The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[Rater202]

That raises the question, is being "madness" the same as being "mad?"

[Lord Raziere]

Yes, madness has four more letters, it is a longer word.

[Fyraltari]

That raises the question, is being "madness" the same as being "mad?"

No you can be mad without being the incarnation of madness (see: Glarthir), but you can't be an incarnation of madness without being mad.

Related: I think New Sheogorath is mad but I also think he's more able to understand that madness doesn't necessarily suits mortals, hence helping Pelagius. The late emperor isn't cured, but he's doing better, now.

[veti]

Looking back, I'm disappointed in the character of Haskell in SI. Why is he so boringly sane?

(And don't say Sheo "needs" someone rational in that role, that's a cop out. Seems to me that a self respecting Prince of Madness should be able to order his realm such that he doesn't need such a dissonant element in such a central role.)

[Lord Raziere]

Looking back, I'm disappointed in the character of Haskell in SI. Why is he so boringly sane?

(And don't say Sheo "needs" someone rational in that role, that's a cop out. Seems to me that a self respecting Prince of Madness should be able to order his realm such that he doesn't need such a dissonant element in such a central role.)

I advise to not take Funny Cheese Daedra too seriously. Sheogorath seems to be the only Daedra with a sense of humor aside from Sanguine. it could be that one of his lesser known spheres is comedy and that Haskill fulfills a snarky straight man role. Considering that he is very similar to characters like Joker or Cegorach (notice the similarities of the names), it would make sense if hew was also the daedric prince of humor and comedy to.

[LibraryOgre]

Hypothesis: Sheogorath treated Pelagius's madness for the pleasure watching it all come back again. And to harass you.

[Rater202]

Looking back, I'm disappointed in the character of Haskell in SI. Why is he so boringly sane?

(And don't say Sheo "needs" someone rational in that role, that's a cop out. Seems to me that a self respecting Prince of Madness should be able to order his realm such that he doesn't need such a dissonant element in such a central role.)

In the land of MAdness where everyone is insane, someone who is perfectly sane is the maddest of all and therefore a perfect candidate to be the Mad God's right hand man.

Though apparently there's an interview where it's stated that Haskil is a mortal that Sheogorath mantled(rather than he other way around) which means that Haskil, as he appears in-game, might just be an aspect of Sheogorath, the part of him that took on the traits of a perfectly sane mortal he tried to be. I don't know, I haven't read/listened to the interview.

I advise to not take Funny Cheese Daedra too seriously. Sheogorath seems to be the only Daedra with a sense of humor aside from Sanguine. it could be that one of his lesser known spheres is comedy and that Haskill fulfills a snarky straight man role. Considering that he is very similar to characters like Joker or Cegorach (notice the similarities the names), it would make sense if hew was also the daedric prince of humor and comedy to.

He is supposedly the source of creativity and the mythological inventor of music. A source of inspiration, and a lot of what he does

[Lord Raziere]

He is supposedly the source of creativity and the mythological inventor of music. A source of inspiration, and a lot of what he does

Wait.

He invented music?

In other words the thing that Dwemer used and called tonal architecture?



Oh no.....

[Taevyr]

Reading the Arden-sul posts, it seems to me that Arden-Sul might have been another mortal that mantled (or tried to mantle) Sheogorath at some point, which means you're mantling someone so you can better mantle the person said person was mantling. It could be an aspect of Sheo, but that seems less likely to me.

And Haskill is obviously crazy: what sane mortal would remain rational while living in the Shivering Isles as the Madgod's right hand Or he's so damn rational that it drove other people insane, which amused Sheo enough to keep him.

[Grim Portent]

The wiki page is a bit misleading, the actual intent is to say that Haskill mantled Sheogorath. For some reason they phrased it weird in the wiki, but the linked article has the following to say on it.

I am a Vestige, all that remains of a mortal from your world who 'mantled' Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of 'mantling,' but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak. I have asked the Mad God to explain it to me, but he just laughs and says maybe he'll tell me about it 'next year,' whatever that means.

So he's more of an echo of someone who presumably tried to break the Jyggalag/Sheogorath cycle in the past and failed.

Presumably the main part of him literally became Sheogorath, which does have some interesting implications for other characters who we know have mantled various entities. Though really we're as hazy on mantling as Haskill is, there's a lot left unknown about it.

Wait.

He invented music?

In other words the thing that Dwemer used and called tonal architecture?



Oh no.....

