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  1. - Top - End - #1021
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    The trouble with that is, it assumes Alduin is a moron. All he has to do is not attack the town and the DB would be killed, and he knows this. If the goal of his attack is to ensure the deaths of everyone there, then the level of his failure is truly astonishing. Lots of people escape Helgen, and it would have been even more if not for the DB making their way out.
    More then likely, Alduin didn't know the Dragonborn was on the chopping block. Dragons seem to be able to sense a Dragonborn. However, unless they trade words, dragons can't pinpoint their location. When Alduin returned, he and Paarthurnax had a 'vigorous debate', Alduin sensed another dragon and then went to investigate. Not seeing a dragon, he started attack indiscriminately, hoping to kill the dragonborn.

    If the player stays outside long enough, Alduin will cut them off and kill them.

    That's just a guess tho.
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  2. - Top - End - #1022
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Lurkmoar View Post
    More then likely, Alduin didn't know the Dragonborn was on the chopping block. Dragons seem to be able to sense a Dragonborn. However, unless they trade words, dragons can't pinpoint their location. When Alduin returned, he and Paarthurnax had a 'vigorous debate', Alduin sensed another dragon and then went to investigate. Not seeing a dragon, he started attack indiscriminately, hoping to kill the dragonborn.

    If the player stays outside long enough, Alduin will cut them off and kill them.

    That's just a guess tho.
    When Delphine starts demanding that you prove that you're the Dragonborn by going to the next revival site and killing the dragon as it comes out, Alduin's dragon-language dialog has him sought that you're the Dragonborn because he can't sense your dragon soul.
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  3. - Top - End - #1023
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    When Delphine starts demanding that you prove that you're the Dragonborn by going to the next revival site and killing the dragon as it comes out, Alduin's dragon-language dialog has him sought that you're the Dragonborn because he can't sense your dragon soul.
    On the other hand, he also immediately recognizes you as the claimant to the title, which would be a little unusual since this is the first time you encounter him after awakening and it is, theoretically, before your face becomes known across Skyrim for being the Dragonborn.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  4. - Top - End - #1024
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Who skims a huge amount of the profits to have high society dinners?
    That could have been a fun quest. Blackmail an Elder Councilor to send more help to Bruma, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    When Delphine starts demanding that you prove that you're the Dragonborn by going to the next revival site and killing the dragon as it comes out, Alduin's dragon-language dialog has him sought that you're the Dragonborn because he can't sense your dragon soul.
    My reading of that scene was that he’s mocking you; he knows you’re Dragonborn he just has no respect for you.

  5. - Top - End - #1025
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    ...Why was the Yellow team's Champion always hanging out in the Blue Team's room? You can never get to it and, in fact, there seems to only be the one door on the outside, but she and the Grand Champion are the only people there who aren't part of the Blue Team, and we can presume that the Grey Prince is there because he was Blue Team before becoming the Grand Champion.
    I don't think it can be taken for granted that the player-accessible Bloodworks is specifically the Blue Team's room - sure, it only connects to the Blue Team fighting pit entrance, but it wouldn't be the only time that something which should rationally exist within an area in the game does not, and the only two NPCs present with unambiguous team affiliations are Blue Team Gladiator and Yellow Team Champion; there's no good evidence regarding Agronak's original team affiliation as far as I know, Owyn's the "Arena Blademaster" rather than the "Blue Team Blademaster," Ysabel's the "Arena Battle Matron" rather than the "Blue Team Battle Matron," and no in-game dialogue or text of which I am aware suggest that there are multiple Arena Blademasters and Battle Matrons at any given point in time. Additionally, the walls of the player-accessible Bloodworks are decorated with nine Arena banners; five of these are yellow while four are blue, which seems oddly balanced if the room's specifically for the Blue Team.

  6. - Top - End - #1026
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    The trouble with that is, it assumes Alduin is a moron. All he has to do is not attack the town and the DB would be killed, and he knows this. If the goal of his attack is to ensure the deaths of everyone there, then the level of his failure is truly astonishing. Lots of people escape Helgen, and it would have been even more if not for the DB making their way out.
    Which is why the theory claims that the roar comes from Paarthurnax trying to warn the village. Alduin can't hear that Tullius is trying to hasten the executions to get rid of Ulfrik as quickly as possible. He doesn't know that the Imperials aren't going to cancel it and try to investigate what that roar is. And he most definitely doesn't know that the Dragonborn is the next one on the chopping block. All he knows is that Paarthurnax is interfering and he can't leave things to chance.

    The theory bases itself on Alduin clearly being seeking the Dragonborn during his attack. Staying out in the open too long results in death, there are a lot of close calls during the escape and when he locates the Dragonborn, he gleefully taunts them as he starts targetting them.

