The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[Rater202]

I did once find that guy by accident while I was exploring, I think I thought he was talking gibberish, but I did find him.

Okay, but what makes for a better story?

The Dragonborn seeking the consul of the librarian of a premier college of wizards for knowledge of a rare arcane artifact that he needs for his quest and said Wizard-Librarian directing him to the expert...

Or the Dragonborn randomly stumbling across what appears to be a rambling Mad Man while spelunking because they got bored and wandered off?

[Caelestion]

It's not safe to assume that anything is really canon in TES, or, if I'm going to be cynical, any exact progression of events in a story as lazily written as Skyrim's.

[Lord Raziere]

It's not safe to assume that anything is really canon in TES, or, if I'm going to be cynical, any exact progression of events in a story as lazily written as Skyrim's.

There are more successful franchises that have been built on flimsier worldbuilding. Just be glad we have crazy deep lore and strange explanations to discuss rather than the nintendo methodology of "cut anything thats not the core gameplay loop".

[veti]

You can find lots of things by exploring randomly. There's a dialogue option specifically to give Farengar the dragonstone as soon as he mentions it, because you've already retrieved it. You can find Wylandriah's items without knowing whose they are. All three of the quest instruments for the barda' college can be picked up at random. And the pieces of Mehrunes' razor.

"Finding stuff by accident" is absolutely part of the game. Where Bethesda doesn't want you to do this, it's not shy about getting as arbitrary as it needs to stop you. (Ever visited Orphan Rock before speaking to Danica? I have. Or Glenmoril Coven before the Companions' quest sends you there? Or Ilinata Deep, or...)

If you have got far enough in either Dawnguard or the main quest to know you need an Elder Scroll, then you happen to be exploring the northern wastes for whatever reason and stumble upon the outpost (easy enough to do, the map marker makes it highly visible from a fair distance) - inside, you will find a copy of the "Ruminations" book. That's your clue that this guy knows something about the scrolls, so why not ask him?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

...Shouldn't defeating Potema Septim have given us a Dragon Soul? She was coming back to life and we re-killed her.

She's a descendent of Tiber Septim and my understanding is that all of his descendants were Dragonborn just as he was. That should mean that she had a Dragon Soul.

Does the whole "coming back as a ghost in an attempt to return to true life" thing corrupt the dragon soul or something?

From what I could tell in ESO (wherein your character gets their soul stolen as part of the original main quest and replaced with Daedric goo) the personality is either separate from the soul or a distinct but removable piece depending on how you look at it. Kind of like the shell of a nut.

Maybe the ‘meat’ of her soul is still in whatever afterlife and they only summoned the ‘shell’.

Or someone remind me, did she ever actually wear the Amulet of Kings? Maybe she was never Dragonborn, and just happened to be related (maybe it’s a dominate gene and she got stuck with two recessives?).

Alternatively, the coders didn’t think it through that far.

...I don't think you can just change a soul's fundamental nature like that.

We’ve got at least two instances of mortals becoming Daedra in ESO: High Kinlord Rilis (final boss of the Banished Cells, was originally an Altmer) and waves of mooks in one of the Dragonstar arena levels.

[Taevyr]

You can find lots of things by exploring randomly. There's a dialogue option specifically to give Farengar the dragonstone as soon as he mentions it, because you've already retrieved it. You can find Wylandriah's items without knowing whose they are. All three of the quest instruments for the barda' college can be picked up at random. And the pieces of Mehrunes' razor.

"Finding stuff by accident" is absolutely part of the game. Where Bethesda doesn't want you to do this, it's not shy about getting as arbitrary as it needs to stop you. (Ever visited Orphan Rock before speaking to Danica? I have. Or Glenmoril Coven before the Companions' quest sends you there? Or Ilinata Deep, or...)

If you have got far enough in either Dawnguard or the main quest to know you need an Elder Scroll, then you happen to be exploring the northern wastes for whatever reason and stumble upon the outpost (easy enough to do, the map marker makes it highly visible from a fair distance) - inside, you will find a copy of the "Ruminations" book. That's your clue that this guy knows something about the scrolls, so why not ask him?

Not to mention that the sole way to start one of the Daedric Quests is to randomly find a giant gem followed by "ANOTHER HAND TOUCHES THE BEACON". Or Calcelmo sending you a message when you pick up any dwarven thing, whether you actually got it from a ruin, killed a bandit for it, or literally bought it in a shop in Markarth. Randomly picking up something/running into someone to kick of a plot is used more than a few times in Skyrim, and present in various older stories as well.