To be fair, it is claimed in one in game book which is blatantly biased. I forget the details, been a few years since I last read that one, but I think it was supposed to be written by an explicit or implicit cultist of Sheogorath. Sheogorath is definitely associated with artistic expression and inspiration*, but music itself seems to be more fundamentally part of reality than anything a daedric lord could have made.

*Demonstrated in the Mania region of the Shivering Isles, primarily by the Duke of Mania.

[Taevyr]

The wiki page is a bit misleading, the actual intent is to say that Haskill mantled Sheogorath. For some reason they phrased it weird in the wiki, but the linked article has the following to say on it.



So he's more of an echo of someone who presumably tried to break the Jyggalag/Sheogorath cycle in the past and failed.

Presumably the main part of him literally became Sheogorath, which does have some interesting implications for other characters who we know have mantled various entities. Though really we're as hazy on mantling as Haskill is, there's a lot left unknown about it.

It's a concept that appears in other media: The ones I can think of are American Gods, which has some aspects of it, and Scion 2e which has it as part of it's setting lore and a potential path for the eponymous scions to follow. In both cases it's essentially taking the key myths and legends that "created" the mantle, experiencing them while playing your "part", though usually a modernized or slightly changed version, and do so until the universe no longer sees the difference. You could technically even stumble into it, which is kind of horrifying.

So essentially, the universe runs on Narrativium, and you're taking every key myth, signature item and role of a given divine figure as your own until the Narrativium can't keep it apart anymore and merges you for convenience's sake. Your formerly purely "personal" legendary deeds and other key stuff are then added to the mantle, and the process can technically start over.

EDIT: I specifically mean american gods - the book; haven't watched the series, though it's on the ever-expanding list of media whose consumption I'd probably enjoy.

[Rater202]

Wait.

He invented music?

In other words the thing that Dwemer used and called tonal architecture?



Oh no.....

It's detailed in Myths of Sheogorath.

TL/Dr, The Mad God tore a still-living mortal woman limb from limb and used her flesh and bones to craft instruments with which other mortals could make music.

[Lord Raziere]

To be fair, it is claimed in one in game book which is blatantly biased. I forget the details, been a few years since I last read that one, but I think it was supposed to be written by an explicit or implicit cultist of Sheogorath. Sheogorath is definitely associated with artistic expression and inspiration*, but music itself seems to be more fundamentally part of reality than anything a daedric lord could have made.

*Demonstrated in the Mania region of the Shivering Isles, primarily by the Duke of Mania.

Okay, not entirely factual, was worried that the Dwemer's disappearance was all because the Mad God decided to slip in a little "Haha funny vanish self from reality note" in there and Kagrenac fell for the prank and with the Hearts power amplified the effect to his entire race....

[Grim Portent]

It's a concept that appears in other media: The ones I can think of are American Gods, which has some aspects of it, and Scion 2e which has it as part of it's setting lore and a potential path for the eponymous scions to follow. In both cases it's essentially taking the key myths and legends that "created" the mantle, experiencing them while playing your "part", though usually a modernized or slightly changed version, and do so until the universe no longer sees the difference. You could technically even stumble into it, which is kind of horrifying.

So essentially, the universe runs on Narrativium, and you're taking every key myth, signature item and role of a given divine figure as your own until the Narrativium can't keep it apart anymore and merges you for convenience's sake. Your formerly purely "personal" legendary deeds and other key stuff are then added to the mantle, and the process can technically start over.

EDIT: I specifically mean american gods - the book; haven't watched the series, though it's on the ever-expanding list of media whose consumption I'd probably enjoy.

That's the mechanisms behind mantling, but what actually happens to the mantler and the mantled is really vague.

The Hero of Kvatch mantles both Pelinal Whitestrake and Sheogorath, it's heavily implied that the Sheogorath one stuck, but what happens to the Divine Crusader? Does the Nerevarine gain the memories and so forth of Nerevar, or just the abilities required to fulfill the prophecy? What's the nature of Talos relative to Lorkhan?

Broadly speaking the unknowns to me are to what extent you genuinely become the thing you mantle. Sheogorath appears to be the same entity that has always existed except now with the memories of the Hero of Kvatch added to the persona, he still seems to considers himself to be the same Sheogorath that existed prior to the events of Oblivion, but is that the case for all people who mantle something? Do they all dissolve into the older entity, or are some forever distinct but similar? Do some become aspects without truly merging?

[Lord Raziere]

That's the mechanisms behind mantling, but what actually happens to the mantler and the mantled is really vague.

