The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[Rater202]

Nope:

67890

Uh, sorry,. Must be getting my lore mixed up.

In my defense, there's a hell of a lot of it.

[Fyraltari]

Uh, sorry,. Must be getting my lore mixed up.

In my defense, there's a hell of a lot of it.

Understandable. Have a nice day.
The Manifesto and Immortal Blood are our only lore sources of Cyrodiili vampires and frankly they don't really match what is shown in Oblivion (despite having been, to my knowledge, created for that very game)

The idea that these are just grandstanding by a random cyrodiili tribe or that the Order did exist but was destroyed a long time ago fits the evidence pretty well.

Personally, I'd like it better to be true, I find the idea of vampire-Illuminati very fun. Especially the bit where they are worried about the Glenmoril and Whet-fang.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

The Cyrodiil Vampyrum Order are said to worship Molag Bal and Clavicus Vile jointly. We don't see it in Oblivion, but then again we don't really see the Order in that game, just individual vampires. I think it's supposed to be a toss-up wether anu given vampire tribe worships Bal or not.

Lamae Bal and her clan don’t; she actively hates him (and Arkay, for letting Molly turn her in the first place). Initiation involves desecrating symbols of both.

[Resileaf]

Mind you, there is more than one type of vampirism in the Elder Scrolls. Oblivion vampirism doesn't have the same name as the vampirism that you get into other games.

[Divayth Fyr]

Mind you, there is more than one type of vampirism in the Elder Scrolls. Oblivion vampirism doesn't have the same name as the vampirism that you get into other games.

Actually Oblivion shares the name of the disease with Morrowind (Porphyric Hemophilia). Skyrim has Sanguinare Vampiris while ESO named it Noxiphilic Sanguivoria.

[Rater202]

I kind of want a storyline in a future ES title to be that there's some mad science(mad magika? Maybe a mad alchemist) type who is experimenting with isolating, modifying, and hybridizing various strains of the different vampire diseases to try and create a version that gives maximum advantage for minimal drawback.

Bonus points if you have the option to join them and collect resources for their experimentation, ranging from alchemy ingredients and magic items associated with dradra and the undead to hunting down various unique vampires in order to take "samples" for them cultivating in capstone quest with the reward f the PC turning into a vampire that's just objectively better than whatever the in-game random occurrence vampire is.

Sort of like being a vampire lord in Skyrim, except as the capstone of a quest instead of happening early on.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I kind of want a storyline in a future ES title to be that there's some mad science(mad magika? Maybe a mad alchemist) type who is experimenting with isolating, modifying, and hybridizing various strains of the different vampire diseases to try and create a version that gives maximum advantage for minimal drawback.

Bonus points if you have the option to join them and collect resources for their experimentation, ranging from alchemy ingredients and magic items associated with dradra and the undead to hunting down various unique vampires in order to take "samples" for them cultivating in capstone quest with the reward f the PC turning into a vampire that's just objectively better than whatever the in-game random occurrence vampire is.

Sort of like being a vampire lord in Skyrim, except as the capstone of a quest instead of happening early on.

This sounds amazing. I will add to it, however: the strains the mad alchemist is hybridizing should all (or at least most) exist in-game as something the player can also be infected with, like back in Morrowind and Daggerfall.

[Lord Raziere]

.....what even is a vampire without any of its weaknesses or need to drink blood? A person with enhanced durability/speed/strength package, some hypnosis powers, can turn into mist and/or bat, claws and undead-based immunities? gotta admit that becomes pretty much a random set of abilities without the hunting for blood to tie it all together, because with the bloodsucking, the abilities all make sense as a toolset to get the blood and defend themselves while they do it:
-the all-round enhancement package is just good for combat in general, there is a reason a lot of things in fiction have it.
-the hypnosis helps with doing it nonviolently so as to not cause an alarm
-the mist or bat form can either be used to get into places you normally can't or to get out of places you could potentially be trapped in
-claws are sometimes used as alternative means of sucking up blood through them and its good have to a sharp weapon on hand in a pinch.
-being undead protects you from poisons, disease, lack of air/water/food, aging so no need to worry about those except as keeping up appearances.

but while things would be a better without the weaknesses, at the same time you have to find another use for most of them, and you'll probably basically end up being just a generic strong-punch superhero with a couple extra tricks.

