The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[veti]

.You're still joining the college to get in. Canonically, the Dragonborn at least started the college of Winterhold questline.

No, that was my point. You don't have to get in. There's a requirement to meet Septimus to get the keys to Blackreach (I think, although there may be an alternative way in that I don't know) - but Septimus isn't in the college, and nor is anyone else you actually need.

[Caelestion]

This whole multi-page discussion makes one think that trying to argue about the canonicity of a setting where the entire backstory is subject to change with each new game is perhaps a little bit foolish.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I also question the fragility of mortal souls, since so far as im aware we never really see them destroyed the way we do a dragon's. If youre referring to something specific, please enlighten me.

Coldharbour in ESO has a sidequest *digs* this one. Plus the Keyes books mention that as the ultimate fate of the souls that get absorbed by the floating island - after all the bits that made the souls people have been destroyed they get rendered down into energy and one of the main characters uses it in her cooking.

[Lord Raziere]

This whole multi-page discussion makes one think that trying to argue about the canonicity of a setting where the entire backstory is subject to change with each new game is perhaps a little bit foolish.

Only if your beholden to the idea that everything must have only a single explanation for why something happens and can't accept that nature of the time in Elder Scrolls is that different paths can lead to the same destination, without any of them being retconned out. Its not that one way happened and suddenly another way is how it happened in another instance, its that all of the ways it could've happened, did, and one is just more famous than the other when really they both equally happened.

like the whole thing about the White-Gold Tower in ESO Fyralti talked about? ESO is earlier in the timeline, and is set in one of the longest Dragonbreaks in Tamrielic history. its explanation for how that happened is just one of them. different path, same destination, so its not as if its any more valid. nothing has been gotten rid of, its still there, now there is just an extra path to that destination.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

My understanding of the 36 lessons is that Vivec is either drastically exaggerating or outright fabricating his feats in order to make himself seem cooler but that the actual abilities he claims to have are legit.

Second this. One of the books describes a power that sounds a lot like pausing the game, and while I don’t know why the Mage would throw a moon at Vivec city (she’s much nicer than that) we’ve seen that she can throw moons around because she does at the end of her Trial.

The chimer didn't build Red Mountain and the Falmer didn't make the Snow Throat either.

Okay, let me put this a different way: name the ways in which the Direnni are distinct from mainstream Altmer - or other mer subraces for that matter. Dunmer are gray, have fire resistance and tend to have red eyes, Bosmer are short and have shapeshifting powers, the Direnni have...?

Yup, and the ghosts we see why of that army are humans, so it's still likely that "dragonborn" is a human-only concept.

My Khajiit Dragonborn laughs at this...and actually the Dragons call you Dragonborn too. (‘Dovahkiin! Nooo!’) And some of them were allied with the Tsaesci so it’s not like they wouldn’t notice if Reman and Tiber Septim were something different.

But ESO offers another explanation: a translation error White-Gold Tower geadually changed creation around it to suit the needs of its new inhabitants.

My personal theory is that the trees just migrated south. That lets Tiber Shout them away again a few centuries later.

This whole multi-page discussion makes one think that trying to argue about the canonicity of a setting where the entire backstory is subject to change with each new game is perhaps a little bit foolish.

*shrug* Until Elder Scrolls 6 comes out we have nothing more interesting to discuss.

[Fyraltari]

like the whole thing about the White-Gold Tower in ESO Fyralti talked about?

Fyraltari.

ESO is earlier in the timeline, and is set in one of the longest Dragonbreaks in Tamrielic history.

Wait, what? I don't remember a Dragon Break during the Interregnum, what happened?

Okay, let me put this a different way: name the ways in which the Direnni are distinct from mainstream Altmer - or other mer subraces for that matter. Dunmer are gray, have fire resistance and tend to have red eyes, Bosmer are short and have shapeshifting powers, the Direnni have...?

I dunno, that's why I was asking. Are they different from the Altmer? They left, invested a Tower and formed their own empire, just like the Maormer, Chimer, Falmer, Dwemer and Ayleids so I'm wondering wether they're still Altmer. I dunno.

