The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[Keltest]

You know, as you progress the Thieves guild quest in Skyrim and bring in more recruits, there's that one guy whose Morong Tong and joined th eThives Guild after coming to Skyrim because the Dark Brotherhood would have killed him if he tried to join and they fond ou he was Tong...

I really wish there was an option to tell him that he made a bad choice. Between Dlvin and possibly the player there are two DB members in the Thieves Guild, albeit one retired.

Like, I don't want to kill him or anything, just tell him "you know we have ties to the Brotherhood, right?"

I guess this is an extension of my earlier gripe about how the connection between the two groups was played up but you the player barely get anything to do with it.

The Thieves' Guild has a fairly strict "no murder" policy as its standard practice. In spite of their ties, they are very explicit that they are separate groups that work together, not two branches of the same group.

[Rater202]

The Thieves' Guild has a fairly strict "no murder" policy as its standard practice. In spite of their ties, they are very explicit that they are separate groups that work together, not two branches of the same group.

I am aware.

But just because Delvin and the Player won't kill him, that doesn't mean that the cross membership and ties wouldn't lead to other members of the Brotherhood who are not members of the Thieves guild to find out and do something about the rival Assassin on their own time.

It only takes Babette wondering abut using Delvin's contacts to pick up some exotic reagents or Nazir heading to him to buy something for the sanctuary and running into the guy in the ragged flagon and...

and honestly, I just want to see the "oh crap" reaction when you tell him "We have professional ties to the dark brotherhood and some members of the guild are also in the brotherhood."

Like, his mentions of using the guild to hide from the Brotherhood aren't even unprompted, you ask him about why he didn't join the Dark Brotherhood and he explains why.

[Keltest]

I am aware.

But just because Delvin and the Player won't kill him, that doesn't mean that the cross membership and ties wouldn't lead to other members of the Brotherhood who are not members of the Thieves guild to find out and do something about the rival Assassin on their own time.

It only takes Babette wondering abut using Delvin's contacts to pick up some exotic reagents or Nazir heading to him to buy something for the sanctuary and running into the guy in the ragged flagon and...

and honestly, I just want to see the "oh crap" reaction when you tell him "We have professional ties to the dark brotherhood and some members of the guild are also in the brotherhood."

Like, his mentions of using the guild to hide from the Brotherhood aren't even unprompted, you ask him about why he didn't join the Dark Brotherhood and he explains why.

If anything, i would expect the ties to the Brotherhood to be a selling point, since it means theyre less likely to arbitrarily assassinate him and risk ticking off the Guild.

[Rater202]

If anything, i would expect the ties to the Brotherhood to be a selling point, since it means theyre less likely to arbitrarily assassinate him and risk ticking off the Guild.

The Brotherhood has rules against killing dark brothers or sisters, and "they'll kill me if they find out I'm Tong" is his sole reason for not joining, so he clearly believes that the Brotherhood finding out about him will lead to his death regardless.

For crap's sake, I'm pretty sure I was wearing my Shrouded Armor the first time I talked to him.

It's just an obvious interaction point that I think is missing.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

For the whole "Haskill is the vestige of a mortal who mantled Sheogorath" this seems to be part of one of Michael Kirkbride's ideas.

One of ESO’s ‘[Insertname] Answers Your Questions’ actually.

To be fair, Haskill being a vestige of a previous mantelling... Maybe it happens every era but this is the first time it worked? Ardin Sul(who may or may not be a composite of two or more mortals) died of their excesses or paranoia before being able to assume the role while Haskill... something went wrong so instead of becoming Seogorath he just ended up subsumed by him. Killed by Jyggalag and his soul subsumed unto sheogorath when Jyggalag vanished and reformed into Sheogorath...

From Sheo’s dialogue it sounded like he tried to do something different every Greymarch (he mentions a pit of clowns on a previous attempt) so my headcanon for that is that Haskill was attempting to mantle Jyggalag so the role would already be filled when Sheo started to slide into it, and it just didn’t work.

Eh. It's not really so much that nothing you do matters, it's that crises are not things that just happen once and then never again throughout history.

The Nerevarine securing about 200 years of peace for Morrowind is not nothing, and there will likely be a similar period of peace after SKyrim as well.

The Hero saving Tamriel from the Oblivion invasion isn't invalidated just because another threat happened to swoop in and cause trouble later. They...wouldn't have been able to do so if everybody was dead because Mehrunes Dagon came through and murdered them all.