The Hero of Kvatch mantles both Pelinal Whitestrake and Sheogorath, it's heavily implied that the Sheogorath one stuck, but what happens to the Divine Crusader? Does the Nerevarine gain the memories and so forth of Nerevar, or just the abilities required to fulfill the prophecy? What's the nature of Talos relative to Lorkhan?

Broadly speaking the unknowns to me are to what extent you genuinely become the thing you mantle. Sheogorath appears to be the same entity that has always existed except now with the memories of the Hero of Kvatch added to the persona, he still seems to considers himself to be the same Sheogorath that existed prior to the events of Oblivion, but is that the case for all people who mantle something? Do they all dissolve into the older entity, or are some forever distinct but similar? Do some become aspects without truly merging?

Its one of those myth-logic things that I don't think has or should have a consistent hard answer: if it had one and could be easily replicated, it'd be nothing but a scientific process, not a mythological journey of metaphor and symbolic recreation that leads to becoming apart of something divine. basically any answer along those lines would be a midichlorians answer, which we don't want.

[Rater202]

For what it's worth, Sheogorath's VA has stated that, in his opinion, sheogorath as he appears in Skyrim is the Hero of Kvatch having used the Wabbajack to imitate the original Sheogorath's appearance and is doing an imitation of the previous Mad God's mannerisms.

[Lurkmoar]

It's detailed in Myths of Sheogorath.

TL/Dr, The Mad God tore a still-living mortal woman limb from limb and used her flesh and bones to craft instruments with which other mortals could make music.

The inspiration of which was that the woman noted that mortals couldn't make the sounds of a lovely song bird. And Sheogorath agreed.

As for the Dwemer, the theory I've seen floated around the most is that messing with the Heart of Lorkhan made them all become one with Numidium. Or they're all trapped in some plane in Oblivion. Or they actually ascended to a higher plane of existence.

[Taevyr]

That's the mechanisms behind mantling, but what actually happens to the mantler and the mantled is really vague.

The Hero of Kvatch mantles both Pelinal Whitestrake and Sheogorath, it's heavily implied that the Sheogorath one stuck, but what happens to the Divine Crusader? Does the Nerevarine gain the memories and so forth of Nerevar, or just the abilities required to fulfill the prophecy? What's the nature of Talos relative to Lorkhan?

Broadly speaking the unknowns to me are to what extent you genuinely become the thing you mantle. Sheogorath appears to be the same entity that has always existed except now with the memories of the Hero of Kvatch added to the persona, he still seems to considers himself to be the same Sheogorath that existed prior to the events of Oblivion, but is that the case for all people who mantle something? Do they all dissolve into the older entity, or are some forever distinct but similar? Do some become aspects without truly merging?

I imagine that generally the core persona, which you could call "the mantle", remains mostly the same, gradually subsuming the previous personality(s) but gaining some of his key deeds, quirks and signature items as part of the "mantle". So you could have both a "Kvatch-Sheogorath" and a "Kvatch-Whitestrake" existing simultaneously, with "Kvatch-Sheogorath" actually walking around while the "Whitestrake"-mantle "expands" with the deeds of the Hero as a Knight of the Nine without being taken up permanently.

You could compare it to Greco-Roman deities and the way their epithets and eventual unification worked: they remained the same gods, but had new aspects added to them, subsumed/merged with other gods, minor deities and heroes, or the "core" changed focus as the society worshipping them evolved; In none of those cases does the aspect they gain disappear, they simply become a specific aspect of a greater whole. Mars, for example, went from a god of farmers to a god of soldiers who also happened to be a god of farmers, to gaining a guise as Mars the Avenger after Augustus created and heavily invested in said cult, incorporating it into the early Imperial framework: through all that, Mars was still worshipped in his guises as a god of soldiers, a god of agriculture and god of some other things, but his role had expanded and his main focus shifted a few times.

Incidentally, that last shift might have been part of a deliberate bid by Augustus to associate himself with said incarnation of Mars after "avenging" Caesar, as Augustus is believed to have put deliberate effort into his eventual posthumous apotheosis. So essentially, creating a new aspect of an existing god for the sole purpose of mantling it.

And yes, it's definitely ridiculous to use real-life events as examples of mantling, but such ridiculousness is practically the heart and soul of TES-lore

[LibraryOgre]

For what it's worth, Sheogorath's VA has stated that, in his opinion, sheogorath as he appears in Skyrim is the Hero of Kvatch having used the Wabbajack to imitate the original Sheogorath's appearance and is doing an imitation of the previous Mad God's mannerisms.

