The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[Misery Esquire]

Or maybe they just sprayed some soul trap spells and the cow died too.

AoE Soul Trap would be a strange, but functional, maneuver for a Morag Tong assassin who has to worry about people Ancestor Ghost'ing their victims back. Though, most Tong assassinations are too... Direct to have many questions about Whodunnit, unlike the Brotherhood.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Guys? We know that there is at least one Oblivion Gate that allows someone to travel to the Soul Cairn.

It's entirely possible that not every ghost we find is the result of a soul trapping, merely most of them.

Seconded; search around enough and you’ll find an adventurer’s corpse with a little note in Soul Cairn.

Edit:
As a side note, I want to complain about how horribly under-utilized Soul Cairn actually is. We've got spirits wandering around from the Alessian Empire. So anything in between then and now is fair game! There could have been so many options for side quests there! And yet we don't even get a decent variety of monsters!

[veti]

As a side note, I want to complain about how horribly under-utilized Soul Cairn actually is. We've got spirits wandering around from the Alessian Empire. So anything in between then and now is fair game! There could have been so many options for side quests there! And yet we don't even get a decent variety of monsters!

Yeah, but it comes down to "how much time would it take to design, build and test all that, vs how many more sales would it translate to, really?" I suspect that ratio would be pretty bad.

Which is why mods are so important. Even so, I can't recall seeing any mods that add stuff to the Soul Cairn. I guess it's just too out-of-the-way.

[Rater202]

Does anyone else wish that Oblivion had altered dialog for the "Blood of a Deadra" quest if you did Shivering Isles before progressing the main quest that far?

I understand that it woulnd't be canon and it might have been extra work, but "Oh, no, I'm tight with Sheogorath/so it's a long story, but technically I'm a Deadric prince" should totally be a valid response. You should totally be able to tell Martin that, head to the Isles, and grab a vile from the font of madness and that should work.

Or even just an extra line of dialog where you claim to be sheogorath and Martindisbeleives it, humors you, but says that he'd prefer a deadric artifact over your literal blood.

[Lord Raziere]

Does anyone else wish that Oblivion had altered dialog for the "Blood of a Deadra" quest if you did Shivering Isles before progressing the main quest that far?

I understand that it woulnd't be canon and it might have been extra work, but "Oh, no, I'm tight with Sheogorath/so it's a long story, but technically I'm a Deadric prince" should totally be a valid response. You should totally be able to tell Martin that, head to the Isles, and grab a vile from the font of madness and that should work.

Or even just an extra line of dialog where you claim to be sheogorath and Martin disbeleives it, humors you, but says that he'd prefer a deadric artifact over your literal blood.

Sure sounds logical. never played oblivion far enough to do that sort of thing though.

Bethesda doing extra work to make more options possible however? Not in this universe. their version of a sandbox, is unfortunately "here is the main quests and the linear stuff you can do. we put them somewhere in this wide open world. Once your on them its mostly basically train track city, but those train tracks have some sand you can mess with between."

[Grim Portent]

They probably didn't do something like that because it would have required getting Sean Bean back in to record dialogue for Martin, and while I don't know how much it costs for him to do voice lines for a game, it would have likely been inordinately expensive to have him come back to record about five lines that aren't a required part of the Shivering Isles quests.

[Rynjin]

Probably that exactly, because they did at least do something special for if you do Sheogorath's Daedric Shrine after beating Shivering Isles.

[Keltest]

Also, the extent to which you actually count as Sheogorath at that point is pretty dubious, especially outside of the Isles. Even the others make it clear that youre only a "close enough" copy, and not a literal Daedric Prince... for now.

[Fyraltari]

Probably that exactly, because they did at least do something special for if you do Sheogorath's Daedric Shrine after beating Shivering Isles.

Not just if you've beaten it. There are various dialogs depending on how much you've progressed. It's even unavailable if Sheogorath's disappeared but you haven't beaten Jyggalag yet.

[Keltest]

Not just if you've beaten it. There are various dialogs depending on how much you've progressed. It's even unavailable if Sheogorath's disappeared but you haven't beaten Jyggalag yet.

Are you even able to leave the Isles if that's happened?

[Grim Portent]

Are you even able to leave the Isles if that's happened?