Saying "nothing matters" because the game has sequels, basically, is just weird logic. It's kinda like saying World War II's conclusion didn't matter because it didn't bring about world peace forever.

Nitpick: the Red Year wasn’t all that long after the Oblivion Crisis (it happened in the year 4E 5). Otherwise agree, although I also agree it seems likely there’ll be another disaster soon after the existing Skyrim messes are cleaned up. (Falmer invasion? Magical anomaly rips the region in half? Elenwen declared High Queen somehow? The possibilities are endless...)

You know, as you progress the Thieves guild quest in Skyrim and bring in more recruits, there's that one guy whose Morong Tong and joined th eThives Guild after coming to Skyrim because the Dark Brotherhood would have killed him if he tried to join and they fond ou he was Tong...

I really wish there was an option to tell him that he made a bad choice. Between Dlvin and possibly the player there are two DB members in the Thieves Guild, albeit one retired.

Like, I don't want to kill him or anything, just tell him "you know we have ties to the Brotherhood, right?"

I guess this is an extension of my earlier gripe about how the connection between the two groups was played up but you the player barely get anything to do with it.

Last time I became Listener I wanted to invite him in. He’s already got the relevant skillset, and the Brotherhood by that point is down to three named people, four if you spared Cicero. There aren’t even enough people to make a new Black Hand of Speakers, never mind Silencers and lower-ranking Brothers and Sisters. So I’d be more than willing to turn a blind eye to the minor inconvenience that our factions used to be mortal enemies so long as he agrees to do the same, and is willing to be loyal to the Brotherhood and obey the Five Tenets from then on.

[Fyraltari]

One of ESO’s ‘[Insertname] Answers Your Questions’ actually.

Those aren't in-game, are they?

From Sheo’s dialogue it sounded like he tried to do something different every Greymarch (he mentions a pit of clowns on a previous attempt) so my headcanon for that is that Haskill was attempting to mantle Jyggalag so the role would already be filled when Sheo started to slide into it, and it just didn’t work.

That's an interesting idea. Personally I like the theory that Haskill (and Dyus) are similar to Barbas. Special Daedra created by their Prince with a piece of themselves to fullfill a very important task (companionship, keeping the library in order, being annoyed by the general nonsense).

Nitpick: the Red Year wasn’t all that long after the Oblivion Crisis (it happened in the year 4E 5). Otherwise agree, although I also agree it seems likely there’ll be another disaster soon after the existing Skyrim messes are cleaned up. (Falmer invasion? Magical anomaly rips the region in half? Elenwen declared High Queen somehow? The possibilities are endless...)

Return of the Dwemer, Maormer invasion, Akaviri invasion, Sload invasion, skooma shortage, giants taking over, ...

Last time I became Listener I wanted to invite him in. He’s already got the relevant skillset, and the Brotherhood by that point is down to three named people, four if you spared Cicero. There aren’t even enough people to make a new Black Hand of Speakers, never mind Silencers and lower-ranking Brothers and Sisters. So I’d be more than willing to turn a blind eye to the minor inconvenience that our factions used to be mortal enemies so long as he agrees to do the same, and is willing to be loyal to the Brotherhood and obey the Five Tenets from then on.

Thing is, if he was Morag Tong, he's a worshipper of Mephala, would he convert like that? And if the Night Mother truly is Mephala in disguise purposefully putting her followers against one another, she might not approve of your decision. And if she's not then she's probably still pissed at the Morag Tong for whatever it was that made her split way back when.

[veti]

The Nerevarine securing about 200 years of peace for Morrowind is not nothing, and there will likely be a similar period of peace after SKyrim as well.

From the Nerevarine to the Red Year was, canonically, eleven years, not 200. That's... not a lot of peace and prosperity, especially as the Oblivion Crisis came almost exactly midway.

When I first began playing Skyrim and heard about the Red Year, it felt like a kick in the teeth.

The Hero saving Tamriel from the Oblivion invasion isn't invalidated just because another threat happened to swoop in and cause trouble later. They...wouldn't have been able to do so if everybody was dead because Mehrunes Dagon came through and murdered them all.