My own headcanon (playing through from Arena with the same character) is that the Hero of Kvatch became Sheogorath for a while, then was replaced, and wound up on a road into Cyrodil at the wrong time.

But I also think Haskill is the defeated Jygglg or however you put it. So the HoK's Haskill is actually Sheogorath-that-was.

[Fyraltari]

For the whole "Haskill is the vestige of a mortal who mantled Sheogorath" this seems to be part of one of Michael Kirkbride's ideas. That is that the Greymarch always ends with a mortal defeating Jyggalag and mantling Sheogorath. Arden Sul was the first to do it and Haskill the one just before you.
I don't like it because it makes your actions have no consequences and doesn't mesh with Jygallag saying he's not sure what will happen to you now. And since it's in "Obscure Texts" it's easy to dismiss as non-canonical, if one wishes to.

Wait.

He invented music?

Just musical instruments.

That's the mechanisms behind mantling, but what actually happens to the mantler and the mantled is really vague.

The Hero of Kvatch mantles both Pelinal Whitestrake and Sheogorath, it's heavily implied that the Sheogorath one stuck, but what happens to the Divine Crusader? Does the Nerevarine gain the memories and so forth of Nerevar, or just the abilities required to fulfill the prophecy? What's the nature of Talos relative to Lorkhan?

Broadly speaking the unknowns to me are to what extent you genuinely become the thing you mantle. Sheogorath appears to be the same entity that has always existed except now with the memories of the Hero of Kvatch added to the persona, he still seems to considers himself to be the same Sheogorath that existed prior to the events of Oblivion, but is that the case for all people who mantle something? Do they all dissolve into the older entity, or are some forever distinct but similar? Do some become aspects without truly merging?

Sheogorath is a god while Nerevar and Pelinal were mortals. Yes, Pelinal was a Shezzarine but still, Shezzar's shadow isn't Shezzar. So I don't think that's comparable.

I think New Sheo and Talos "inherited" their predecessor's cosmological roles but are still free to interpret that roles the way they want. To use a poor metaphor, the text is the same, but the acting is not.

As for the Dwemer, the theory I've seen floated around the most is that messing with the Heart of Lorkhan made them all become one with Numidium. Or they're all trapped in some plane in Oblivion. Or they actually ascended to a higher plane of existence.

Don't forget Zero-Summing.

[Rater202]

For the whole "Haskill is the vestige of a mortal who mantled Sheogorath" this seems to be part of one of Michael Kirkbride's ideas. That is that the Greymarch always ends with a mortal defeating Jyggalag and mantling Sheogorath. Arden Sul was the first to do it and Haskill the one just before you.
I don't like it because it makes your actions have no consequences and doesn't mesh with Jygallag saying he's not sure what will happen to you now. And since it's in "Obscure Texts" it's easy to dismiss as non-canonical, if one wishes to.

To be fair, Haskill being a vestige of a previous mantelling... Maybe it happens every era but this is the first time it worked? Ardin Sul(who may or may not be a composite of two or more mortals) died of their excesses or paranoia before being able to assume the role while Haskill... something went wrong so instead of becoming Seogorath he just ended up subsumed by him. Killed by Jyggalag and his soul subsumed unto sheogorath when Jyggalag vanished and reformed into Sheogorath...

Or Maybe Haskil was too sane? Didn't have a proper enough understanding of Madness? And the Haskill we see is just... The pats of him that weren't compatible with Sheogorath

Just musical instruments.

To read th e story in question, the ability of mortals to make music is directly tied to the invention of instruments.

I think New Sheo and Talos "inherited" their predecessor's cosmological roles but are still free to interpret that roles the way they want. To use a poor metaphor, the text is the same, but the acting is not.

I have to wonder... The point of Manteling is "walk like them until they walk like you."

Like, in Morrowind if you ask the right questions they just flat out say that you don't have to literally be Nerevar reincarnated or not, if you can fulfill enough of the tropes of the prophecy you will retroactively become his reincarnation.

But what if you're Mantelling someone that isn't there anymore? sheogorath is gone, become Jyggalag by the time you start manteling him, and he's gone for good by the time you complete the mantling and ascended: You slew Jyggalag and when he reforms he'll be Jyggalag permanently, his curse. He's not there to "walk like you," you're essentially just picking up a God's empty coat and moving into his Empty House, sliding into the Sheogorath Shaped hole in Oblivion in order to keep the Shivering isles intact without the prince that they are an extension of.