We’ve got at least two instances of mortals becoming Daedra in ESO: High Kinlord Rilis (final boss of the Banished Cells, was originally an Altmer) and waves of mooks in one of the Dragonstar arena levels.

If I remember correctly, there was a region main villain in the Ebonheart storyline that did so as well, but it's been years since I played ESO so I might be wrong.

[Rater202]

You can find lots of things by exploring randomly. There's a dialogue option specifically to give Farengar the dragonstone as soon as he mentions it, because you've already retrieved it. You can find Wylandriah's items without knowing whose they are. All three of the quest instruments for the barda' college can be picked up at random. And the pieces of Mehrunes' razor.

"Finding stuff by accident" is absolutely part of the game. Where Bethesda doesn't want you to do this, it's not shy about getting as arbitrary as it needs to stop you. (Ever visited Orphan Rock before speaking to Danica? I have. Or Glenmoril Coven before the Companions' quest sends you there? Or Ilinata Deep, or...)

If you have got far enough in either Dawnguard or the main quest to know you need an Elder Scroll, then you happen to be exploring the northern wastes for whatever reason and stumble upon the outpost (easy enough to do, the map marker makes it highly visible from a fair distance) - inside, you will find a copy of the "Ruminations" book. That's your clue that this guy knows something about the scrolls, so why not ask him?

You are directed to talk to the Orc. The Orc tells you about the guy.

Ergo, talking to the Orc is the intended way of starting the quest.

Now, "Discerning the Transmundane" and "Elder Knowledge" are techncially separate quests even though one requires starting or having already done the other, but...

But, incidentally, checking the wiki, if you haven't met Septimus and find a copy of Ruminations on the Elder Scrolls, the game starts the quest Discerning the Transmundane and gives you the objective to ask Urag about this weird book and he directs you to Septimus.

So, both the main quest and the side quest involve Urag by default, only skipping him if you've managed to stumble across the one specific cave Septimus is camped out in.

It very much seems to be that the intended gameplay path is "you join the college and ask the Librarian about the guy, Librarian tells you where to find him" with the option to skip the early stages either being an oversight or an easter egg for speedrunners.

Or maybe they don't want you to be locked into doing the main quest if you're trying to collect all the Deadric artifacts.

Now, as I said, Bleakfalls Barrow is pointed out to us as we pass it for the first time making our way from Helgen to Riverwood, and the shopkeeper in Riverwood's prized possession, a golden dragon claw, was stolen by bandits heading to the Barrow and he gives you a sidequest to go get it back if you talk to him. Once you get the claw back, doing this quest, instead of going back right away the Quest directs you to use the claw to discover the secrets of the Barrow, giving you the Dragonbstone and the word Fus.

There's a dialog for if you already have the Dragonstone because the game suggests that you check out the barrow and gives you a sidequest to check out the barrow well before you are instructed to go there as part of the main quest.

Is there a special Dialog with Paarthurnaax to say that you've already got an Elder Scroll when he tells you you need one?

[Fyraltari]

Or someone remind me, did she ever actually wear the Amulet of Kings? Maybe she was never Dragonborn, and just happened to be related (maybe it’s a dominate gene and she got stuck with two recessives?).

Nope but her son did. Also I just remembered that Uriel Septim isn't even related to to Tiber Septim and that a Dark Elf was Empress at some point so yeah, it looks like the dragon's blood isn't hereditary. You get it when you light the dragonfires/are recognized Emperor.

[Aeson]

Nope but her son did. Also I just remembered that Uriel Septim isn't even related to to Tiber Septim and that a Dark Elf was Empress at some point so yeah, it looks like the dragon's blood isn't hereditary. You get it when you light the dragonfires/are recognized Emperor.

The Dark Elf Empress was Katariah, wife and successor of Pelagius III 'the Mad;' their son Cassynder would succeed her, and he in turn would be succeeded by his half-brother and adoptive son Uriel IV. If you believe Notes on Racial Phylogeny, that means that both Cassynder and Uriel IV were likely Dark Elves in appearance, though both of them were half-human and appear to have had lifespans more typical for TES humans than TES elves (~50-60 years for Cassynder depending on when during his parents' marriage he was born, and not more than a century for Uriel IV given that he was born after Cassynder).

Uriel Septim IV also appears to be the only Uriel Septim who wasn't a blood relative of Tiber Septim, as Uriel Septim V, VI, and VII are descendents of Cephorus II, who A Brief History of the Empire describes as "a cousin more closely related to the original Septim line [than Uriel IV's son Andorak]," implying some degree of blood relation, while Uriel Septim I, II, and III are a grandnephew, great grandnephew, and great-great-great-great grandnephew of Tiber Septim, respectively.