My Khajiit Dragonborn laughs at this.

I never said that dragonborns couldn't be of non-human races just that they're a human religious concept. If you have any source mentionning elven, khajiti, argonian or whatever religious stuff pertaining to dragonborn, I'm eager to read about it.

..and actually the Dragons call you Dragonborn too. (‘Dovahkiin! Nooo!’)

Well, I would hope the dragons know what a dragonborn is by now.

And some of them were allied with the Tsaesci so it’s not like they wouldn’t notice if Reman and Tiber Septim were something different.

Did anybody say they were?

[Eldan]

Not sure if it's ever officially confirmed to be a dragonbreak in ESO, but it's at a very least a bit fan theory about why the lore in ESO is often quite different.

[Aeson]

Well, yes, vampires are undead, which means they're actually dead but being animated by dark magics. That's pretty much how they work in *any* setting, not just the Elder Scrolls.

- The player character does not clearly or explicitly die when becoming a vampire in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim; you contract the disease, and after three days the next time you go to sleep you wake up as a vampire without any indication that you've died.
- Turn Undead does not work on vampires in either Morrowind or Oblivion.

Vampires as they exist in Morrowind and Oblivion may as well be living creatures afflicted by a weird form of rabies rather than literal undead beings.

[Rater202]

No, that was my point. You don't have to get in. There's a requirement to meet Septimus to get the keys to Blackreach (I think, although there may be an alternative way in that I don't know) - but Septimus isn't in the college, and nor is anyone else you actually need.

Objectively false.

You may remember that a significant part of the main questline of the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim and it's DLC Dawnguard requires you to find and read The Elder Scroll of Dragons.

Part of finding this Scroll, unless you abuse an exploit, requires you to talk to Urag gro-Shub. The Librarian at the Arcanum of the College of Winterhold.

The only way to talk to him is to join the College.

If you have not joined the College by the time you get this quest, you unlock the ability to bypass the entrance exam by demonstrating a shout, but you're still treated as a member of the college and you unlock the next part of the College questline.

Now, I understand that there's a glitch in the game that lets you skip this by going straight to the place that he tells you to go... But that this is not canon because it is a glitch.

So, canonically, no matter what, the Dragonborn has at a bare minimum (by)passed the entrance exam and is registered as a member of the college.

...And now that I think about it, an awful lot of Shouts have words that you can only find if you join a faction sidequest. Whether you join or destroy the Dark Brotherhood, you can only get one of the words of MArked For Death by going into the Sanctuary. One of the words of Firebreath is in a dungeon that's sealed off unless you do a Companions quest.

Ice Form has a word from Saarthal... Only accessible if you join the college.

And I don't remember one off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure that there's a word wall in a locked dungeon in the Thieveguild too.

If we are meant to assume that the Dragonborn masters every shout, then we have to assume that all of the factions are canon.

[Fyraltari]

- The player character does not clearly or explicitly die when becoming a vampire in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim; you contract the disease, and after three days the next time you go to sleep you wake up as a vampire without any indication that you've died.
- Turn Undead does not work on vampires in either Morrowind or Oblivion.

Vampires as they exist in Morrowind and Oblivion may as well be living creatures afflicted by a weird form of rabies rather than literal undead beings.

Doesn't Dawnbreaker's anti-undead effect work on vampires as well?

If we are meant to assume that the Dragonborn masters every shout, then we have to assume that all of the factions are canon.

Are we?

[Divayth Fyr]

One of the words of Firebreath is in a dungeon that's sealed off unless you do a Companions quest.

Ditto for one of the Words of Animal Allegiance (on top of a hill you get to through Ysgramor's Tomb), though I guess you could try to jump your way to that one or something...

And I don't remember one off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure that there's a word wall in a locked dungeon in the Thieveguild too.

Disarm in Snow Veil Sanctum.

Ice Form has a word from Saarthal... Only accessible if you join the college.

And Slow Time Word in Labirynthian.

- The player character does not clearly or explicitly die when becoming a vampire in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim; you contract the disease, and after three days the next time you go to sleep you wake up as a vampire without any indication that you've died.
- Turn Undead does not work on vampires in either Morrowind or Oblivion.