[Vinyadan]

I kind of want a storyline in a future ES title to be that there's some mad science(mad magika? Maybe a mad alchemist) type who is experimenting with isolating, modifying, and hybridizing various strains of the different vampire diseases to try and create a version that gives maximum advantage for minimal drawback.

Bonus points if you have the option to join them and collect resources for their experimentation, ranging from alchemy ingredients and magic items associated with dradra and the undead to hunting down various unique vampires in order to take "samples" for them cultivating in capstone quest with the reward f the PC turning into a vampire that's just objectively better than whatever the in-game random occurrence vampire is.

Sort of like being a vampire lord in Skyrim, except as the capstone of a quest instead of happening early on.

Now, if only Sinderion wasn't dead... or is he? Dun dun dunnn!!!

Plus, the Sarethi have odd eyes, if I recall correctly.

[veti]

Sort of like being a vampire lord in Skyrim, except as the capstone of a quest instead of happening early on.

Sounds like a mod to me. Bethesda aren't going to put enough time and effort into anything that's not "core" to the game, and this probably wouldn't make that cut. (Because the idea of playing as a vampire is is a huge turn off for some people.)

But there's no reason a modder couldn't do it right now. There are already a bunch of vampire overhauls, including at least one mod that lets you be both a vampire and a werewolf at the same time. All the mechanics are there, all it needs is a quest to tie them together.

[factotum]

but while things would be a better without the weaknesses, at the same time you have to find another use for most of them, and you'll probably basically end up being just a generic strong-punch superhero with a couple extra tricks.

That's pretty much how werewolves work in Daggerfall. They get massive bonuses to their physical stats which apply even if they're in human form, and all their disadvantages (not able to go into cities without being attacked, unable to access inventory etc) only apply to wolf mode, so 99% of the time it's just a flat bonus to be one. The only disadvantage you can't avoid is having to kill an NPC every now and again--however, because no-one links your wolf form to yourself *even if you transform right in front of them* you can just walk into a city as a human, wolf up, kill someone, run away, then turn back to human and no-one will ever know it was you wot done it.

[Rater202]

For the record, I wasn't saying "no weaknesses" I was saying "maximum strength for minimum weakness."

Like, you're still encouraged to drink blood on occasion, but imagining being at permanent stage 4 abilities but appearance and powers never progress beyond stage 1.

Or there are multiple strains of vampirism in the game like in Daggerfall or Morrowind, but the long-term questline strain gives you all or most of the combined benefits of the different kinds, but only the individual weaknesses.

Though no weaknesses could be an option, there's precedent for it: The Nerevarine wasn't so much cured of Corprus as much as the corprus in their body was altered to arrest its progression and remove its contagiousness and negative effects, leaving the Nerevarine biologically immortal and permanently enhanced.

Granted, its implied that this only happened either because you're the Nerevarine or because you've mantled them to the point of being close enough for the prophecy: Every other test subject died, but "there's something special about the player character that lets them get away with things others can't either generically or in specific" isn't exactly a thing and vampirism seems much easier to cure or modify than Corprus.

[Fyraltari]

Corprus was the work of Dagoth Ur while vampirism was a joint effort of Molag Bal and Vaernima* and I would expect Daedric Princes to have a better handle of things than the blueberry nutcase. It's worth noting that most cures for vampirism involve striking a bargain with Bal for him to remove the disease rather than purging it through mortal means.

That said it could be a rather nifty Daedric quest. Like, after you've gained a level as a vampire you are contacted in your dreams by Molag Bal, or summoned to an altar or whatever, and he tells you that a mortal dared, dared meddle with his Dark Gift and you are tasked with killing him. At the end of the quest you have to fight your way through a dungeon filled with undead and the sorcerer's test subjects: unique vampires with reduced weaknesses to fire and stuff like that. The boss is the alchemist himself of course, who's just managed to perfect his new vampire strain using the Mace of Molag Bal in some weird necromantic ritual and infected himself. Once you've killed hil Bal offers you his Mace. However before the fights breaks out the mage offers to turn you into this new breed of vampire in exchange for his (un)life. So you have to choose between the Mace and a permanent boost to your vampire powers.

*This is old lore, admittedly, so its canon status is even more debatable than the rest of TES canon, but the nightmares vampires get in Oblivion do point to a connection with the Lady of Dreams.

[Rater202]

worth noting that most cures for vampirism involve striking a bargain with Bal for him to remove the disease rather than purging it through mortal means.

All known vampirism diseases take three days to fully turn you and can be purged from your system by drinking any given cure disease potion or praying at the shrine of any Divine.