You can leave during the various missions to track down the last bits and pieces you need to be Sheogorath as I recall, including the ones that happen after Sheogorath has dissapeared. I think you only get locked in once you reach the finale and face Jyggalag.

Wether or not you'd be daedric lord enough to open the portal to Paradise is a bit of a toss up, the specifics of mantling are kinda vague, and Jyggalag does say you might eventually grow into your station. Time can be kind of wobbly in the Elder Scrolls, but I would take it to mean that while you are Sheogorath Prince of Madness, you also aren't yet Sheogorath Prince of Madness as it were and that eventually you'll gain the full powers and properties of a Daedric Lord.

[factotum]

Bethesda doing extra work to make more options possible however? Not in this universe.

It has actually happened they've done this quite recently, believe it or not. For instance, if you do the main quest in Fallout 4 *after* finishing the Far Harbor DLC then some of the dialogue options change to take account of that.

[Grim Portent]

Oh, that reminds me, it's also a matter of availability as well as cost. Adding dialogue for a lot of characters in Bethesda games can be easy because so many share a voice actor, especially in Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Skyrim, getting them back in to voice some new stuff for a dlc isn't too hard and you can get them to record a few extra lines for other characters they voiced while they're at it.

Getting a big name to do it is very hard because they have busy schedules and are usually only used to voice one character. I don't know what Sean Bean was doing when the Shivering Isles was in development, but even if he would have been willing to record the lines to acknowledge you as Sheogorath for fifty bucks and a pizza party actually getting hold of him and him then finding the time to record could have been very hard.

[Rater202]

"You know, I'm technically Sheogorath, we could try my blood."
*Martin just stares at you*
"I'll just go get an artifact fr you then."

Would have been nice.

Or if you just think to go to the Isles you can ask Haskil about it and he says water from the Font of Madness might work and that lets you bypass having to do a shrine quest.

Or he says that it won't work, but if it's such an emergency you should head back to Cyrodiil to do damage control and head to Sheogorath(Your) shrine in a little bit and he'll try and see where the Wabbajack got off too and hopefully be able to get it too you when you get to the Shrine, which marks sheogorath's shrine on your map an lets you bypass the summoning, but you still have to do the quest(YEs, oh, it seems there are rules about this sort of thing')

No dialog from Martin needed, but add dialog from Haskil whose actor was in the studio at the time already recording lines. It really could not have been that much more expensive to add a few

[Keltest]

Youre the god of madness. It may be genuinely impossible for you to pursue such a rational course of action. Now, making an offering to yourself at your own shrine... thats within your portfolio for sure.

[Fyraltari]

"You know, I'm technically Sheogorath, we could try my blood."
*Martin just stares at you*
"I'll just go get an artifact fr you then."

HoK: You know, I'm technically Sheogorath, we could try my blood.
Martin: Stays silent.
HoK: *thinking* Oh ****! Martin joined the Dark Brotherhood too!

Or if you just think to go to the Isles you can ask Haskil about it and he says water from the Font of Madness might work and that lets you bypass having to do a shrine quest.

Or he says that it won't work, but if it's such an emergency you should head back to Cyrodiil to do damage control and head to Sheogorath(Your) shrine in a little bit and he'll try and see where the Wabbajack got off too and hopefully be able to get it too you when you get to the Shrine, which marks sheogorath's shrine on your map an lets you bypass the summoning, but you still have to do the quest(YEs, oh, it seems there are rules about this sort of thing')

No dialog from Martin needed, but add dialog from Haskil whose actor was in the studio at the time already recording lines. It really could not have been that much more expensive to add a few

That's... A pretty good idea actually. Although vials from the Font of Madness would have necessitated a new line from Martin.

Youre the god of madness. It may be genuinely impossible for you to pursue such a rational course of action. Now, making an offering to yourself at your own shrine... thats within your portfolio for sure.

Hey now, madness is very rational. It's just that its starting point isn't reality. Kind of like building a castle in a swamp. Yes this is a Monty Python AND "definition of madness" joke.
And if the Sixteen Accords and Shivering Isles's main quest are any indication Sheo might just be the smartest of the Daedric Princes.

[Rater202]

Youre the god of madness. It may be genuinely impossible for you to pursue such a rational course of action. Now, making an offering to yourself at your own shrine... thats within your portfolio for sure.