Vampires as they exist in Morrowind and Oblivion may as well be living creatures afflicted by a weird form of rabies rather than literal undead beings.

At the same time, the various effects that would work on undead (Sun Damage, Necromage, Dawnbreaker etc) do work on Skyrim vampires.

Not sure if it's ever officially confirmed to be a dragonbreak in ESO, but it's at a very least a bit fan theory about why the lore in ESO is often quite different.

Yeah, AFAIK, at this point is is just a popular fain idea.

Personally I prefer another one.

Spoiler

Show

TES Online allows the player to live the events of The Alliance War saga, an ongoing series of historical fiction novels written in the Fourth Era and set in the Second Era of Tamriel. Though extremely popular among the commoners, scholars and priests across Tamriel have criticized it for its unbelievable characters, including an Altmer queen of only 28 years, and blatant historical and mythological inaccuracies. The Elder Council condemns its portrayal of the Imperial government as complicit in a Daedric invasion of Tamriel, and cults of Molag Bal in four provinces have released statements distancing themselves from the author, who goes simply by the name of "Loremaster Lawrence."

[Vinyadan]

When turning into a vampire, you could have died in your sleep in Morrowind. Or you might not have died at all in Daggerfall, it's just that people can't tell a pupating vampire from a corpse. Not that it matters, vampires differ greatly by place and by tribe. It's not just different mechanics, there's a book about it in Oblivion, Immortal Blood. The vampires in the Imperial province just don't work like those in Morrowind for some aspects, and the same might apply to those in Daggerfall. The book hints to different tribes in High Rock and Hammerfell, but it doesn't really talk about them.

I had been wondering where all the talk about the anti-catastrophe towers came from. There's nothing about them in the games I have played. The Alduin/Dragonborn prophecy sounds just like an expression of widespread political turmoil and devastation, using the towers as symbols for the major seats of power and Red Mountain for natural upheaval (which would mesh well with a millenarist End-of-the-World mood, I wish they had insisted more on this aspect, although it already was very strong in Oblivion, so maybe they didn't want a repeat). As a narrative, I alternate between like and dislike, depending on how they are presented. For me, the important thing is that they do not lower the importance of the actions of the Nerevarine and the Champion of Cyrodiil in, respectively, destroying the power of Almsivi and restoring the Fires, both things that keep Oblivion away. (I also don't think mountains and towers in the same category make much sense.)

EDIT: By the way, do you know of any mod that makes Oblivion combat faster and more deadly for both PC and NPCs? I always felt it was slow, but now it feels even worse.

[Aeson]

Doesn't Dawnbreaker's anti-undead effect work on vampires as well?

Dawnbreaker doesn't exist in either Morrowind or Oblivion, including their official expansions and DLCs.

At the same time, the various effects that would work on undead (Sun Damage, Necromage, Dawnbreaker etc) do work on Skyrim vampires.

Different strains of vampirism work differently. We know this to be the case in universe, because there are nine distinct strains of vampirism implemented in Daggerfall and three distinct strains of vampirism implemented in Morrowind, each of which has different effects from the other strains of vampirism present in the same game, and also because in-game texts such as Immortal Blood say as much (though this of course needs to be taken with a grain of salt, as what in-game texts say about something does not always match up with what we see when that thing appears in a game - Immortal Blood's description of the Volkihar does not match the Volkihar - or any other vampires - as they appear in Skyrim particularly well, for instance; perhaps more famously, a number of in-game texts describe Cyrodiil as being covered in jungles and rainforests whereas the Cyrodiil of Oblivion has a lot of temperate forest and grassland). As such, it cannot be taken for granted that something which is true of one strain of vampirism is necessarily true for all Tamrielic vampires.

