The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[Fyraltari]

I... don't know what you're talking about, here. Can you please point me to the relevant quotes

There you go.

Alternatively, they're mortals like the rest, they're just harder to kill than most. True death among the dragons is rare, but it does happen.

They're the children/fragments of Akatosh, what more do you need?

[Keltest]

There you go.



They're the children/fragments of Akatosh, what more do you need?

Rater is arguing that Dragons, and therefore dragonborn, are Aedra and therefore its silly for the elves to reject Talos. I'm arguing that the connection is metaphorical rather than literal, hence the elven angst.

[Fyraltari]

Rater is arguing that Dragons, and therefore dragonborn, are Aedra and therefore its silly for the elves to reject Talos. I'm arguing that the connection is metaphorical rather than literal, hence the elven angst.

I mean the link between dragonborns and ol' Tosh is metaphysical, not biological, but the dragons are definitely lesser Aedra.

[Rater202]

I... don't know what you're talking about, here. Can you please point me to the relevant quotes?

"Jolly good guess. But only half right. I'm a mad god. The Mad God, actually. It's a family title. Gets passed down from me to myself every few thousand years."

This is obviously referring to Sheogorath freeing himself from he cycle of reverting to his oringal self and destroying his own realm/returning to his true self permanently at the end of the Third Era(after thousand of years of being cursed) by having the Hero of Kvatch mantle Sheogorath.

"You are far too hard on yourself, my dear, sweet, homicidally insane Pelagius. What would the people do without you? Dance? Sing? Smile? [laughter] Grow old? You are the best Septim that has ever ruled. Well, except for that Martin fellow, but he turned into a Dragon god, and that's hardly sporting. You know, I was there for that whole sordid affair. Marvelous time! Butterflies, blood, a Fox, a severed head... Oh, and the cheese! To die for."

More concretely, the Butterflies references the introduction to the Shivering Isles expansion where the room Haskil interviews you in turns into butterflies and flies way while "cheese" is a reference to one of the original Sheogorath's iconic lines.

The comment on blood is probably referring to the blood of the divines and blood of the Deadra quests in Oblivion.

The line about a fox is clearly referring to the Grey Fox, while the line about the severed head is referring to the Dark Brotherhood questline where the severed head of the mother of the traitor is an item you can find in his lair... And you can loot it and then drop it in front of him during the climax but before he reveals himself. He's the only member of the black hand that flinchs.

Actually, you don't. There's nothing (except roleplaying) to stop you making a beeline for Septimus' outpost, and the conversation with him goes exactly the same even if you didn't stop at the college first.

You're still joining the college to get in. Canonically, the Dragonborn at least started the college of Winterhold questline.

Alternatively, they're mortals like the rest, they're just harder to kill than most. True death among the dragons is rare, but it does happen.

YEs, it does.

But unless it's in the presence of another dragon, that death can be reversed which des not happen to mortals. Generally speaking, once a mortal is dead they're dead.

At the same time, the fact that they can die at all means that they re not Daedra: Aedra being able to die because of the sacrifices that the Divines did to create the world is kind of one of the defining differences between Aedra and Daedra.

Furthermore, dragons are explicitly not mortal.

To the point that, excepting the Dragonborn, they are literally incapable of comprehending the concepts of being mortal, finite, or temporary. The Dragon Rend Shout doesn't actually do anything to them but makes them think about those concepts and trying to think about it breaks their minds bad enough that they fall out of the sky.

so if they're not mortal(explicitly) and not daedra(based on evidence) than that only leaves Aedra, which is consistent with the fact that they both children and aspects of Akatosh.

[Keltest]

Actually, you don't. There's nothing (except roleplaying) to stop you making a beeline for Septimus' outpost, and the conversation with him goes exactly the same even if you didn't stop at the college first. You're still joining the college to get in. Canonically, the Dragonborn at least started the college of Winterhold questline.



YEs, it does.

But unless it's in the presence of another dragon, that death can be reversed which des not happen to mortals. Genrally speaking, once a mortal is dead they're dead.

At the same time, the fact that they can die at all means that they re not Daedra: Aedra being able to die because of the sacrifices that the Divines did to create the world is kind of one of the defining differences between Aedra and Daedra.

Furthermore, dragons are explicitly not mortal.

To the point that, excepting the Dragonborn, they are literally incapable of comprehending the concepts of being mortal, finite, or temporary. The Dragon Rend Shout doesn't actually do anything to them but makes them think about those concepts and trying to think about it breaks their minds bad enough that they fall out of the sky.

so if they're not mortal(explicitly) and not daedra(based on evidence) than that only leaves Aedra, which is consistent with the fact that they both children and aspects of Akatosh.