I mean, literally everything Sheogorath does or has you do in the Shivering Isles questline is rational, even if it seems insane on the surface.

He needs someone reliable to take his place during the Greymarch, so he opens a gate to Cyrodiil hoping to attract adventures.

At the same time, the only way in is to kill the gatekeeper and harvest the keys sewn into its body, which requires you to be strong, observant, or cunning. Or all of the above.

Once you've proven yourself by making it past the gatekeeper, Sheogorath immediately sends you to reactivate Xedillian specifically because it'll lure potential threats and unworthy petitioners to itself and either kill them or drive them mad and make them suitable residents of the Isles. Having you test it once it's up and running also in theory gives a peg on your character: Given the choice, would you prefer to kill people or leave them alive but changed?

Next, we have you doing services for the Duke of Mania and Duchess of Dementia in order to understand Madness... and that's exactly what you do. Your quest for Thadon has you engage in a drug that makes you feel great but the withdrawal symptoms can ****ing kill you, which gives you a good feel for the highs and lows and risk-taking behavior of the truly manic, while your quest for Syl not only has you engaged in the kind of paranoia and espionage that the Duchess lives in all the time but has you go about and actually talk to/interrogate the various broken people that live in her district of Crucible.

so you get an understanding of Madness... And honestly, how can you be the god of something and not understand it?

Next, we have the Great Torch, which Sheogorath flat out tells you will make the people of the Isles feel safer once it's relit and therefore make people less likely to run off and join the forces of Order. Furthermore, the flame is needed to gain the blessing of Arden Sul, and Arden

And that's the kicker.

Arden Sul was the first Duke, with rivally and mutually exclusive tales of which Duke he was, what he lived like, and how he died, and imitating one of his supposed deaths and receiving his blessing is a nessesary factor of becoming a Duke or Duchess.

In short, the process of becoming the Duke or Duchess of either half of the island is to Mantel Arden Sul.

Arden Sul is worshiped by all factions in the isle. Maniacs, Demented, Heretics, Zealots. Heretics believe that Arden Sul is the "real" ruler of the Isle, while Zealots believe him to have been a living God representing the Mortal Aspect of Sheogorath. Both the Manic and the Demented believe that Arden Sul was more than mortal and continues to have influence over the isles.

Reading between the lines: Aden Sul is a version of Sheogorath, a form or Aspect he took on in a previous cycle, and the Mad God's contradictory nature is almost certainly an explanation for his contradictory stories, assuming that Sheogorath didn't take that form more than once in the first place, and by Mantling Arden Sul ou are not only earning the worship of all on the isles but you are beginning the process of manteling Sheogorath.

Fittingly, Sheogorath tells you that you'll be manteling him in order to face Jygalaag on his behalf right before he sends you to light the Flame.

Retaking the fringe and rebuilding the gatekeeper have no hidden meaning. You're just driving off the forces of order and adding extra security to limit the ability of outsiders to get in or take control fo the Fringe again, though arguably since Sheogorath commissioned and worked to make the Previous Gatekeepers, you commissioning and helping in the construction of the new one is another step toward you manteling Sheogorath.

Then you deal with an emergency and then Sheogorath is gone, Haskil guides you through the process of gathering up the last of what you need to assume Sheogorath's position while you do battle with forces of Order who try to stop you.

The Mad God is surprisingly rational all through that questline.

So the Prince of Madness is not in and of himself Mad, just... Differant.

[Keltest]

I mean, literally everything Sheogorath does or has you do in the Shivering Isles questline is rational, even if it seems insane on the surface.

Yeah, and its a plot point, one that he explicitly confirms, that his growing rationality is very much because he is becoming Jyggalag, and losing Sheogorath.

[Rater202]

Yeah, and its a plot point, one that he explicitly confirms, that his growing rationality is very much because he is becoming Jyggalag, and losing Sheogorath.

Even so, if a waning Sheogorath can be rational, then a becoming Sheogorath can be as well.

Assuming of course that by becoming Sheogorath, we don't assume his nature as "a mass of order in a shell of Madness."

Sheogorath's madness is a curse, a curse that we broke when we assumed the Role of Sheogorath and slew Jygallag's physical form.

I see no reason why becoming the Mad god would be as debilitating for The Hero of Kvatch as it as for the Prince of Order, since it was a curse for the Prne but a reward for us.

