the Mundus, and the very possibility of humans potentially existing is one of the things preventing the destruction of the Mundus, alongside the existence of Talos and the various towers.

According to traditionnal altmer religion. We don't know that the humans actually stabilize the Mundus.

to the point that even other Atlner who are not Thalmor dislike them. It's mentioned from time to time that despite being the dominant political power in the altmeri dominion that the Thalmor are not well liked and are considered extremists.

Jeeze, I wonder if that has anything to do with the ethnic cleansing, and the mass murder of political opponents and the starting a world war and stuff.

[Rater202]

From my understanding, the Divines in High Elf mythology aren't necessarily special metaphysically so much as they have big elf energy, more than the rest of the Aedra (which literally just means "ancestors"). So to that end, they probably do genuinely refuse to believe that Talos is among the Divines, even if he has similar amounts of big human energy, but is just a human inviting himself to the wealthy elf neighbors' dinner table.

Tha'ts the gist of it, yeah.

The Thalmor find it offensive that a human became an Aedra because in their mindsets humans are "weak" souls with no divinity.

Which may or may not be true... But as a Dragonborn Talos of Atmora, later Tiber Septim, wasn't exactly human to begin with. The literal blood of Akatosh flowed in hs veins and his soul was a Dragon's soul, and the purely Aedra.

He was arguably more divine than even the original elves

...That's another thing I wish that you got to bring up. The entire logic the elves give for wanting Talos worship banned(as opposed to their real reasons) makes no sense in context.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I mean, I don't think being a God is something you can just give up like that but you do you.

...Though I'll note that Knights of the Nine implies that you're Pelinal Whitestrake reincarnated(either by default or because you're manteling him), which doesn't stop you from meeting up with his ghost, so it is entirely possible for both the player character of your Skyrim run and Sheogorath to have been the Hero of Kvatch.

From Oblivion:

The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after. This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals. The Bones of the Wheel need their flesh, and that is mankind's heirloom.

Source.

They are objectively superior to other races(albeit only to a negligible level) and humanity is preventing them from becoming Gods by existing.

But have you seen how boring the architecture is?

[Fyraltari]

How true it is that they are the closest is a matter of debate... But considering that the Dwemer are just fricking gone, the Dunner are cursed, and both the Falmer and the Osimer have been degraded and corrupted into new forms by various means, and the Bosmer have mad a pact with a Lesser Aedra in order to better survive in heir chosen lifestyle no one else currently extant has a better claim.

You forgot the Maormer. And the Direnni but I don't remember if they count as Altmer or not.

Mot Altmer places importance on the Divines, but do not worship them but instead worship their ancestors... Though the Psidjic Order states that there is no meaningful difference between the Divines and an ancestor spirit.

I thought that was what it used to be like, but Altmer society gradually shifted to worshipping only the ancestors of the kings (hence the divines) and stopped worshipping the other ancestors. Which is why the Psijic split off.

Whatever the fine details are, the fact of the matter is that Mer(elves) of all kinds are, strictly speaking, the descendants of those original sprits. No one is alive to remember the exact details, but that part is true.

Except the Bomser if their own religious beliefs (as well as the Khajit's) are to be believed. And so are the humans, and possibly the khajits. And the minautors, when you stop to think about it.

From my understanding, the Divines in High Elf mythology aren't necessarily special metaphysically so much as they have big elf energy, more than the rest of the Aedra (which literally just means "ancestors"). So to that end, they probably do genuinely refuse to believe that Talos is among the Divines, even if he has similar amounts of big human energy, but is just a human inviting himself to the wealthy elf neighbors' dinner table.

Also being Lorkhan's... heir, let's go with that, did not get him any point with them.

Tha'ts the gist of it, yeah.

The Thalmor find it offensive that a human became an Aedra because in their mindsets humans are "weak" souls with no divinity.

Which may or may not be true... But as a Dragonborn Talos of Atmora, later Tiber Septim, wasn't exactly human to begin with. The literal blood of Akatosh flowed in hs veins and his soul was a Dragon's soul, and the purely Aedra.

He was arguably more divine than even the original elves

...That's another thing I wish that you got to bring up. The entire logic the elves give for wanting Talos worship banned(as opposed to their real reasons) makes no sense in context.