Beyond that, only Morrowind seems to involve Molag Bal in curing vampirism.

In Oblivion it's cured with a potion made from six cloves of garlic, five nightshade leaves, two bloodgrass shoots, argonian blood, and the ashe of a powerful vampire. Th witch who brews it asks for you to give her soul gems to pay for it, but it's otherwise just a potion. You can also use the Font of Renewal, which is found in a location associated with Sithis.

Online has a quest that involves finding a cure for a vampire that's just a potion.

Skyrim it's a ritual where you trade a filled Black Soul Gem for the cure. No specific realm of oblivion is mentioned, but Black Soul Gems are th work of the Ideal MAsters not Molag Ball.

In comparison Croprus, once you have it, the only cure is a mercy kill unless you're a hero of prophecy and even then you still have it, it's just managed. Not even severing Dagoth Ur's connection to the HEart, the source of both his divinity and the semi-divine nature of Corprus can cure it.

It also alters the individual far more extremely than the comparatively more curable Vampirism and Lycanthropy. I mean, Vampires and Werewolves have Black Souls, souls that contain a consciousness, souls that are people.

Corprus victims have White Souls. Souls that are just energy.

So if Corprus can be altered into a form with non-existent drawbacks, even if the process kills the vast majority of people who take it, I don't see why vampirism can't be likewise.

[Resileaf]

In comparison Croprus, once you have it, the only cure is a mercy kill unless you're a hero of prophecy and even then you still have it, it's just managed. Not even severing Dagoth Ur's connection to the HEart, the source of both his divinity and the semi-divine nature of Corprus can cure it.

Technically, it looks like time (a long-ass time, granted, but time nonetheless) can also cure the madness caused by Corprus. Yagrum Bagarn may still be deformed, but over the eons spent in Divayth Fyr's care, he eventually regained his mental faculties.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Skyrim it's a ritual where you trade a filled Black Soul Gem for the cure. No specific realm of oblivion is mentioned, but Black Soul Gems are th work of the Ideal MAsters not Molag Ball.

Molag Bal makes heavy use of soul gems and soul stealing in ESO, and in Oblivion we have Hermaeus Mora’s quest to soul trap one of each of the major races.

[Grim Portent]

Black Soul gems seem to have a few possible origins. Mannimarco can make them, Daedric Princes seem to have a connection, though the Black/Star of Azura begs questions, and of course the enigmatic Ideal Masters can make them and have taken credit for them. They can also drop from soul gem veins in Skyrim as I recall, which would indicate that they can be naturally occurring and may not be anyone's creation as such but rather a natural phenomenon that several powerful beings can replicate.

The filled soul gem used in the Skyrim cure for vampirism is probably more of a life for a life type of thing than the soul gem itself having any significance per say.

[Fyraltari]

Skyrim it's a ritual where you trade a filled Black Soul Gem for the cure. No specific realm of oblivion is mentioned, but Black Soul Gems are th work of the Ideal MAsters not Molag Ball.

If I recall correctly, the idea is that the soul is offered in exchange for yours. Also doesn't the Imperial census of Daedra Lords credit Bal with inventing the soul gems?

It also alters the individual far more extremely than the comparatively more curable Vampirism and Lycanthropy. I mean, Vampires and Werewolves have Black Souls, souls that contain a consciousness, souls that are people.

Corprus victims have White Souls. Souls that are just energy.

There is no white/black soul distinction in Morrowind, Vivec's soul fit in a Grand Soul gem.

Edit: Nothing about the Soul Gems make sense really.

[Keltest]

If I recall correctly, the idea is that the soul is offered in exchange for yours. Also doesn't the Imperial census of Daedra Lords credit Bal with inventing the soul gems?



There is no white/black soul distinction in Morrowind, Vivec's soul fit in a Grand Soul gem.

Edit: Nothing about the Soul Gems make sense really.

Vivec is also well beyond a normal mortal at that point.

[Fyraltari]

Vivec is also well beyond a normal mortal at that point.

Yeah, that's the point. Even him doesn't require a black soul gem. 'Coz there are none in the game. 'coz they were created by Mannimarco/Revenant between Morrowind and Oblivion, except they already existed in Online, cause soul gems don't make sense.

[Rater202]

Souls in a black soul gem are sent to the Soul Marine, a Realm of Oblivion ruled by the Ideal Masters.