There's also the Skyrim appearance to consider: In that quest, we're curing the insanity of the most famous madman in Tamrielic history so that his ghost can be laid to rest. That would be against the nature of a Mad God.

[LibraryOgre]

Does anyone else wish that Oblivion had altered dialog for the "Blood of a Deadra" quest if you did Shivering Isles before progressing the main quest that far?

Related: Can you do Sheogorath's quest on Mundus after you do Shivering Isles? So you're sending yourself to cause mischief?

[Keltest]

Related: Can you do Sheogorath's quest on Mundus after you do Shivering Isles? So you're sending yourself to cause mischief?

Yes. Haskil comments on exactly that. Sheo also has like 5 different sets of dialogue chewing you out depending on how far you are into the Shivering Isles questline.

[Resileaf]

Related: Can you do Sheogorath's quest on Mundus after you do Shivering Isles? So you're sending yourself to cause mischief?

Yes, when you pray at the shrine, Haskill answers and ironises that it truly takes a mad god to make an offering to himself. Then he tells you how to complete the quest and get the Wabbajack.

Edit: Ninja'd!

[Lurkmoar]

There's also the Skyrim appearance to consider: In that quest, we're curing the insanity of the most famous madman in Tamrielic history so that his ghost can be laid to rest. That would be against the nature of a Mad God.

You don't cure Pelagius. You just get rid of his paranoia, doubts and terrors. The Daedric Prince of Madness comments that he's treated, not cured. Pelagius's spirit is probably still nuttier then a Payday bar.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

There's also the Skyrim appearance to consider: In that quest, we're curing the insanity of the most famous madman in Tamrielic history so that his ghost can be laid to rest. That would be against the nature of a Mad God.

I think you mean to say, it would be crazy for the Prince of Madness to cure someone’s insanity.

[Lord Raziere]

You don't cure Pelagius. You just get rid of his paranoia, doubts and terrors. The Daedric Prince of Madness comments that he's treated, not cured. Pelagius's spirit is probably still nuttier then a Payday bar.

I think you mean to say, it would be crazy for the Prince of Madness to cure someone’s insanity.

Both of these, because while it wasn't cured, its still pretty crazy of the mad god to treat it or to try to cure it.

[Rater202]

Just like it would be crazy for the Mad God to be perfectly rational?

[Lord Raziere]

Just like it would be crazy for the Mad God to be perfectly rational?

He can't be sane all the time, don't be ridiculous by implying he is always sane.

[Fyraltari]

snip

I wonder if the Sixteenth Accord of Madness could be Arden Sul's life-story.

Alternatively, it might describe the breaking of the Greymarch.

I also wonder how closely related Arden Sul was to Nerevar's shield-mate, Alandro Sul.

[Grim Portent]

Jyggalag was arguably insane in a sense even before he was cursed. Obsessed, genocidal, driven by a singular desire to rule all of Oblivion, fueled by hate for disorder. I would say Sheogorath wasn't the Mad God by comparison, but more of a mirror of Jyggalag's own madness. Whimsical, tolerant while still being murderous, driven whatever thoughts enter his head up until they cease to be fun, fueled by hate for stasis.


Of course most of the daedric princes aren't exactly rational anyway. They tend towards being control freaks, have impulses and drives they struggle to resist, are extremely proud and vindictive and a host of other personality flaws that humans would generally label them as unstable psychos for having.

[Fyraltari]

Jyggalag was arguably insane in a sense even before he was cursed. Obsessed, genocidal, driven by a singular desire to rule all of Oblivion, fueled by hate for disorder. I would say Sheogorath wasn't the Mad God by comparison, but more of a mirror of Jyggalag's own madness. Whimsical, tolerant while still being murderous, driven whatever thoughts enter his head up until they cease to be fun, fueled by hate for stasis.


Of course most of the daedric princes aren't exactly rational anyway. They tend towards being control freaks, have impulses and drives they struggle to resist, are extremely proud and vindictive and a host of other personality flaws that humans would generally label them as unstable psychos for having.

I wouldn't say Jyggalag is any more insane than any other Et'Ada.
They're all obsessed with their own spheres. Because they are that spheres. They all want to take over every realm in the Aurbis and remake them ib their image. The only difference was that Jyggalag actually had a shot at making it happened thanks to his library.