Would Dagon have murdered them all? Seems to me he'd have been content with a suitably servile mortal population. After all, he enjoys being worshipped as much as any other daedric prince. This is what Mankar Camoran thinks will happen:

Hear now the words of Lord Dagon: "When I walk the earth again, the faithful among you shall receive your reward: to be set above all other mortals forever. As for the rest… the weak shall be winnowed; the timid shall be cast down; the mighty shall tremble at my feet and pray for pardon."

So the end result sounds like tyranny, with only enough genocide to enforce it. As far as regular people are concerned - is that so much worse than the rulers and wars they have to put up with now?

No, Oblivion is about saving the Tamrielic Empire. It begins with one emperor, and ends with another. And, we now know, the Empire did not really survive those events after all - not meaningfully. (An empire that can't prevent one of its provinces from launching a full-on invasion of another - is not much of an empire.)

[Fyraltari]

Would Dagon have murdered them all? Seems to me he'd have been content with a suitably servile mortal population. After all, he enjoys being worshipped as much as any other daedric prince. This is what Mankar Camoran thinks will happen

Mankar Camoran is a liar. Remember his "Paradise"? Mehrunes Dagon is the Prince of Destruction he only cares for worshippers because they destroy things in his name he would totally slaughter everybody on Nirn if he could.

Not all Daedric Princes enjoy being worshipped, Boethiah is known to kill mortals who try to flatter her.

[Triaxx]

I wonder if perhaps Haskil's attempt to mantle Sheonwas disrupted by one of his Jyggalg transformations and so Haskil ended up super sane and organized. Maddeningly so.

Dagon's a weird one. One of the in-game books has his origin's as one of a pair who were tricking Alduin into having progressively more trouble eating the world and was subsequently banished to Oblivion for it.

[Fyraltari]

Dagon's a weird one. One of the in-game books has his origin's as one of a pair who were tricking Alduin into having progressively more trouble eating the world and was subsequently banished to Oblivion for it.

Is that really an in-game book? I thought that was an "Obscure Text".

[InvisibleBison]

Is that really an in-game book? I thought that was an "Obscure Text".

According to UESP, it's a piece of unofficial lore.


On an unrelated note, I learned something today that I found somewhat amusing: The word "hircine" means goat-like, or more specifically resembling the smell of a goat. What this implies about the Lord of the Hunt I'm not certain, but I doubt it reflects well on his odor.

[Grim Portent]

Hircine is the god of man-beasts, hunts and the savage parts of nature. I honestly imagine he smells like a mix of various fauna like deer, wolves and bears, with a bit of sweat, raw meat and old blood thrown in. It's not going to be a good odour by any means.

[veti]

So, apologies to those of you who thought of this nine years ago, when Dragonborn was published, but...

We know there have been many Dragonborn, but very few of them before have actually killed dragons. Think about it. All the dragons buried around Skyrim were killed by ordinary people - that's how Alduin is able to resurrect them. The only place we see the remains of permadead dragons is on Solstheim.

So it occurred to me that when "the very oldest tales" talk of the Dragonborn stealing a dragon's soul and its power - they're talking about Miraak. So far as we can tell, he's the only one who's done it before.

So there you have it. He, of all people, is the entire basis of the prophecy and the whole mythos.

[Lurkmoar]

So, apologies to those of you who thought of this nine years ago, when Dragonborn was published, but...

We know there have been many Dragonborn, but very few of them before have actually killed dragons. Think about it. All the dragons buried around Skyrim were killed by ordinary people - that's how Alduin is able to resurrect them. The only place we see the remains of permadead dragons is on Solstheim.

So it occurred to me that when "the very oldest tales" talk of the Dragonborn stealing a dragon's soul and its power - they're talking about Miraak. So far as we can tell, he's the only one who's done it before.

So there you have it. He, of all people, is the entire basis of the prophecy and the whole mythos.

You forgot Reman Cyrodil and Tiber Septim there, chief. At the very least, Reman did some dragon soul snacking.

[Lord Raziere]

You forgot Reman Cyrodil and Tiber Septim there, chief. At the very least, Reman did some dragon soul snacking.