Wait does altmer religion even acknowledge the dragonborns as a thing? I think that's strictly a human belief. Which would make Mankar Camoran being one even more interesting.

[Keltest]

Tha'ts the gist of it, yeah.

The Thalmor find it offensive that a human became an Aedra because in their mindsets humans are "weak" souls with no divinity.

Which may or may not be true... But as a Dragonborn Talos of Atmora, later Tiber Septim, wasn't exactly human to begin with. The literal blood of Akatosh flowed in hs veins and his soul was a Dragon's soul, and the purely Aedra.

He was arguably more divine than even the original elves

...That's another thing I wish that you got to bring up. The entire logic the elves give for wanting Talos worship banned(as opposed to their real reasons) makes no sense in context.

I'm pretty sure the "blood of akatosh" thing is figurative. You aren't actually connected to him any more than any other mortal, he just blessed you.

[Fyraltari]

I'm pretty sure the "blood of akatosh" thing is figurative. You aren't actually connected to him any more than any other mortal, he just blessed you.

Considering what his relative Shezzar's blood is like, that's probably for the best.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Also, arent the towers like, not actually in canon? Theyre just a concept one of the (i think now former?) writers put out in non-game "this is my personal headcanon" style material IIRC.

From ESO:

The spike of Ada-Mantia, and its Zero Stone, dictated the structure of reality in its Aurbic vicinity, defining for the Earth Bones their story or nature within the unfolding of the Dragon's (timebound) Tale. The Aldmeri or Merethic Elves were singular of purpose only so long as it took them to realize that other Towers, with their own Stones, could tell different stories, each following rules inscribed by Variorum Architects. And so the Mer self-refracted, each to their own creation, the Chimer following Red-Heart, the Bosmer burgeoning Green-Sap, the Altmer erecting Crystal-Like-Law, et alia.

And it goes on more about Green-Sap, but I'm not copying over the whole wall of text here.

You forgot the Maormer. And the Direnni but I don't remember if they count as Altmer or not.

Yes the Direnni are Altmer, they're just a particular family line/kin house within the Altmer race, who moved to High Rock. They left a castle back in Summerset that had a quest associated with it in ESO.

I thought that was what it used to be like, but Altmer society gradually shifted to worshipping only the ancestors of the kings (hence the divines) and stopped worshipping the other ancestors. Which is why the Psijic split off.

Yup.

Wait does altmer religion even acknowledge the dragonborns as a thing? I think that's strictly a human belief. Which would make Mankar Camoran being one even more interesting.

Never heard of it being a strictly human thing. If nothing else the snake-vampires knew about it.

[Fyraltari]

FYes the Direnni are Altmer, they're just a particular family line/kin house within the Altmer race, who moved to High Rock. They left a castle back in Summerset that had a quest associated with it in ESO.

Yeah but the Chimer, Falmer, Dwemer and Ayleids were also just Ald/tmer who left. Since the Direnni have "their" tower I'm not sure if they don't count as anotehr separate race of elves.

Never heard of it being a strictly human thing. If nothing else the snake-vampires knew about it.

Well I think only the Nords have legends about Thu'um wielding dragonborns like Wulfarth or Miraak. The "Impearial" dragonborns like Alessia, Reman and Tiber are also more a human thing. The Tsaesci knew of the dragonborns you're right, but wether they were non-humans is really unclear, some sources describe them as being asian-looking humans and the ghosts we see in Oblivion looked human enough.

[Rater202]

I'm pretty sure the "blood of akatosh" thing is figurative. You aren't actually connected to him any more than any other mortal, he just blessed you.

There's the fact that you need to cut yourself and spread your blood on something when you're setting up a new headquarters for the blades. Needs specifically to be the blood of the Dragonborn. implying that there's something physically or chemically different about your blood or that there's a metaphysical energy in your blood. Either way your blood is different from the blood or other men, mer, or beastfolk.

and considering that Dragons are either literally Akatosh's children or pieces of him given independent existence, possibly both, I think having a Dragon's soul counts as a bit more than being "blessed."

This is a "you have three parents and one of them is the God of Time and the Sun" situation.

Going more into speculation, in Oblivion Tiber Septim's dried blood on a suit of armor he wore as a mortal worked for the "blood of the divines" component of a ritual. Martin claims that it works retroactivel... But it could simply have worked because he was one of Akatosh's children.