I woulnd't be surprised if the Hero of Kvatch is still perfectly sane(or, at least no more insane than they were after completely the Addiction of Lady of Paranoia quests and gaining an understanding of Madness.)

Hell, the entire point of the quests he has you do might be an extended attempt to give you an understanding of madness without actually driving you insane so that you can become the Mad God without actually being Mad yourself, and therefore able to direct your powers over Madness in the way most optimal for defeating Jyggallag: Sort of weaponized paradox type of thing.

Further complicating the matter, Jygalalg's last speech before his consciousness fades away to be reborn in the waters of Oblivion has him essentially admit that he doesn't know if you're a mortal, a Prince, or something else, and Haskil's words on the matter are that you'll eventually grow to be the God you need to be, rather than simply grow into Sheogorath 2.0.

And looking at Lore questions, Sheogorath is sometimes treated as being part of Lorkhan or some kind of counterpart of Sithis, rather than a "Mere" Deadric Prince, which would scan with Jyggalag being the most powerful Prince and complicate the issue of what exactly happened with the Hero of Kvatch evenfurther.

[veti]

I don't like it because it makes your actions have no consequences

Which is a common theme of ES games. The Nerevarine defeated Dagoth Ur and saved Morrowind from the Blight, only for the whole province to be hit by a moon instead. The HoK saved the empire from a daedric invasion, only for the nascent Thalmor to claim the credit and leverage it into, basically, destroying the empire. (And also saved the Mages Guild from a necromancer threat, but 200 years later the guild is gone and necromancers are everywhere. And so on.)

I have an uncomfortable feeling that the Dragonborn hasn't saved the world, either. There are lots of hints to that effect in Skyrim. (For instance, when Felldir sends Alduin forward in time, he banishes him "from all our endings until the last".)

[Rynjin]

Which is a common theme of ES games. The Nerevarine defeated Dagoth Ur and saved Morrowind from the Blight, only for the whole province to be hit by a moon instead. The HoK saved the empire from a daedric invasion, only for the nascent Thalmor to claim the credit and leverage it into, basically, destroying the empire. (And also saved the Mages Guild from a necromancer threat, but 200 years later the guild is gone and necromancers are everywhere. And so on.)

I have an uncomfortable feeling that the Dragonborn hasn't saved the world, either. There are lots of hints to that effect in Skyrim. (For instance, when Felldir sends Alduin forward in time, he banishes him "from all our endings until the last".)

Eh. It's not really so much that nothing you do matters, it's that crises are not things that just happen once and then never again throughout history.

The Nerevarine securing about 200 years of peace for Morrowind is not nothing, and there will likely be a similar period of peace after SKyrim as well.

The Hero saving Tamriel from the Oblivion invasion isn't invalidated just because another threat happened to swoop in and cause trouble later. They...wouldn't have been able to do so if everybody was dead because Mehrunes Dagon came through and murdered them all.

Saying "nothing matters" because the game has sequels, basically, is just weird logic. It's kinda like saying World War II's conclusion didn't matter because it didn't bring about world peace forever.

[Rater202]

Though... I can't help but notice that the last three main-timeline Es games involve the protagonist being divine and immortal to some degree.

The Nerevarine catches Corpus as part of the main storyline, a disease that is created with, and therefore infused with the divinity, of the Heart of Lorkhan and retains this even after your sever Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal's connection tot e HEart. It makes those infected with it ageless and semi-divine but deforms them and drives them mad, either turning them into zombie-like monstrosities or something more... Eldritch.

the Nerevarine is cured of only the negative effects, and is, therefore, both ageless and partly divine.

The Hero of Kvatch, assuming that they did all the DLC, gains a blessing of the Divines by mantling Plnial Whitestrike, and then becomes some kind of deity by Mantelling Sheogorath, becoming immortal and divine.

(and since Whitestrike was known to be insane, their mantling him might be a factor of how they were able to mantel Sheogorath.)

the Last Dragonborn is divine by default, having a dragon soul and dragon's blood and therefore literally being part Divine, and has the option to become a Vampire Lord whether they side with the vampires or not.

I get the feeling that something at the end of a main game title is going to involve multiple long lived beings with a degree of divine power to join forces.