I think you're using mortality in two different ways here. The dragons are mortal in the sense that they can die and be gone forever. It's hard, but it's possible. They are not mortal in the sense that their bodies eventually give out naturally or otherwise are negatively affected by time. A dragon will never die of old age or sickness, their body has to be destroyed by some outside force. Dragonrend works on the latter force.

[Rater202]

I think you're using mortality in two different ways here. The dragons are mortal in the sense that they can die and be gone forever. It's hard, but it's possible. They are not mortal in the sense that their bodies eventually give out naturally or otherwise are negatively affected by time. A dragon will never die of old age or sickness, their body has to be destroyed by some outside force.

I'm using mortal in the sense of "man, mer, or beastfolk." Metaphsyiscally mortal.

Dragons are not any of those things. Nor are they deadra. They are Aedra.

They are not mortal, because mortals die and stay dead which dragons do not bare the destruction of their souls.

But at the same time they are not Deadra because Deadra can't die at all.

Dragons are explicitly not mortal. But they're not Daedra.

Therefore, the only thing that they can be is Aedra.

[Keltest]

I'm using mortal in the sense of "man, mer, or beastfolk." Metaphsyiscally mortal.

Dragons are not any of those things. Nor are they deadra. They are Aedra.

They are not mortal, because mortals die and stay dead which dragons do not bare the destruction of their souls.

But at the same time they are not Deadra because Deadra can't die at all.

Dragons are explicitly not mortal. But they're not Daedra.

Therefore, the only thing that they can be is Aedra.

I don't think your definition of mortality is actually supported by the lore. Dragons die and stay dead barring a specific effort by an outside force to return them, and human souls can also be called back with magic. There is, iirc, even at least one example of true and proper resurrection of a Breton in ESO, so it is at least theoretically possible even if it's beyond the power of men or mer at this time.

[Rater202]

I don't think your definition of mortality is actually supported by the lore. Dragons die and stay dead barring a specific effort by an outside force to return them, and human souls can also be called back with magic. There is, iirc, even at least one example of true and proper resurrection of a Breton in ESO, so it is at least theoretically possible even if it's beyond the power of men or mer at this time.

"Dragons can only be permanently killed by another dragon" is an intrinsic property of dragons. It takes only a token effort to revive them.

Lots of things permanently kill mortals. That is an intrinsic property of mortals and any ressurection is exceptional.

You are asserting that dragons are not aedra but are in fact mortal.

I am asserting the explicit fact that they are not mortal, which is explicitly stated in the main storyline as well as the demonstrable fact that they are not immortal the way Dadra are but nor are they mortal because it is trivial for them to be revived.

They are not mortal, nor are the daedra.

Thus, they must be aedra, which is consistent with their nature as children and/or aspects of Akatosh.

[Keltest]

"Dragons can only be permanently killed by another dragon" is an intrinsic property of dragons. It takes only a token effort to revive them.

Lots of things permanently kill mortals. That is an intrinsic property of mortals and any ressurection is exceptional.

You are asserting that dragons are not aedra but are in fact mortal.

I am asserting the explicit fact that they are not mortal, which is explicitly stated in the main storyline as well as the demonstrable fact that they are not immortal the way Dadra are but nor are they mortal because it is trivial for them to be revived.

They are not mortal, nor are the daedra.

Thus, they must be aedra, which is consistent with their nature as children and/or aspects of Akatosh.

I recognize that is your position, and I am calling into question the premises you are basing it on. The only dragon we have seen resurrecting another is Alduin, who may be an Aedra himself as we cannot devour his soul. But I is certainly not a trivial thing. Likewise we have seen humans resurrected, so their death is on the same level of permanence as dragons.

I also question that "mortal " is the important distinguisher for a being created from Mundus, as opposed to some other title. Certainly there are other undying creatures, like vampires and hagravens, who are certainly not ordinary mortals but also not aedra either.

[Rater202]

I recognize that is your position, and I am calling into question the premises you are basing it on. The only dragon we have seen resurrecting another is Alduin, who may be an Aedra himself as we cannot devour his soul. But I is certainly not a trivial thing. Likewise we have seen humans resurrected, so their death is on the same level of permanence as dragons.

We can't devour his soul because he's still destined to end the world when the time is right. That's set in stone and can't be changed.