    It is ironic that it is his actions that ultimately save the Dragonborn from execution, of course. Maybe there's some divine interference going on there too.

  7. - Top - End - #1027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Which is why the theory claims that the roar comes from Paarthurnax trying to warn the village. Alduin can't hear that Tullius is trying to hasten the executions to get rid of Ulfrik as quickly as possible. He doesn't know that the Imperials aren't going to cancel it and try to investigate what that roar is. And he most definitely doesn't know that the Dragonborn is the next one on the chopping block. All he knows is that Paarthurnax is interfering and he can't leave things to chance.
    But he does leave everything very much to chance. We know that, at minimum, present in Helgen were: Tullius, Elenwen, Ulfric, the boy (Haming?) and his carer, Ralof and Hadvar, and all these people escaped. Probably several other unnamed people also escaped, because it would be a huge coincidence for all survivors to be so high profile.

    As you emerge from the tunnel at the end of the intro, you see Alduin flying off. We know from later encounters that he has excellent perception skills, but he either doesn't see you (or any other survivors) - or he just doesn't care. In any event, he doesn't care enough to hang around another hour or so and try to catch some of the survivors.

    This is simply not the attitude of one who is determined to make sure everyone dies.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Is it possssible that sensing a mortal with a dragon soul in Helgen, he was looking for Miraak? Like as far as he knows Miraak was a unique case and it probably took him a while to realize just how long it's been.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-05-18 at 05:22 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #1029
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    But he does leave everything very much to chance. We know that, at minimum, present in Helgen were: Tullius, Elenwen, Ulfric, the boy (Haming?) and his carer, Ralof and Hadvar, and all these people escaped. Probably several other unnamed people also escaped, because it would be a huge coincidence for all survivors to be so high profile.

    As you emerge from the tunnel at the end of the intro, you see Alduin flying off. We know from later encounters that he has excellent perception skills, but he either doesn't see you (or any other survivors) - or he just doesn't care. In any event, he doesn't care enough to hang around another hour or so and try to catch some of the survivors.

    This is simply not the attitude of one who is determined to make sure everyone dies.
    Alduin is not trying to kill everyone in Helgen though, he's trying to kill you specifically. He tries to destroy the castle on top of you when he feels you going underground (hence why it crumbles behind you as you escape) and when he stops sensing you because you're too far or something, he abandons his attack and leaves.

  10. - Top - End - #1030
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Alduin is both a coward, as accused by Paarthunax and Ohdaving, and immensely arrogant, he's very much the sort of person to leave you in a situation that might kill you and assume it will while he leaves, ostensibly to do more important things but actually because he's afraid of direct confrontation. He leaves Sahloknir to fight you alone at Kynesgrove, leaves you in Helgen as it burns, flees from the Throat of the World when faced wth Dragonrend, and if you encounter him ressurecting other dragons will leave them to fight you alone like he did at Kynesgrove.

    He presumably knows of the prophecy of his defeat, and being risk averse wants to circumvent the prophecy if he can within the limits of his own cowardice. As is often the case with prophecy stories, his attempts to head things off are part of what allow the prophecy to happen at all.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Ah yes the old: 'My enemy feeds and grows stronger on the souls of my minions so I will let them fight him instead of doing it myself with my indestructible soul' ploy
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    Ummm... did no one pay any credence to what I thought on why Alduin attacked Helgen? Or did it get lost at the end of the last page?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Ah yes the old: 'My enemy feeds and grows stronger on the souls of my minions so I will let them fight him instead of doing it myself with my indestructible soul' ploy
    He's a coward and the Dragonborn is the one person who can theoretically defeat him, throwing dragons at the problem is one of his only options without actually dragoning up and being brave. If he attacks directly he risks actual harm, if he attacks with hit and run tactics or indirect methods then he loses face in the eyes of the other dragons for being afraid of the Dragonborn, if he sends dragons he can kick the can down the road a bit while hoping an underling gets lucky and explain it as the Dragonborn being beneath his concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    Ummm... did no one pay any credence to what I thought on why Alduin attacked Helgen? Or did it get lost at the end of the last page?
    I do think you have something with him being there to prevent Ulfric's execution to prolong the civil war and get more souls to eat, but we don't know what Alduin actually knows at the time. Does he know Ulfric is the leader of the rebels? Does he even know there's a war on at the time he attacks Helgen? How long exactly has he been back by the time of the foiled execution?

    If he could still percieve things while in his time out, or has been back for a little while, then he'd probably be aware of the general circumstances and move to maintain the status quo that benefits him.

    If he's not aware of what's going on then throughout the province the only reason to show up at Helgen is the Dragonborn. Or generally being an *******, which is always an option with dragons.
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  14. - Top - End - #1034
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    What if the presence of Ulfric is part of what was throwing Alduin off?