[Fyraltari]

Uriel Septim IV also appears to be the only Uriel Septim who wasn't a blood relative of Tiber Septim, as Uriel Septim V, VI, and VII are descendents of Cephorus II, who A Brief History of the Empire describes as "a cousin more closely related to the original Septim line [than Uriel IV's son Andorak]," implying some degree of blood relation, while Uriel Septim I, II, and III are a grandnephew, great grandnephew, and great-great-great-great grandnephew of Tiber Septim, respectively.

But none of them are descended from Tiber Septim but from his brother Agnorith Septim* who was (most likely) not Dragonborn, so it still seems like dragon's blood is not hereditary.


*Do we have any info on that guy, by the way? Brother to freaking Talos Stormcrown, does he appear in any text?

[Eldan]

Basically nothing, from what I remember. From a cursory online search...

Brief History of the Empire seems to be the only book that mentions him, and it's one sentence. It only says that he was the father of the future Empress Kintyra and Tiber's brother, no mention of his life or character at all.

I mean, r/teslore is doing their thing and claiming that Agnorith is totally a Bosmer name and therefore he's actually the Underking in disguise, but that's just teslore being teslore.

The going theory on Dragonblood is that you get it when you light the dragonfires in the right way.

Which is also weird, of course, because you need Dragonblood to light them.

[Fyraltari]

Basically nothing, from what I remember. From a cursory online search...

Brief History of the Empire seems to be the only book that mentions him, and it's one sentence. It only says that he was the father of the future Empress Kintyra and Tiber's brother, no mention of his life or character at all.

Yeah, I guess out of universe they don't want to clarify Tiber's backstory and in universe he just never did anything remarkable (must be hard having a brother like his).

Might make for a funny fan-fic, though.
"Wait, Hjalti, slow down, now we're going to tell people we're from Atmora but at the same time take an Imperial name? Arf, why must you always rope me into your hare-brained schemes? Mum and Dad were right you know, you'll end up in trouble if you keep going like that."

I mean, r/teslore is doing their thing and claiming that Agnorith is totally a Bosmer name

Wouldn't be the last Septim with elven blood.

and therefore he's actually the Underking in disguise, but that's just teslore being teslore.

Of course, of course, why not?!

The going theory on Dragonblood is that you get it when you light the dragonfires in the right way.

Which is also weird, of course, because you need Dragonblood to light them.

Yeah, they don't really make sense. Like how come there wasn't a Daedric invasion between the First and Second Empire? Or under the Akaviri Potentates?

Maybe Akatosh has just been ****ing with the mortals all along.

[Keltest]

Yeah, they don't really make sense. Like how come there wasn't a Daedric invasion between the First and Second Empire? Or under the Akaviri Potentates?

Maybe Akatosh has just been ****ing with the mortals all along.

Oblivion and ESO both indicate that you at least need a few willing mortals in place to actually open the gates and initiate the invasion. There may simply not have been any groups in position to actually act on it at the time, especially because the Allessian Empire was founded on the idea of "daedra worship bad!" and so would go very far out of its way to eliminate any and all daedric cults. The Reman and Septim Empires both had other external enemies to focus their attentions on.

[LibraryOgre]

The going theory on Dragonblood is that you get it when you light the dragonfires in the right way.

Which is also weird, of course, because you need Dragonblood to light them.

Ah, but Akatosh is time, so if you light the Dragonfires the right way, you got the dragonblood you needed to light the fires before you lit the fires.

[Resileaf]

Ah, but Akatosh is time, so if you light the Dragonfires the right way, you got the dragonblood you needed to light the fires before you lit the fires.

So basically, Akatosh is retroactively having sex with your mom.

Neat.

[Fyraltari]

So basically, Akatosh is retroactively having sex with your mom.

Neat.

Akatosh: I know that sounds gross but believe you me it's either that or a pile of mud.

[Vinyadan]

Ah, but Akatosh is time, so if you light the Dragonfires the right way, you got the dragonblood you needed to light the fires before you lit the fires.

That doesn't strike me as very Akatosh (well, the one I imagine) -- I've always seen Akatosh as the guardian of orderly linear time to which he and all other creatures are bound, contrasted to the chaotic pull of the Daedra.

But then there are dragon breaks, and maybe those could give an answer.

I have to admit, I don't really like the idea of gods having children in a physical sense. But Akatosh's planet could influence people, if conditions are met.

[Rater202]

That doesn't strike me as very Akatosh (well, the one I imagine) -- I've always seen Akatosh as the guardian of orderly linear time to which he and all other creatures are bound, contrasted to the chaotic pull of the Daedra.