Tis i stated explicitly if you bring it up with Paarthurnax after defeating Alduin.

There only meaningful difference between Alduin and any other dragon, besides his destiny, is that he is the First Born of Akatosh, the first dragon to be created.

Paarthunax refers to him as brother and Akatosh as father.

And visibly there is no difference between alduin's soul as it flies off to whatever realm of Aetherius it's waiting in until he returns to devour the world and the souls of any other dragon as you absorb them.

Alduin is an Aedra because he is a son and/or Aspect of Akatosh.

But so is literally every other dragon.

[Keltest]

We can't devour his soul because he's still destined to end the world when the time is right. That's set in stone and can't be changed.

Tis i stated explicitly if you bring it up with Paarthurnax after defeating Alduin.

There only meaningful difference between Alduin and any other dragon, besides his destiny, is that he is the First Born of Akatosh, the first dragon to be created.

Paarthunax refers to him as brother and Akatosh as father.

And visibly there is no difference between alduin's soul as it flies off to whatever realm of Aetherius it's waiting in until he returns to devour the world and the souls of any other dragon as you absorb them.

Alduin is an Aedra because he is a son and/or Aspect of Akatosh.

But so is literally every other dragon.

Even if he has a magic destiny shield around his soul, that still doesn't change the fact that it makes him different from dragons, similarly to how the dragonborn is different from other members of their race. And that does nothing at all to address my other points.

[Rater202]

Even if he has a magic destiny shield around his soul, that still doesn't change the fact that it makes him different from dragons, similarly to how the dragonborn is different from other members of their race. And that does nothing at all to address my other points.

Your point is that dragons are mortal, no different from humans or elves and are not a form of Aedra.

My point is that the game draws attention to the fact that they are immortal and unchanging, but yet can still be temporarily killed, meaning that they are neither mortal nor daedra.

Likewise... Vampires and Hagravens are still mortal. They're unaging but they die and stay dead just as much as anyone else.

Comparing Alduin to another dragon vs Dragonborn to another member of their mortal race is also disingenuous. The only difference between Alduin and another Dragonis his destiny which takes precedence over your ability to consume souls.

It was actually a meme for a good long while that despite Alduin being presented as a big deal that once ou actually get to fight him he's no more dangerous than any other dragon in the base game. By the time you fight him, with Dragonrend and three NPC companions that can also shout he goes down like a bitch.

Lore on Dragons in the game, some of which is explicitly told to the player as part of the main quest, spells it out: Dragons have always been. They are immortal and unchanging, only able to truly die if their soul is devoured by another dragon. Otherwise, you can render them incapacitated by destroying their body but their soul is still alive.

This makes them distinct from the creatures of Mundus who die and usually stay dead when killed, and from Daedra to whom even the destruction of their physical body is but an inconvenience.

The Dov are closer to Aedra than they are to anything else.

So if they behave like an Aedra and either the children of an Aedra or literally part of that same Aedra... What else can you call them but Aedra?

[Keltest]

Your point is that dragons are mortal, no different from humans or elves and are not a form of Aedra.

My point is that the game draws attention to the fact that they are immortal and unchanging, but yet can still be temporarily killed, meaning that they are neither mortal nor daedra.

Likewise... Vampires and Hagravens are still mortal. They're unaging but they die and stay dead just as much as anyone else.

Comparing Alduin to another dragon vs Dragonborn to another member of their mortal race is also disingenuous. The only difference between Alduin and another Dragonis his destiny which takes precedence over your ability to consume souls.

It was actually a meme for a good long while that despite Alduin being presented as a big deal that once ou actually get to fight him he's no more dangerous than any other dragon in the base game. By the time you fight him, with Dragonrend and three NPC companions that can also shout he goes down like a bitch.

Lore on Dragons in the game, some of which is explicitly told to the player as part of the main quest, spells it out: Dragons have always been. They are immortal and unchanging, only able to truly die if their soul is devoured by another dragon. Otherwise, you can render them incapacitated by destroying their body but their soul is still alive.

This makes them distinct from the creatures of Mundus who die and usually stay dead when killed, and from Daedra to whom even the destruction of their physical body is but an inconvenience.

The Dov are closer to Aedra than they are to anything else.

So if they behave like an Aedra and either the children of an Aedra or literally part of that same Aedra... What else can you call them but Aedra?