It's also worth mentioning that Skyrim's vampirism disease is known as Sanguinare Vampiris whereas Morrowind's and Oblivion's vampirism diseases are known as Porphyric Hemophilia. If this is not just waved off as an unexplained change in the name of the family of diseases which cause vampirism, then this implies that the Skyrim vampirism strain is much more distinct from the Cyrodiil-Vvardenfell strains than the Cyrodiil-Vvarndenfell strains are from one another, making the idea that something being true of vampires in Skyrim necessarily means that the same thing must be true of vampires elsewhere rather questionable.

Beyond that, I am casting doubt on the idea that all Tamrielic vampires are necessarily, unequivocably undead entities in the sense of "a corpse reanimated by unnatural forces." In order to accomplish that, I only need to show that some Tamrielic vampires do not behave as would be expected for undead entities - for instance, vampires in Morrowind and Oblivion being unaffected by Turn Undead spells. That other vampires, such as those found in Skyrim, are affected by undead-targeting spells, is largely irrelevant, especially given that it is a known fact that there are many different strains of vampirism in the setting and that those strains do not all have the same effects.

Or you might not have died at all in Daggerfall, it's just that people can't tell a pupating vampire from a corpse.

That could reasonably be the case if you just woke up in a tomb, but the message that you get when you become a vampire in Daggerfall - "Death is not always eternal. For some it is merely a time of waiting. Now is your time of waiting. Be patient and all will be revealed..." - strongly implies that you have in fact died and come back as a vampire. It is of course still arguable either way, since you could just have fallen into a very convincing death-like state for several days and been buried as a result thereof, but this is a much more clear-cut death-and-return than is the case in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, where you can take an hour-long nap and arise as a vampire.

When turning into a vampire, you could have died in your sleep in Morrowind.

It's possible, certainly. It is, however, a much more ambiguous 'death' resulting from your vampiric transformation than occurs in Daggerfall.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I dunno, that's why I was asking. Are they different from the Altmer? They left, invested a Tower and formed their own empire, just like the Maormer, Chimer, Falmer, Dwemer and Ayleids so I'm wondering wether they're still Altmer. I dunno.

Except, again, they didn’t make Adamantine. It’s the oldest structure on Nirn, and all the Towers the mer made were made in mimicry of it, to a greater or lesser degree. It was made by the Aedra. And since when do the Maormer have a Tower?

So, to answer your question: they’re Altmer. Saying the Direnni aren’t Altmer would be like saying the Graymanes aren’t Nords.

I never said that dragonborns couldn't be of non-human races just that they're a human religious concept. If you have any source mentionning elven, khajiti, argonian or whatever religious stuff pertaining to dragonborn, I'm eager to read about it.

I did, I mentioned the Tsaesci.

Did anybody say they were?

Yeah, you did.

Well I think only the Nords have legends about Thu'um wielding dragonborns like Wulfarth or Miraak. The "Impearial" dragonborns like Alessia, Reman and Tiber are also more a human thing. The Tsaesci knew of the dragonborns you're right, but wether they were non-humans is really unclear, some sources describe them as being asian-looking humans and the ghosts we see in Oblivion looked human enough.

For me, the important thing is that they do not lower the importance of the actions of the Nerevarine and the Champion of Cyrodiil in, respectively, destroying the power of Almsivi and restoring the Fires, both things that keep Oblivion away. (I also don't think mountains and towers in the same category make much sense.)

I gather the purpose of the Towers is less ‘fend off armies of Daedra’ and more like draining a swamp by digging channels so the water and land are separate. It also might help to note that just prior to the Merethic Era (when the Towers were built) was the Dawn Era, when things like linear time had yet to be hammered out. The Towers are as much metaphysical as physical.

Spoiler

Show

and cults of Molag Bal in four provinces have released statements distancing themselves from the author, who goes simply by the name of "Loremaster Lawrence."

Nice!

[Rater202]

...Shouldn't defeating Potema Septim have given us a Dragon Soul? She was coming back to life and we re-killed her.

She's a descendent of Tiber Septim and my understanding is that all of his descendants were Dragonborn just as he was. That should mean that she had a Dragon Soul.

Does the whole "coming back as a ghost in an attempt to return to true life" thing corrupt the dragon soul or something?

[Keltest]

...Shouldn't defeating Potema Septim have given us a Dragon Soul? She was coming back to life and we re-killed her.