But then there are dragon breaks, and maybe those could give an answer.

I have to admit, I don't really like the idea of gods having children in a physical sense. But Akatosh's planet could influence people, if conditions are met.

I distinctly recall Akatosh being described as 'Insane' or 'Mad' at least once, and I'm pretty sure that Parthurnax describes dragons as having a non-linear perception of Time.

Speaking of Mad gods, The Shivering Isles had this thing that I think was a really clever way of illustrating how the PC is either going insane or becoming more understanding of Madness.

The character of Bolwing in Crucible is a lunatic who speaks complete gibberish unless you have a specific amulet that you get as part of a sidequest... Except his gibberish gets slightly clear as you progress the Shivering isles Main Quest and becomes perfectly understandable whether you have the amulet or not once you complete the main quest and fully mantle Sheogorath.

It's very subtle, really only noticeable if you regularly talk to this one NPC who has little to no bearing on the main quest and is only involved in one sidequest, but I think it illustrates very well tha the Hero of Kvatch is going slightly mad as they spend time in the Isles.

[Eldan]

Akatosh: I know that sounds gross but believe you me it's either that or a pile of mud.

What, no. Sex with landscape features is Reman's thing.

[Fyraltari]

What, no. Sex with landscape features is Reman's thing.

Well, Alessia's/Hrol's.

The joke being, Akatosh considered his options and decided to reverse-casuality ****ery would be a cleaner way to spawn a hero. I could have worded that better, mind.

[veti]

You are directed to talk to the Orc. The Orc tells you about the guy.

Ergo, talking to the Orc is the intended way of starting the quest.

You're also directed to talk to Brynjolf to find Esbern. The only way Brynjolf will tell you anything is if you go through his initiation quest. Does that mean you're also "canonically" a member of the Thieves' Guild?

But, incidentally, checking the wiki, if you haven't met Septimus and find a copy of Ruminations on the Elder Scrolls, the game starts the quest Discerning the Transmundane and gives you the objective to ask Urag about this weird book and he directs you to Septimus.

There are only three copies of "Ruminations" in the game. Urag has one, and Septimus himself has the other two. (Evidently it didn't sell well.) So if you read it, you're likely already in the presence of one or the other.

Is there a special Dialog with Paarthurnaax to say that you've already got an Elder Scroll when he tells you you need one?

Hey, you said you were checking the wiki already. Apparently, that option is covered.

[Rater202]

You're also directed to talk to Brynjolf to find Esbern. The only way Brynjolf will tell you anything is if you go through his initiation quest. Does that mean you're also "canonically" a member of the Thieves' Guild?

Yes, yes it does.

In general, everything but the companions has references to either the Main Questline or the one of the other faction quests, and in order to master every shout you have to do every faction questline, excepting the Dark Brotherhood where yu can still get their shout if you elect to destroy them instead.

Everything points to the Dragonborn canonically joining multiple factions.

Hey, you said you were checking the wiki already. Apparently, that option is covered.

1: Was checking a different wiki.

2: That doesn't say that you get special dialog if you already have the scroll. That says that automatically completes Elder Knowledge.

It does, however, say that you et special dialog if you've already met Urag, so...

[Taevyr]

There's two dialogue options listed: one is that Urog can point you towards an Elder Scroll if you already visited him, the other that you already have one and all dialogue is simply skipped completely. But I agree that generally, the quest design does seem to implicate that you supposedly talked to Urog before reaching Septimus.

And while I'm not about to dictate which wiki you use/prefer (you do you), I'll always recommend UESP as the best resource when it comes to TES lore. Besides the sheer amount of lore present, it's also far better written and edited than the wikia, in my experience.

[Triaxx]

Paarthunax: You'll need an Elder Scroll.
Dovahkiin, emptying bag: Which one?

[Rater202]

So I'm watching a Skyrim let's play from a little while back and when doing the Laid to Rest quest the player points out that Helgi is just standing there in plain sight. There's no load in for her, anybody who poked around the house would have seen her.

And we know that it doesn't take anything special to see ghosts, people all across the games have interacted with ghosts to various degrees.

So it raises the question: If you want to know what happened why don't you ask the ghost of the murder victim?

I know that the Dragonborn is supposed to be able to see things that most mortals can't(why they, and they alone, notice the glowing of Vampire Eyes once Dawguard is installed, IIRC,) but Ghosts are not one of those things you need special powers to see.

Are we meant to assume that Helgi is a special exception that only the Dragonborn can see or are the townsfolk of Morthol just kind of useless?