Yes, and as you keep ignoring, we have also seen examples of humans being resurrected the same way dragons were. As well as vampires and werewolves, in fact. So while the dragons may be better at it than humans, in terms of actual ability for it to happen there isn't actually a difference. Dragons are unaffected by time, unlike most mortals, but when they die they stay dead unless acted on by an outside force.

[Rater202]

Yes, and as you keep ignoring, we have also seen examples of humans being resurrected the same way dragons were. As well as vampires and werewolves, in fact. So while the dragons may be better at it than humans, in terms of actual ability for it to happen there isn't actually a difference. Dragons are unaffected by time, unlike most mortals, but when they die they stay dead unless acted on by an outside force.

Mortals are dead when they die.

Dragons are not.

We also see that resurrecting a dragon is a trivial matter: Just use a specific Th'um on their remains, three words shouted by someone who understands them, one of which is learned and understood by the player character while resurrecting a mortal is a much more complicated and involved process that can easily go wrong.

[Keltest]

Mortals are dead when they die.

Dragons are not.

We also see that resurrecting a dragon is a trivial matter: Just use a specific Th'um on their remains, three words shouted by someone who understands them, one of which is learned and understood by the player character while resurrecting a mortal is a much more complicated and involved process that can easily go wrong.

I must have missed learning the shout to resurrect dragons.

Oh wait, we can't. Using a shout is far more than just speaking the words. We got to shortcut it because we can steal the knowledge, but the other dragons had to learn it the long way.

[Lurkmoar]

I must have missed learning the shout to resurrect dragons.

Oh wait, we can't. Using a shout is far more than just speaking the words. We got to shortcut it because we can steal the knowledge, but the other dragons had to learn it the long way.

The shout that brings Dragons back seems to have been unique to Aludin. Most likely a gift from big daddy Akatosh.

[Rater202]

I must have missed learning the shout to resurrect dragons.

Oh wait, we can't. Using a shout is far more than just speaking the words. We got to shortcut it because we can steal the knowledge, but the other dragons had to learn it the long way.

1: I didn't say we did. Wha tI sid i that we learn one of the words of that shout.

The Shout that alduin uses to resurrect dragons is Slen Tiid Vo.

Flesh. Time. Un. The last word seems to be a prefix, as in "undo."

The Dragonborn learns a Thu'um to freeze an opponent in solid ice.

Iiz Slen Nus.

Ice. Flesh. Statue.

The Dragonborn learns one of the Worlds of power needed to resurrect dragons. Slen. Flesh.

2: I described the process of using a shout as requiring you to understand the word. Anyone who knows and understands the words can bring them bring dragons back because the dragons are brought back with a shout and Alduin is not special or unique beyond his destiny.

3: No, that last bit is wrong. Humans have to learn to understand it the long way. the Dragonborn explicitly leanrs the Thu'um the way dragons do. Instinctively and able to absorb the knowledge from beings that have it, such as b consuming another Dragon's soul.

Notably, the Dragonborn can even absorb an understanding of words from Shouts that the Dragons themselves don't seem to know how to use: Most of the shouts in the game are never used by a dragon, and checking the cod indicates that they tend to only know a couple.

4: Incidentally, double-checking some stuff: The Official French translation of the Elder Scrolls Online uses "Jills" for J in A Child's Tamriel Bestiary,

Jills are not mentioned anywhere else in the game... But are mentioned in the Lore presented by Michael Kirkbride, the former Bethesda writer whose "unofficial" works keep getting mentioned in official materials regardless.

Jills, the Handmaidens of Akatosh are a form of Lesser Aedra, referred to as "Minute Menders" whose job is to fix things whenever there's a dragon break. They dracomorphic in form are explicitly the female counterparts of the "dragons" and "drakes" referred to in the pre-Skyrim Elder Scrolls lore, which are all established in Skyrim and Online to be Dov.

Since Jill's are now mentioned in official material, that makes them canon. And if the "female" Dov are Lesser Aedra, that makes the 'male' Dov also lesser Aedra, yes?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Yeah but the Chimer, Falmer, Dwemer and Ayleids were also just Ald/tmer who left. Since the Direnni have "their" tower I'm not sure if they don't count as anotehr separate race of elves.

But saying Adamantine Tower is ‘their’ Tower in the Dirennis’ case is like saying White Gold belongs to the Mede Dynasty. They didn’t make it, they just happen to live around it. It predates them, to start with, and there are bits of it they can’t use and don’t know how to open.