That and Elder Scrolls has "greater ages have passed" kind thing going like most fantasy.

it could simply be there used to be more dragons and more dragonborn who ate them. but when the first died, well the profession of being Dragonborn kind of died with it. thus all those who inherited the dragonborn inheritance would be less powerful politically and metaphysically once the dragonborn who had all the souls passed away. thus their numbers dwindled until you get the Last Dragonborn- the last one who will ever exist. the Dragons coming back are simply those remaining, they're probably diminished but the amount of people who can truly kill them are only a single guy, two if you count Miraak and he is trapped in Apocrypha.

so its like, sure the Dragons today probably aren't as many as there used to be, but if the Last Dragonborn wasn't there, it wouldn't matter since no one would be able to stop them. there is only 27 shouts in Skyrim, the maximum of amount of souls you'd need to unlock them all would be 81 Dragons. so it wouldn't surprise me if the number of dragons in the Fourth Age is less than 100, and that there used to be more.

[veti]

You forgot Reman Cyrodil and Tiber Septim there, chief. At the very least, Reman did some dragon soul snacking.

Tiber Septim didn't kill any dragons, everyone's agreed on that. ("There weren't any dragons in his time, idiot. They're just coming back now for the first time in - forever.") Reman - I don't know, but the timeline doesn't seem to add up. The last of the dragon cult was wiped out - marking the end of the Dragon War - in 1e 140, and Reman doesn't appear on the scene until more than 2500 years later.

there is only 27 shouts in Skyrim, the maximum of amount of souls you'd need to unlock them all would be 81 Dragons.

Less. Remember, you get a good 16 words unlocked for free by completing the main quest.

(2 words of Unrelenting Force, 1 word each of Whirlwind Sprint and Fire Breath, plus all three words each of Clear Skies, Dragonrend, Call Dragon, and Call of Valour.)

[Lurkmoar]

The Akavri Dragon Guard did some dragon hunting with Reman. It's mentioned in the in-game book about Alduin's Wall. The one that Esbern drops on the table during the quest.

[veti]

The Akavri Dragon Guard did some dragon hunting with Reman. It's mentioned in the in-game book about Alduin's Wall. The one that Esbern drops on the table during the quest.

OK, so apparently "a dragon was located and slain" in 2818. (Clearly a very unusual event at this time, may have been the Dragonguard's only kill.) There's nothing to indicate Reman was personally present for that, though.

[Rater202]

So, apologies to those of you who thought of this nine years ago, when Dragonborn was published, but...

We know there have been many Dragonborn, but very few of them before have actually killed dragons. Think about it. All the dragons buried around Skyrim were killed by ordinary people - that's how Alduin is able to resurrect them. The only place we see the remains of permadead dragons is on Solstheim.

So it occurred to me that when "the very oldest tales" talk of the Dragonborn stealing a dragon's soul and its power - they're talking about Miraak. So far as we can tell, he's the only one who's done it before.

So there you have it. He, of all people, is the entire basis of the prophecy and the whole mythos.

Yes, that is stated in-game.

If you beat Skyrim's main quest line Mirraak can sense that you slew Alduin and dismisses it, explicitly stating that he could have done it ages ago if he'd wanted to.

The entire reason there's a prophecy about us and therefore a need for Dragonborn between Miraak and us is because Miraak chose to ignore the purpose for which he was created and serve the dragons and later Herma Mora instead carrying only for his own power.

On the previous Dragonborn: While it's not known if Tiber Septim slew dragons, it is known that during his time as Emperor that he had a dragon working for him: Nahfahlaar, or Nafaalilargus to use th name he went by in Redguard.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

On the previous Dragonborn: While it's not known if Tiber Septim slew dragons, it is known that during his time as Emperor that he had a dragon working for him: Nahfahlaar, or Nafaalilargus to use th name he went by in Redguard.

There is also this:

One of the more far-fetched stories has Tiber Septim absorbing their essences when he ascended to godhood.

[Lurkmoar]

Wasn't Wulfharth, Ysmir, Dragon of the North, Dragonborn as well?

Nothing specific about him fighting dragons though, except for fighting the ghost of Aludin. Find it weird that he's mentioned to have grown older then the Greybeards, seeing as they wouldn't exist until after the Disaster at Red Mountain. And there's nothing to indicate that the Greybeards have access to a life extending thu'um or other methods of longevity. But who knows, shouting at time to turn back the clock would fit right in with the Elder Scrolls lore.

[Keltest]

Wasn't Wulfharth, Ysmir, Dragon of the North, Dragonborn as well?