(Which if true means that they could have just used Martin's blood, since he too was Dragonborn, but where's the fun in that?)

[Keltest]

There's the fact that you need to cut yourself and spread your blood on something when you're setting up a new headquarters for the blades. Needs specifically to be the blood of the Dragonborn. implying that there's something physically or chemically different about your blood or that there's a metaphysical energy in your blood. Either way your blood is different from the blood or other men, mer, or beastfolk.

and considering that Dragons are either literally Akatosh's children or pieces of him given independent existence, possibly both, I think having a Dragon's soul counts as a bit more than being "blessed."

This is a "you have three parents and one of them is the God of Time and the Sun" situation.

Going more into speculation, in Oblivion Tiber Septim's dried blood on a suit of armor he wore as a mortal worked for the "blood of the divines" component of a ritual. Martin claims that it works retroactivel... But it could simply have worked because he was one of Akatosh's children.

(Which if true means that they could have just used Martin's blood, since he too was Dragonborn, but where's the fun in that?)

Many Men also consider themselves to be the children or scions of Lorkhan in his various incarnations, but that doesn't really make them any more divine in than the elves. Or indeed, daedra.

[Rater202]

Many Men also consider themselves to be the children or scions of Lorkhan in his various incarnations, but that doesn't really make them any more divine in than the elves. Or indeed, daedra.

How many of those men can absorb the souls of Aedra and are instinctivly able to learn an art native to the same when most men and me require decades of study to gain even the basics?

[Keltest]

How many of those men can absorb the souls of Aedra and are instinctivly able to learn an art native to the same when most men and me require decades of study to gain even the basics?

The point was that Dragons arent necessarily Aedra, not that humans also are.

[LibraryOgre]

There's the fact that you need to cut yourself and spread your blood on something when you're setting up a new headquarters for the blades. Needs specifically to be the blood of the Dragonborn. implying that there's something physically or chemically different about your blood or that there's a metaphysical energy in your blood. Either way your blood is different from the blood or other men, mer, or beastfolk.

Eh, I don't necessarily agree with that. This is a world with magic... you can literally combine wheat and a flower and make a potion that restores your health AND makes you able to survive more damage. There are at least two vampires in the Dawnguard questline whose blood... which they steal from other people... is magically special, as well. You don't need your blood to be chemically different for it to be magically different.

[Rater202]

The point was that Dragons arent necessarily Aedra, not that humans also are.

Aedra are literally the lonely things they can be. They're clearly not man, mer, or beastfolk and they're so not mortal that thinking about mortality renders them unable to fly or shout.

At the some time, nor are they a form of deadra because deadra cannot be killed, only banished. While dov can be revived with a shout unless heir soul is consumed by another dragon, that doesn't make them not dead hen their bodies are too broken to function.

So either they are aedra, or they're some other fourth thing that's never been referenced in any game or source of TES lore and that has no name.

[veti]

I mean, it's pretty clear in the Sheogorath Deadric quest in Skyrim that the Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, and Shivering Isles Questlines are canon. Sheogorath makes direct mentions to major events of the first two and claims that Martin is his favorite Septim and even if you don't accept that his actor confirms that the Sheogorath in Skyrim is an ascended Hero of Kvatch.

I... don't know what you're talking about, here. Can you please point me to the relevant quotes?

And you do have to start the College of winterhold questline as part of the main quest. The only way onto the premises is to join and entering as part of the main quest also gives you the 'go-to orientation quest, so the Dragonborn no matter what joined the College.

Actually, you don't. There's nothing (except roleplaying) to stop you making a beeline for Septimus' outpost, and the conversation with him goes exactly the same even if you didn't stop at the college first.

[Keltest]

Aedra are literally the lonely things they can be. They're clearly not man, mer, or beastfolk and they're so not mortal that thinking about mortality renders them unable to fly or shout.

At the some time, nor are they a form of deadra because deadra cannot be killed, only banished. While dov can be revived with a shout unless heir soul is consumed by another dragon, that doesn't make them not dead hen their bodies are too broken to function.

So either they are aedra, or they're some other fourth thing that's never been referenced in any game or source of TES lore and that has no name.

Alternatively, they're mortals like the rest, they're just harder to kill than most. True death among the dragons is rare, but it does happen.