She's a descendent of Tiber Septim and my understanding is that all of his descendants were Dragonborn just as he was. That should mean that she had a Dragon Soul.

Does the whole "coming back as a ghost in an attempt to return to true life" thing corrupt the dragon soul or something?

My guess is that her soul was damaged in some manner by the incomplete ritual. It's also possible that dragonborn lose their draconic blessing when they die, which is why we don't have Septims resurrecting each other with the Voice every so often.

[Rater202]

My guess is that her soul was damaged in some manner by the incomplete ritual. It's also possible that dragonborn lose their draconic blessing when they die, which is why we don't have Septims resurrecting each other with the Voice every so often.

...I don't think you can just change a soul's fundamental nature like that.

And I dont' recall any Septim's but Tiber using the Thu'um so they can't shout each other back to life...

[Keltest]

...I don't think you can just change a soul's fundamental nature like that.

And I dont' recall any Septim's but Tiber using the Thu'um so they can't shout each other back to life...

Why not? The Champion of Cyrodiil became a daedra. And if all Septims are dragonborn, then they can all use the Voice, even if they didn't end up doing so.

[Rater202]

Why not? The Champion of Cyrodiil became a daedra. And if all Septims are dragonborn, then they can all use the Voice, even if they didn't end up doing so.

1: The Champion of Cyrodiil became a Deadra by mantling that Deadra and then taking that Deadra's position when said Deadra wasn't there anymore, thus gaining that Deadra's power.

And Strictly speaking, Jyggalag isn't sure if you're actually a Deadra

I will take my leave, and you will remain here, mortal. Mortal...? King? God? It seems uncertain. This Realm is yours. Perhaps you will grow to your station. Fare thee well, Sheogorath. Prince of Madness."

The New Sheogorath could simply be an exceptionally powerful and undying mortal taking the place of a prince rather than a proper Deadra.

Going out of your way to become a God is different from the fundamental nature of your soul changing automatically after death.

2: You need to know the shouts to use the shouts. Tiber Septin learned Thu'um from the Greybeards who lived during his time, but the Septims after him are not known to have learned the Thu'um.

Bringing a dragon back to life is a Shout. You need to know the Shout to use it.

[Keltest]

1: The Champion of Cyrodiil became a Deadra by mantling that Deadra and then taking that Deadra's position when said Deadra wasn't there anymore, thus gaining that Deadra's power.

And Strictly speaking, Jyggalag isn't sure if you're actually a DeadraThe New Sheogorath could simply be an exceptionally powerful and undying mortal taking the place of a prince rather than a proper Deadra.

Going out of your way to become a God is different from the fundamental nature of your soul changing automatically after death.

2: You need to know the shouts to use the shouts. Tiber Septin learned Thu'um from the Greybeards who lived during his time, but the Septims after him are not known to have learned the Thu'um.

Bringing a dragon back to life is a Shout. You need to know the Shout to use it.

If you need more examples, Tiber Septim achieved apotheosis directly, and Mannimarco achieved... something... that affected his soul and left at least part of him a god.

[Fyraltari]

Except, again, they didn’t make Adamantine. It’s the oldest structure on Nirn, and all the Towers the mer made were made in mimicry of it, to a greater or lesser degree. It was made by the Aedra.

As was Red Tower. Didn't stop the Chimer.
Not sure wether Snow-Throat and Green-Sap were created by the Falmer and Bosmer repsectively either.

And since when do the Maormer have a Tower?

They don't, that was poor wording on my part.

So, to answer your question: they’re Altmer. Saying the Direnni aren’t Altmer would be like saying the Graymanes aren’t Nords.

Okay.

I did, I mentioned the Tsaesci.

Who are humans, or at least the army that knelt before Reman had human officers. So that hardly refutes my point. Especially since my original point was that Elves don't have myths about the dragonborns.



[Quote]Yeah, you did.[quote]
I think there's a miscommunication here. What in that sentence makes you think I was saying these characters weren't dragonborns?

...Shouldn't defeating Potema Septim have given us a Dragon Soul? She was coming back to life and we re-killed her.