[veti]

So I'm watching a Skyrim let's play from a little while back and when doing the Laid to Rest quest the player points out that Helgi is just standing there in plain sight. There's no load in for her, anybody who poked around the house would have seen her.

If you go to the house before talking to the jarl and taking the quest, she's not there. (Yes, I've done that. I'm a curious person.) So she must "load in" at some point.

As for asking her - as I recall it, you do kinda ask for her help, but she's not very coherent. Which is understandable, since she's (a) a kid, barely old enough to understand what happened, (b) dead, and has other things on her mind, and (c) was (presumably) asleep in bed when the fire started so what the heck would she know anyway?

To your last point - everyone in Skyrim is "kind of useless". The guards in Shor's Stone can't even be bothered to kill a half-dozen spiders. (I managed to get one of them to come inside with me once, by entering while he was talking to me - and he had no trouble killing every last one of them. It's not the danger, or lack of ability - it's pure apathy.) The guards in Windhelm can't be bothered to look for a murderer, or to stake out a house where everyone and her dog knows a kid is performing the BS. The guards in Riften can't even prevent a fully armed and uniformed Thalmor hit squad from entering the city. And so on, and on.

[Grim Portent]

As I recall Helgi loads in immediately upon you leaving the Jarl's longhouse after agreeing to investigate. There is mention that the people of Morthal think the remains of the house are cursed and refuse to check it out, seeing Helgi's ghost and getting creeped out would be a reason for most people to refuse to get involved. Despite getting made much less dangerous in Skyrim ghosts are still meant to be dangerous and scary to normal people.

Given the characterization of Morthal there's only a handful of people who would be brave enough to investigate a haunted ruin and actually listen to a ghost. Falion, who the townsfolk don't trust, the Jarl herself who is somewhat infirm, and maybe her husband, daughter and housecarl who are more familiar with the more mystical things in the world due to their relationships with Idgrod but who aren't entirely trusted by the people for the same reason.

[factotum]

or to stake out a house where everyone and her dog knows a kid is performing the BS.

Is it actually technically illegal to perform the Black Sacrament, though? Sure, it can possibly lead to someone's death, but so can writing a note saying "KILL THIS PERSON FOR ME, 10000GP REWARD" and writing isn't illegal either.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Paarthunax: You'll need an Elder Scroll.
Dovahkiin, emptying bag: Which one?

I loved doing this to Martin back in Oblivion.

EDIT:

Is it actually technically illegal to perform the Black Sacrament, though? Sure, it can possibly lead to someone's death, but so can writing a note saying "KILL THIS PERSON FOR ME, 10000GP REWARD" and writing isn't illegal either.

The laws may have changed in the intervening 200 years, but in Oblivion one of the guys in prison with you at the start (not the obnoxious one) is in there for performing the Black Sacrament. The guy you kill for the Dark Brotherhood initiation was his mark.

[Rater202]

The ritual requires a piece of human flesh and a complete human skeleton.

In cyrodiil, the penalty or graverobbing is death, and presumably, you'd need to rob a grave to get it.

That Clausius Arcadia being in prison is honestly pretty light. Though considering the implications that Ruffio was raping the man's wife, daughter, or other female relative as he killed her(He says he had no choice but to murder her because she was struggling against him) and that Rufio escaped Imperial Justice they might have been lenient on a man forced to take desperate action.

Though Clausius's exact dialog is "So I wanted someone murdered! So I prayed to the Night Mother! What, is that a crime now? They even took my house, those bastards! Agghhh!" which implies that either he's highly ignorant of the law or that performing the Sacrament isn't actually a crime. Since you can go to his house and, if you go in, it's being used by the Imperial Legion so maybe the Sacrament is legal but distasteful up until it wasn't. We know from the Thieves Guild quests that the law enforcement in th Imperial City is a bit on the corrupt side. Could maybe be they just wanted a house for some reason.

And, considering that you can wear full Dark Brotherhood robes and/or armor without issue and the guards will only accost you if you actually get caught murdering someone or otherwise have a bounty...

Speaking of the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion, what was your favorite way to join? I was always partial to doing the Imperial Arena questline but also doing The Grey Prince's quest about hs origins. Complete his sidequest where he realizes that hes' half-vampire instead of being the son of an honorable noble and he'll ask you to kill him and just stand there and take it when you challenge him for the Grand Champion title. It counts as a murder, but no bounty for it.

...gotta wonder what the audience thought of that.

And then I go to sleep right there in the training room and Lucien Lachance is talking to me about becoming an Assassin while my manager is looking right at us.