    So, Alduin goes looking for the Dragonborn, who he can kinda sense over there. He gets close and... there's two of them. And he can't tell what's up, because one of them has The Voice, but the other one feels weird (Dragonborn, but no collected souls, yet). And, so, he tries to kill them... but there's too much chaos for him to focus on either of them.

    What route do you think Ulfric took out of Helgen?
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    What route do you think Ulfric took out of Helgen?
    There's a Stormcloak camp a short distance east of Helgen. My guess is that he headed to join up with them, and from there proceeded through the mountains to Ivarstead.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    What if the presence of Ulfric is part of what was throwing Alduin off?

    So, Alduin goes looking for the Dragonborn, who he can kinda sense over there. He gets close and... there's two of them. And he can't tell what's up, because one of them has The Voice, but the other one feels weird (Dragonborn, but no collected souls, yet). And, so, he tries to kill them... but there's too much chaos for him to focus on either of them.
    But Ulfric isn't dragonborn. The Voice is just a learned skill for him, he doesn't have any dragon souls.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But Ulfric isn't dragonborn. The Voice is just a learned skill for him, he doesn't have any dragon souls.
    As I've mentioned before, an experienced user of the Thu'um can feel the presence of words of power, and as demonstrated by the Greybeards and Parthurnax sharing their understanding of several words of power with the Dragonborn without him having to consume their souls(of which, only one is a dragonsoul,) understanding of the words is a tangible force. Since it looks almost the same as a soul mid absorption, it in and of itself might be made of the same metaphysical "substance" as a dragon's soul.

    In particular, the Greybeard are able to sense words of power from what would effectively be many hundreds of miles away.

    Ulfric knows two shouts: Unrelenting Force, of which he knows three words, and Disarm of which he knows... At least one word, and he understands those words

    Alduin may have sensed the presence of the last Dragonborn and the presence of several words of power and the understanding there off, but upon arriving at Helgen proper realized that those were two different individuals and went for a "kill everything" policy to make sure.
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  18. - Top - End - #1038
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Ah, that makes sense.
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    Playing Skyrim with a bunch of quest mods is hilarious sometimes, because you'll hit level 10 and suddenly there's two completely different zombie apocalypses, a vampire plague, dragon attacks, and a madwoman summoning daedra across the country all at once.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    I do think you have something with him being there to prevent Ulfric's execution to prolong the civil war and get more souls to eat, but we don't know what Alduin actually knows at the time. Does he know Ulfric is the leader of the rebels? Does he even know there's a war on at the time he attacks Helgen? How long exactly has he been back by the time of the foiled execution?

    If he could still percieve things while in his time out, or has been back for a little while, then he'd probably be aware of the general circumstances and move to maintain the status quo that benefits him.

    If he's not aware of what's going on then throughout the province the only reason to show up at Helgen is the Dragonborn. Or generally being an *******, which is always an option with dragons.
    Well, as someone mentioned earlier, Delphine stated that for a while dragon tombs had begun showing up empty. One can assume Alduin has been around for a while. Long enough to get a general consensus of what is going on in Skyrim. Also, the entire kingdom of Skyrim would be talking about how Ulfric killed the king by using the voice. I'm sure Alduin would have picked that up with his general information going on. Maybe even from some of the souls he began consuming that died in the war. So I'm sure he just figured out that the leader of the rebels, who can use the voice or atleast a few words, would sow enough confusion for him to run around and do what he wants and consume the extra souls for free that were dying in the civil war. Also the Thalmor were going to step in to save Ulfric for their own purposes to keep the war going. Why wouldn't Alduin step in to do the same for his dragon agenda?

    Also, is there something established that dragons can sense the souls of other dragons anywhere in the game? I was under the belief they didn't do to the first dragon you absorb coming to the realization you were dragonborn once you started absorbing his soul.
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  21. - Top - End - #1041
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    Also, is there something established that dragons can sense the souls of other dragons anywhere in the game? I was under the belief they didn't do to the first dragon you absorb coming to the realization you were dragonborn once you started absorbing his soul.
    Durnehviir seems to notice on some level (you can call him out on giving you a Dragon name without getting to the point where you yourself find out you’re Dragonborn and his response is "Forgive me, my instinct was to grant you this title. I am uncertain why. Perhaps one day it will become clear to both of us.") and Miraak definitely notices ("What? Who are you to dare set foot here? Ahh... You are Dragonborn. I can feel it. And yet...")

    My head-canon on the subject is that your soul gets more noticeable the more Dragon souls you absorb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Durnehviir seems to notice on some level (you can call him out on giving you a Dragon name without getting to the point where you yourself find out you’re Dragonborn and his response is "Forgive me, my instinct was to grant you this title. I am uncertain why. Perhaps one day it will become clear to both of us.") and Miraak definitely notices ("What? Who are you to dare set foot here? Ahh... You are Dragonborn. I can feel it. And yet...")