Nothing specific about him fighting dragons though, except for fighting the ghost of Aludin. Find it weird that he's mentioned to have grown older then the Greybeards, seeing as they wouldn't exist until after the Disaster at Red Mountain. And there's nothing to indicate that the Greybeards have access to a life extending thu'um or other methods of longevity. But who knows, shouting at time to turn back the clock would fit right in with the Elder Scrolls lore.

It could just be that theyre using the Greybeards as a standard unit of being a old man. The Greybeards are classically old, so if youre older than them, that means youre Really Old (tm).

[LibraryOgre]

So, how Highlander are the Dragonborn, anyway?

When you kill Miraak, you get all the souls he stole from you, plus a few more.

If, on my deathbed, I have a Dragonborn heir, can they kill me and absorb all of my dragon souls?

[Rater202]

So, how Highlander are the Dragonborn, anyway?

When you kill Miraak, you get all the souls he stole from you, plus a few more.

If, on my deathbed, I have a Dragonborn heir, can they kill me and absorb all of my dragon souls?

If we assume that "last" is metaphorical, then presumably yes.

Unless of course, those are only the souls he hasn't integrated to learn shouts.

I'm honestly confused how it works. In-game you spend a soul to gain an understanding of a word, but the way people talk about it it sounds like the simple act of Absorbing a dragon's soul gives significantly more knowledge and power than just a single word.

Furthermore, earning words is separate from learning shouts, and most shouts do not have any dragons in-game that use them. And several shouts are different when learned by the Dragonborn compared to by Dragons.

[Keltest]

If we assume that "last" is metaphorical, then presumably yes.

Unless of course, those are only the souls he hasn't integrated to learn shouts.

I'm honestly confused how it works. In-game you spend a soul to gain an understanding of a word, but the way people talk about it it sounds like the simple act of Absorbing a dragon's soul gives significantly more knowledge and power than just a single word.

Furthermore, earning words is separate from learning shouts, and most shouts do not have any dragons in-game that use them. And several shouts are different when learned by the Dragonborn compared to by Dragons.

The Dragon shouts are different as a function of game play. Imagine that they're really drawing out the vowel in the last word of Fire Breath to make it last longer, if it helps. But in the lore, it isn't different.

[InvisibleBison]

Imagine that they're really drawing out the vowel in the last word of Fire Breath to make it last longer, if it helps.

If you listen to a dragon using its shouts, that's actually what they're doing.

[Rater202]

...I am now imagining pinning comeone agaisnt a wall with pure concussive force with "Fus... Ro DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!"

[Fyraltari]

I'm honestly confused how it works. In-game you spend a soul to gain an understanding of a word, but the way people talk about it it sounds like the simple act of Absorbing a dragon's soul gives significantly more knowledge and power than just a single word.

Furthermore, earning words is separate from learning shouts, and most shouts do not have any dragons in-game that use them. And several shouts are different when learned by the Dragonborn compared to by Dragons.

They say that absorbing dragon souls results in absorbing some of their understanding of the Thu'um. So I guess that spending a soul on a word represents the Dragonborn consuming that soul while focusing on that specific word to get the dragon's understanding of it. Of course this means that you shouldn't be able to save souls for later use when you kill a dragon without having known but locked words, but that'd be a pain in the ass.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "it sounds like the simple act of Absorbing a dragon's soul gives significantly more knowledge and power than just a single word" but if that's true you can probably chalk it up to the people you're talking to not being Dovahkiin themselves and therefore explaining stuff they only know from second-hand sources.

[veti]

It could just be that theyre using the Greybeards as a standard unit of being a old man. The Greybeards are classically old, so if youre older than them, that means youre Really Old (tm).

With a lower-case "G", "greybeard" simply means "old man". And we know how inconsistent Capitalisation can be. A source may even be translated from a language, like Draconic or Falmer, that didn't have a concept of capital letters at all.

In this case, it may mean simply "older than the average of all the really old guys I happen to know".

[factotum]

I'm honestly confused how it works. In-game you spend a soul to gain an understanding of a word, but the way people talk about it it sounds like the simple act of Absorbing a dragon's soul gives significantly more knowledge and power than just a single word.

I'm pretty sure the whole "spending a dragon soul" just lets you learn the words much faster than you would otherwise be able to. After all, Ulfric and the Greybeards are not Dragonborn and therefore can't have any dragon souls to spend in the first place, but they all managed to learn the Shout anyway--the implication is that it took them a lot of study to do that, though.