Well I think only the Nords have legends about Thu'um wielding dragonborns like Wulfarth or Miraak. The "Impearial" dragonborns like Alessia, Reman and Tiber are also more a human thing. The Tsaesci knew of the dragonborns you're right, but wether they were non-humans is really unclear, some sources describe them as being asian-looking humans and the ghosts we see in Oblivion looked human enough.

Near as one can tell, Tsaesci had more than one race living there, so some of them were human yes. ‘No Men or Mer live in Akavir, though Men once did. These Men, however, were eaten long ago by the vampiric Serpent Folk of Tsaesci.’

Also the Tsaesci knew about the Thu’um, they just called it something else, and it’s implied that’s how they knew Reman was Dragonborn. ‘...the remaining Dragonguard, upon hearing the voice of Reman Cyrodiil, knelt and swore their lives to him, their conqueror and savior.’

[LibraryOgre]

I must have missed learning the shout to resurrect dragons.

Oh wait, we can't. Using a shout is far more than just speaking the words. We got to shortcut it because we can steal the knowledge, but the other dragons had to learn it the long way.

You don't, but you learn 2 of the words... Slen (2nd word of Ice Form) and Tiid (first word of Slow Time)

[druid91]

There's also the Avatar of Akatosh that Martin turns into in Oblivion, which is a dragon.

Dragons are the children of Akatosh. Akatosh is an Aedra. Erego, Dragons are Aedra. Sort of.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Yes, and as you keep ignoring, we have also seen examples of humans being resurrected the same way dragons were. As well as vampires and werewolves, in fact. So while the dragons may be better at it than humans, in terms of actual ability for it to happen there isn't actually a difference. Dragons are unaffected by time, unlike most mortals, but when they die they stay dead unless acted on by an outside force.

Remind me, when did we see vampires and werewolves being resurrected? I remember High King Emeric and Indaenir.

In addition to the not-aging thing, the Dovah don’t breed, and the souls of the mortal races are much more fragile.

[Keltest]

Remind me, when did we see vampires and werewolves being resurrected? I remember High King Emeric and Indaenir.

In addition to the not-aging thing, the Dovah don’t breed, and the souls of the mortal races are much more fragile.

Its in the newest big expansion for ESO, the one in western Skyrim. Harrowstorm i think was the name.

Spoiler

Show

The Grey Host, a legion of vampires and werewolves that ravaged the region some time in the first era, is being resurrected by a coven of reachmen witches using the ashes of the original members and the stolen life force of the local inhabitants via the eponymous Harrowstorms. They dont come back as zombies or anything, theyre in the same state of (un)life as they were when they were killed.

Now, being that the souls of vampires and werewolves go to Coldharbour and Hircine's Hunting Grounds respectively, one could argue that they dont count as mortals for the purposes of resurrection. Which would be a fair argument, but we have two regular mortals being resurrected as well, so i dont really need to die on that particular hill.

I also question the fragility of mortal souls, since so far as im aware we never really see them destroyed the way we do a dragon's. If youre referring to something specific, please enlighten me.

[halfeye]

Isn't it a lot more likely that the "lore" of the elder scrolls games is just internally inconsistent?

From Godels theorem we know that logic, which tries very hard to be internally consistent fails in that attempt, the Elder Scrolls is a game with dozens of authors, some of whom are almost certain to have disagreed, it's certain that the lore is inconsistent.

[Lord Raziere]

Isn't it a lot more likely that the "lore" of the elder scrolls games is just internally inconsistent?

From Godels theorem we know that logic, which tries very hard to be internally consistent fails in that attempt, the Elder Scrolls is a game with dozens of authors, some of whom are almost certain to have disagreed, it's certain that the lore is inconsistent.

Dragon Breaks are canon and an important part of time works in Elder Scrolls. It doesn't matter if its inconsistent: every timeline happens then remerges into one. inconsistency doesn't dismiss anything in Elder Scrolls lore, because on top of the usual biased first hand/second hand/third hand account thing, there is the very real possibility that a wildly different version of events for one historical figure or another actually happened in one timeline or another and got incorporated back in when the timelines merged.

furthermore, physics in Elder Scrolls isn't.....set in stone. the entire point of alteration school of magic is realizing how malleable the world really is, and a few alteration masters have zero-summed out of existence when they got too deep: physics in Elder Scrolls is so modifiable that the wizards who study it too closely realize their world is fake and thus automatically delete themselves out of existence.

inconsistency doesn't explain away anything, the world's lore is canonically designed to incorporate inconsistency itself into being something consistent with its rules.