She's a descendent of Tiber Septim and my understanding is that all of his descendants were Dragonborn just as he was. That should mean that she had a Dragon Soul.

Does the whole "coming back as a ghost in an attempt to return to true life" thing corrupt the dragon soul or something?

There's a bit of a confusion here. Dragonborn has two meanings: having a dragon soul or having the dragon's blood.

Having a dragon's soul means you can absorb dovah's soul and all, but having the dragon's blood just means you can/are fulfilling Alessia's covenant with Akatosh and lit the dragonfires. Because the Last Dragonborn was able to use their blood to enter the ancient dragonguard fortress it seems like having a dragon's soul also means you have the dragon's blood by default but we don't know that the converse is true.

We also don't know wether one is born a dragonborn (ironically) of either kind or becomes one when blessed by Akatosh, in the case of the dragon's blood during the crowning ceremony.

Further muddying the issue, we know that Reman and Tiber Septim were dragonborns of the dragon soul variety even though they used their dragon's blood to wear the Amulet of Kings and become Emperors.

It's unclear if Alessia was also a "full dragonborn" (soul and all) or if she just picked the name for propaganda points with the Nords.

So, to recap: all Cyrodiilic Emperors are dragonborns in the sense that they have the dragon's blood, but only two, Tiber Septim and Reman Cyrodiil are confirmed to have had dragon souls. We do not know if the non-crowned emperors had the dragon's blood too, but in any case Potema being a Septim does not mean she had a dragon soul which explains why we don't absorb her soul when she dies.

[Rater202]

If you need more examples, Tiber Septim achieved apotheosis directly, and Mannimarco achieved... something... that affected his soul and left at least part of him a god.

Tiberseptim was Dragonborn, that''s just an Aedra becoming a more powerful Aedra, and he may or may not have fused with two-other Dragonborn to do it.

Manimarco is more complicated, but we're not talking about becoming Gods.

We're talking about changing the fundamental nature of the soul.

There's nothing that suggests that can happen that can't be explained otherwise, and nothing that suggests that it's a thing that just happens when you die.

[Triaxx]

The vampire thing is explained in game in the book Immortal Blood: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Immortal_Blood

[Fyraltari]

Immortal Blood's description of the Volkihar does not match the Volkihar - or any other vampires - as they appear in Skyrim

Ignoring the obvious explanation that Skyrim's Volkihar are a bit retconny, this actually makes a lot of sense. The author of Immortal Blood is strongly implied to have deliberately mislead Morvarth Piquine hoping he'd get killed (notice how every time Piquine comes back to him he had a close call because of some missing or faulty information about the vampires the narrator gave him and that the person who pointed him to the narrator (and so presumably also relied on his advice) was killed by a vampire?) so it makes sense that he'd do the same to the reader and give false information in his book.

If you need more examples, Tiber Septim achieved apotheosis directly, and Mannimarco achieved... something... that affected his soul and left at least part of him a god.

Also older lore has Ar'kay, Ebonarm and Sai as ascended mortals, while newer lore gives us the Ideal Masters. Plus of course, Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal leeaching off of Lorkhan's power. And that's not counting Auri-el and the rest of the Altmer Pantheon. Oh and Rahjin the thief. Does Tosh Raka count too?

Man, all the cool kids are turning into gods.

[Rater202]

Ignoring the obvious explanation that Skyrim's Volkihar are a bit retconny, this actually makes a lot of sense. The author of Immortal Blood is strongly implied to have deliberately mislead Morvarth Piquine hoping he'd get killed (notice how every time Piquine comes back to him he had a close call because of some missing or faulty information about the vampires the narrator gave him and that the person who pointed him to the narrator (and so presumably also relied on his advice) was killed by a vampire?) so it makes sense that he'd do the same to the reader and give false information in his book.

Yeah, Immortal Blood isn't presented as an encyclopedia of vampires, it's presented as a guy telling another dude what he knows about vampires.

And then at the end the narrator is revealed to be a vampire and attacks Morvarth.