[Lord Raziere]

I get the feeling that something at the end of a main game title is going to involve multiple long lived beings with a degree of divine power to join forces.

your reading too much into it

Its just the power fantasy cycle: you tell the journey of one person ascending in power to divinity or other great status and defeating a great evil (or in Elder Scrolls case their enemies no matter their morality) and at some point they're so powerful....there is nothing really more to tell. They win, they're gods/kings/whatever, nothing they do has tension or challenge, which is especially important for a videogame because the gameplay is all about those things. So when they make a new game....they simply set it somewhere else and make a new blank slate to ascend to divinity, because it wouldn't make sense to depower the previous character just so they can earn it all back again, and at some point the only way you can provide them with a challenge without depowering them is to make them go up against literal gods (which while epic, probably is a lot of work render how such high-powered battles would work) or start going the DBZ/Boruto route and send powerful people from space to fight you, which to be honest, is little different from the god thing.

they're just doing the thing that will make sure they will make more games that everyone will be happy with, because it fits within a nice reasonable range of story scale, which is on a national level, very manageable. enough to have complexity, but not too much as to get ridiculous.

[Lurkmoar]

Dwemer, yeah Zero-Summing. Also, forgot to mention that Kirkbride posits that they were launched forward in time to the 9th Era, where their technological and scientific progress has been far surpassed by other races. However, unless there's confirmation in the game, I don't put a whole lot of stock in it. Seeing as Skyrim just got to the 4th Era... (I know there's all kinds of weird time shenanigans, but still)

iirc, the Eternal Champion's fate is ambiguous beyond being offered a place by the Emperor's side.

The Agent disappeared when Numidium was activated.

The Nerevarine sailed all for Akavir, right?

More likely then not an Elder Scrolls 6 game will make the Last Dragonborn's fate equally murky.

[Fyraltari]

Which is a common theme of ES games. The Nerevarine defeated Dagoth Ur and saved Morrowind from the Blight, only for the whole province to be hit by a moon instead. The HoK saved the empire from a daedric invasion, only for the nascent Thalmor to claim the credit and leverage it into, basically, destroying the empire. (And also saved the Mages Guild from a necromancer threat, but 200 years later the guild is gone and necromancers are everywhere. And so on.)

I have an uncomfortable feeling that the Dragonborn hasn't saved the world, either. There are lots of hints to that effect in Skyrim. (For instance, when Felldir sends Alduin forward in time, he banishes him "from all our endings until the last".)

Nah, Dagoth Ur planned to activate Akhulakhan and use it, as well as the blight to conquer all of Nirn and remake it in his image. Likewise Dagon wanted to merge Tamriel with the Deadlands and kill everybody. Tamriel was damaged by those crisis but the heroes' actions prevented much greater disasters.

And yes, the Dragonborn did not stop Alduin from eating the world, because that's not what Alduin was trying to do. He was trying to conquer the world and rule it like the Dragon-priests used to rule Skyrim.

I get the feeling that something at the end of a main game title is going to involve multiple long lived beings with a degree of divine power to join forces.

They will never show the previous games' pritagonists because they don't want to canonize anything about them (beyond "they completed the main quest).

[Rater202]

They will never show the previous games' pritagonists because they don't want to canonize anything about them (beyond "they completed the main quest).

Sheogorath's quest canonized that the Hero of Kvatch was Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood.

One of Skyrim's lockpicking books is also dated to the changing of the eras and is written by someone who claims to have heisted an Elder Scroll.

In Dragonborn, Neloth Telvani refers to the Nerevarine with male pronouns.

So at least some stuff is canonized.

[Keltest]

Sheogorath's quest canonized that the Hero of Kvatch was Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood.

One of Skyrim's lockpicking books is also dated to the changing of the eras and is written by someone who claims to have heisted an Elder Scroll.

In Dragonborn, Neloth Telvani refers to the Nerevarine with male pronouns.

So at least some stuff is canonized.

The Elder Scroll heist guy is almost certainly lying, taking credit for somebody else's work to try and gain notoriety. He is a thief after all.

[Rater202]

You know, as you progress the Thieves guild quest in Skyrim and bring in more recruits, there's that one guy whose Morong Tong and joined th eThives Guild after coming to Skyrim because the Dark Brotherhood would have killed him if he tried to join and they fond ou he was Tong...

I really wish there was an option to tell him that he made a bad choice. Between Dlvin and possibly the player there are two DB members in the Thieves Guild, albeit one retired.

Like, I don't want to kill him or anything, just tell him "you know we have ties to the Brotherhood, right?"

I guess this is an extension of my earlier gripe about how the connection between the two groups was played up but you the player barely get anything to do with it.