    My head-canon on the subject is that your soul gets more noticeable the more Dragon souls you absorb.
    Maybe the dragon at the tower just didn't catch on that this is what he felt. "Dragonborn? Nah man, there's no way, I'm probably just imagining things."

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Maybe the dragon at the tower just didn't catch on that this is what he felt. "Dragonborn? Nah man, there's no way, I'm probably just imagining things."
    The funny thing is that Mirulmnir (that dragon) is probably the one who, second only to Paarthurnax, has had the best oppurtunities to learn about dragonborns since the dragonguard file lists him as still alive and unaccounted for by the second Era. This implies he's actually managed to survive all this time by hiding only to go on a rampage once Alduin was back (meaning he would get resurrected if he'd get killed), only to become the Last Dragonborn's first soul-sandwich.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-05-19 at 12:53 PM.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Okay. So there might be something that allows dragons to sense other dragons. Still, Alduin's initial reason to go to Helgen was probably to free Ulfric. After all, you were just a nobody who hoped the border and got thrown in with the other rebels. When Alduin appeared, he may or may not have sense you. Maybe not because you hadn't absorbed a single dragon soul so maybe it was unnoticeable. On the chance that he did sense your soul among the crowd, that might have been that he reasoned that since Ulfric knew the ways of the Voice, it might be messing with his dragon souls sense and thought sensing you, that you were Ulfric. Maybe even intentionally avoiding killing you thinking you were Ulfric. But that is conjecture.

    I still think Alduin went to Helgen because he wanted to free Ulfric for his own purposes. Whether or not he realized a Dragonborn was around when he got there can be up for debate, but it wasn't the initial cause for him going there.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    No, Alduin clearly knows that there is a Dragonborn. If you stick outside too long, he finally locates you, taunts you and targets you to kill you.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    But does he attack you because you're the dragonborn or because you're standing in the open like an idiot?
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    No, Alduin clearly knows that there is a Dragonborn. If you stick outside too long, he finally locates you, taunts you and targets you to kill you.
    I've never seen that happen. Do you have a video clip of that?
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    I've never seen that happen. Do you have a video clip of that?
    The wiki confirms that he will attack you for real if you stay outside too long. But nothing about taunting or recognising you.

    Personally, I think there's a lot of overthinking going on here.

    Alduin emerges from the time wound at the Throat. Maybe he sees Paarthunax there and they exchange insults, maybe not - makes no real difference either way. Then he flaps off to look over his domain, and as luck would have it, he chances first on Helgen. He flies down and notices that instead of abasing themselves before him, the humans are actually showing every sign of readying weapons - so he decides to show them the error of their ways.

    At some stage he realises that the humans clearly haven't seen a dragon in a long time, and deduces that his followers are lying under these huge circular mounds that dot the landscape, conveniently obvious to aerial reconnaissance. Then he sets out to raise them. But even for him, raising a dead dragon takes a lot of effort, which is why it takes him so long and he flaps away after each one.

    Everything else comes down to timing. Why did Alduin appear exactly when he did? Meh, prophecy. The gods do that sort of thing all the time. (As evidenced by... Well, the whole of the rest of the game, really.) Why were Delphine and Farengar apparently already researching dragons? Coincidence. (It's clear from the early game dialogue that no other living dragons have been seen in living memory.) Also keep in mind the constraints of writing an open world game, where the player might head directly to Whiterun, but it's also perfectly possible they might not make it there for weeks - the dialogue has to be sufficiently vague that it makes some kind of sense either way.

    And that's all it is.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

  29. - Top - End - #1049
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Why were Delphine and Farengar apparently already researching dragons? Coincidence. (It's clear from the early game dialogue that no other living dragons have been seen in living memory.) Also keep in mind the constraints of writing an open world game, where the player might head directly to Whiterun, but it's also perfectly possible they might not make it there for weeks - the dialogue has to be sufficiently vague that it makes some kind of sense either way.
    I mean, even if you head straight there, due to the time crunch, it's almost certainly been at least a day since the attack, or most of one. Delphine had ample time to see Alduin come down, go "Oh ****", and run to Whiterun to talk to one of her contacts (Farengar) and ask him to look into it.

  30. - Top - End - #1050
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I mean, even if you head straight there, due to the time crunch, it's almost certainly been at least a day since the attack, or most of one. Delphine had ample time to see Alduin come down, go "Oh ****", and run to Whiterun to talk to one of her contacts (Farengar) and ask him to look into it.
    That doesn't check out, because Riverwood is still reeling from the sighting when you arrive, and delphine is still there.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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