...and in Skyrim, you fight a Vampire named Morvarth, who has a copy of Immortal Blood in his lair. Poor Morvarth, became what he hated.

[veti]

Objectively false.

Strong words. Let's see you back them up.

You may remember that a significant part of the main questline of the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim and it's DLC Dawnguard requires you to find and read The Elder Scroll of Dragons.

Absolutely, yes.

Part of finding this Scroll, unless you abuse an exploit, requires you to talk to Urag gro-Shub. The Librarian at the Arcanum of the College of Winterhold.

Ah, right. This is the misunderstanding right here. The option to bypass Urag is not an exploit or a glitch, it's just one of the ways the game can unfold.

If Bethesda didn't intend for that to be possible, they could have locked the door of Septimus's outpost until you had spoken to Urag. Or they could have simply not given him the dialogue you needed, until you had reached the appropriate quest stage. It's trivial to do either of these, they're both common devices for keeping players on the rails, used in scores of other quests.

But they didn't do it. This is a completely valid way to complete the quest, without mods, exploits or cheating. That's the opposite of "objectively false".

[Rater202]

Here's the thing: Nothing in the game tells you to go talk to that guy, to find him.

In-Universe, the Dragonborn has no idea this fellow is there until they talk to Urag, who tells them to find him.

Going straight to him without talking to Urag is either a glitch(because you're prompting the game to skip over a quest flag) or an oversight on the part of the developers when programming the game.

You are instructed to talk to Urag. Urag tells you that the guy is there.

Ergo, you must have spoken to Urag.

[Keltest]

Here's the thing: Nothing in the game tells you to go talk to that guy, to find him.

In-Universe, the Dragonborn has no idea this fellow is there until they talk to Urag, who tells them to find him.

Going straight to him without talking to Urag is either a glitch(because you're prompting the game to skip over a quest flag) or an oversight on the part of the developers when programming the game.

You are instructed to talk to Urag. Urag tells you that the guy is there.

Ergo, you must have spoken to Urag.

Or you just explored and got lucky. The game makes allowances for that in several quests. Heck, theres a brief special dialogue if you explored Bleak Falls Barrow and got the Dragonstone for Farengar before he asks you to.

[Rater202]

Or you just explored and got lucky. The game makes allowances for that in several quests. Heck, theres a brief special dialogue if you explored Bleak Falls Barrow and got the Dragonstone for Farengar before he asks you to.

Yeah, but there's a sidequest in Riverwood where you can talk to the guy who originally owned the Golden Claw, and that sidequest has the objective of "find the secret of Bleak Falls Barrow" after getting the claw. And when you escape Helgen, Bleakfalls Barrow is pointed out to you on the ways to town.

It is entirely possible to organically go to Bleakfalls Barrow before heading to Whiterun, when you really have ee no reason at all to go anywhere near this guy unless and until you're told to look for him... Which only happens after talking to Urag gro-Shub.

Who you are explicitly instructed to seek out, and who has extended dialog talking about finding the elder scrolls.

At absolute most, being able to bypass joining the college is an easter egg in for speedrunners.

The main quest instructs you to join the college and speak to Urag, therefore that is obviously the intended way to progress the quest. It is safe to assume that this is canon.

[halfeye]

Yeah, but there's a sidequest in Riverwood where you can talk to the guy who originally owned the Golden Claw, and that sidequest has the objective of "find the secret of Bleak Falls Barrow" after getting the claw. And when you escape Helgen, Bleakfalls Barrow is pointed out to you on the ways to town.

It is entirely possible to organically go to Bleakfalls Barrow before heading to Whiterun, when you really have ee no reason at all to go anywhere near this guy unless and until you're told to look for him... Which only happens after talking to Urag gro-Shub.

Who you are explicitly instructed to seek out, and who has extended dialog talking about finding the elder scrolls.

At absolute most, being able to bypass joining the college is an easter egg in for speedrunners.

The main quest instructs you to join the college and speak to Urag, therefore that is obviously the intended way to progress the quest. It is safe to assume that this is canon.

I did once find that guy by accident while I was exploring, I think I thought he was talking gibberish, but I did find him.