[Rater202]

there's nothing simple about an Elder Scroll. It's a reflection of all possible futures and all possible pasts. Each reader sees different reflections through different lenses, and may come away with a very different reading. But at the same time, all of it is true. Even the falsehoods. Especially the falsehoods."

his is referring, of course, to the actual in-universe Elder Scrolls, but it's an accurate summary of the franchise as a whole.

And that's before we get into CHIM, which starts out as "you found out that reality is either a super-complex vodeogame. Here are the console commands and cheat codes" and goes from there.

[Aeson]

Regarding the argument over resurrection, I will point out that in Daggerfall the vampirism disease appears to actually kill the person who contracts it - if you don't treat it in time, you get the message "Death is not always eternal. For some it is merely a time of waiting. Now is your time of waiting. Be patient and all will be revealed..." and then wake up in a tomb - and Daggerfall allows the player character to cure him- or her-self of vampirism after becoming a vampire. If, as appears to be the case, the Iliac Bay strains of the vampirism disease are lethal, then the cure (at least for the Iliac Bay vampire bloodlines) would seem to be a form of resurrection for men and mer.

Dragon Breaks are canon and an important part of time works in Elder Scrolls.

They are, yes, but the only main-series TES game that canonically ends in a Dragon Break is Daggerfall.

And that's before we get into CHIM, which starts out as "you found out that reality is either a super-complex vodeogame. Here are the console commands and cheat codes" and goes from there.

You can take 36 Lessons of Vivec that way, or you can read it as the inane ramblings of a madman who proclaimed himself a god.

[Lord Raziere]

You can take 36 Lessons of Vivec that way, or you can read it as the inane ramblings of a madman who proclaimed himself a god.

Except Talos achieved the same state of CHIM.

he turned Cyrodiil from jungle to a temperate forest. which can't be explained by shouts or normal magic.

[Rater202]

My understanding of the 36 lessons is that Vivec is either drastically exaggerating or outright fabricating his feats in order to make himself seem cooler but that the actual abilities he claims to have are legit.

[factotum]

Regarding the argument over resurrection, I will point out that in Daggerfall the vampirism disease appears to actually kill the person who contracts it - if you don't treat it in time, you get the message "Death is not always eternal. For some it is merely a time of waiting. Now is your time of waiting. Be patient and all will be revealed..." and then wake up in a tomb

Well, yes, vampires are undead, which means they're actually dead but being animated by dark magics. That's pretty much how they work in *any* setting, not just the Elder Scrolls.

[Fyraltari]

But saying Adamantine Tower is ‘their’ Tower in the Dirennis’ case is like saying White Gold belongs to the Mede Dynasty. They didn’t make it, they just happen to live around it. It predates them, to start with, and there are bits of it they can’t use and don’t know how to open.

The chimer didn't build Red Mountain and the Falmer didn't make the Snow Throat either.

Near as one can tell, Tsaesci had more than one race living there, so some of them were human yes. ‘No Men or Mer live in Akavir, though Men once did. These Men, however, were eaten long ago by the vampiric Serpent Folk of Tsaesci.’

Also the Tsaesci knew about the Thu’um, they just called it something else, and it’s implied that’s how they knew Reman was Dragonborn. ‘...the remaining Dragonguard, upon hearing the voice of Reman Cyrodiil, knelt and swore their lives to him, their conqueror and savior.’

Yup, and the ghosts we see why of that army are humans, so it's still likely that "dragonborn" is a human-only concept.

Isn't it a lot more likely that the "lore" of the elder scrolls games is just internally inconsistent?

From Godels theorem we know that logic, which tries very hard to be internally consistent fails in that attempt, the Elder Scrolls is a game with dozens of authors, some of whom are almost certain to have disagreed, it's certain that the lore is inconsistent.

Well, yes, but that's no fun.

his is referring, of course, to the actual in-universe Elder Scrolls, but it's an accurate summary of the franchise as a whole.

I mean the scrolls are pretty obviously a metaphor for the games themeselves: nobody knows how many there are exactly, they're linked to the fabric of the universe, they foretell of Heroes but they can't predict much about these heroes while they describe everyone around them with certainty. Because the game designers can constrict somewhat the actions of the player characters but they're ultimately the only free agent in the games.

Except Talos achieved the same state of CHIM.

Alledgedly.

he turned Cyrodiil from jungle to a temperate forest. which can't be explained by shouts or normal magic.

But ESO offers another explanation: a translation error White-Gold Tower geadually changed creation around it to suit the needs of its new inhabitants.