In the absence of a specific Deadra lord being involved, I would assume that trading the soul within a Black Soul Gem to an unnamed plane of oblivion is giving it to the ideal masters.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that black soul gems work by trading a soul to the ideal masters for power in general.

[Lurkmoar]

Soul Cairne, not Soul Mairne.

Interestingly enough, The Mantella in Daggerfall is listed as a soul gem. Makes sense, considering what was in.

[Grim Portent]

Souls in a black soul gem are sent to the Soul Marine, a Realm of Oblivion ruled by the Ideal Masters.

In the absence of a specific Deadra lord being involved, I would assume that trading the soul within a Black Soul Gem to an unnamed plane of oblivion is giving it to the ideal masters.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that black soul gems work by trading a soul to the ideal masters for power in general.

I think it's all trapped souls, or at least a bit of them, that go to the Soul Cairn. There's cow souls hanging around there, as well as Arvak the horse of course.

[Keltest]

I think it's all trapped souls, or at least a bit of them, that go to the Soul Cairn. There's cow souls hanging around there, as well as Arvak the horse of course.

It may just be souls that were trapped within a Black Soul Gem. Certainly few people are going to use those on regular animals.

[Rater202]

I didn't do much enchanting in Skyrim even on my crafting build—I was able to improve a set of Deadric armor to the point that it was collectively at the maximum it could have protected me from anything and was walking around practically invincible in early game so why bother, especially on a melee build—but on my first conjurer playthrough I made sure to acquire exactly one black soul gem just before killing Commandor Maro with my bound bow... With the automatic soul trap perk.

I then enchanted a dagger using his soul and made sure to kill the Emporer with it, because this was before Dawnguard came out and I assumed that I was actually putting his soul in the dagger and that he'd be conscious in there until I'd depleted his soul juice.

...I can be a sadistic son of a bitch when there are no consequences.

[Grim Portent]

It may just be souls that were trapped within a Black Soul Gem. Certainly few people are going to use those on regular animals.

Dunno, Morven Stroud and his horse and cart all got sent there by some necromancers. Their collective presence indicates that something other than black soul gems can result in something being trapped in the Soul Cairn.

Come to think of it I think the cows had a farmer's soul nearby, and Arvark came with his master, so maybe they all wound up there through some other mechanism that the game doesn't mention. Maybe some necromancer's have magic that moves things to the Soul Cairn as part of a set.

[Keltest]

Dunno, Morven Stroud and his horse and cart all got sent there by some necromancers. Their collective presence indicates that something other than black soul gems can result in something being trapped in the Soul Cairn.

Come to think of it I think the cows had a farmer's soul nearby, and Arvark came with his master, so maybe they all wound up there through some other mechanism that the game doesn't mention. Maybe some necromancer's have magic that moves things to the Soul Cairn as part of a set.

Or maybe they just sprayed some soul trap spells and the cow died too.

[veti]

Dunno, Morven Stroud and his horse and cart all got sent there by some necromancers. Their collective presence indicates that something other than black soul gems can result in something being trapped in the Soul Cairn.

Come to think of it I think the cows had a farmer's soul nearby, and Arvark came with his master, so maybe they all wound up there through some other mechanism that the game doesn't mention. Maybe some necromancer's have magic that moves things to the Soul Cairn as part of a set.

The farmer may have collected cows after arriving in the Cairn, rather than bringing them with him. Arvark and his owner may both have been trapped in black soul gems.

Morven Stroud's inventory is a more interesting puzzle. Even if some necromancers do have a magic to send inanimate objects to the Soul Cairn, why would they do it?

[Grim Portent]

Morven Stroud's inventory is a more interesting puzzle. Even if some necromancers do have a magic to send inanimate objects to the Soul Cairn, why would they do it?

Spite perhaps. Morven claims to have sold faulty goods to a necromancer coven's representative, making him and all his stuff vanish into the Soul Cairn would be quite the feat of vindictive and petty revenge.


I find it hard to imagine people in the setting soul trapping and killing horses and cows, especially with black soul gems. Those things are rare and expensive, enough so that many players are careful to not fill them with junk souls, and the PC is generally inordinately wealthy for someone of their often dubious morality, your average unethical NPC wizard would probably know enough to try and fill their black soul gems with farmers, beggars or other easy victims.

[Rater202]

Guys? We know that there is at least one Oblivion Gate that allows someone to travel to the Soul Cairn.

It's entirely possible that not every ghost we find is the result of a soul trapping, merely most of them.