The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[Anteros]

Last time I became Listener I wanted to invite him in. He’s already got the relevant skillset, and the Brotherhood by that point is down to three named people, four if you spared Cicero. There aren’t even enough people to make a new Black Hand of Speakers, never mind Silencers and lower-ranking Brothers and Sisters. So I’d be more than willing to turn a blind eye to the minor inconvenience that our factions used to be mortal enemies so long as he agrees to do the same, and is willing to be loyal to the Brotherhood and obey the Five Tenets from then on.

Would the Tong's skill set even carry over? They basically just openly murder people and rely on writs to avoid consequences. It's a completely different skill set than the Dark Brotherhood uses to operate in secrecy outside the law.

[Fyraltari]

Would the Tong's skill set even carry over? They basically just openly murder people and rely on writs to avoid consequences. It's a completely different skill set than the Dark Brotherhood uses to operate in secrecy outside the law.

The Morag Tong still has to bypass whatever defences the target has. Since the Tong has under its belt one Emperor and two Akaviri Potentates (one of which was killed inside the goddam Imperial Palace), it can be surmised that they are pretty good at this.

I'm not sure what source I got it from, but I think I remember it said that to better honor Mephala, the best Morag Tong assassins mix their murder with sex and deception, usually by seducing the target and murdering them in bed.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Would the Tong's skill set even carry over? They basically just openly murder people and rely on writs to avoid consequences. It's a completely different skill set than the Dark Brotherhood uses to operate in secrecy outside the law.

He’s in the Thieves’ Guild when we meet him, so he’s got to have at least some level of stealth.

[Rater202]

The Morag Tong still has to bypass whatever defences the target has. Since the Tong has under its belt one Emperor and two Akaviri Potentates (one of which was killed inside the goddam Imperial Palace), it can be surmised that they are pretty good at this.

I'm not sure what source I got it from, but I think I remember it said that to better honor Mephala, the best Morag Tong assassins mix their murder with sex and deception, usually by seducing the target and murdering them in bed.

...It sounds like the Tong are just kind of all-around worse than the Brotherhood.

I know that the Brotherhood is not meant to be good guys by any means, but for the most part, they just go in and do it cleanly.

[Rynjin]

...It sounds like the Tong are just kind of all-around worse than the Brotherhood.

I know that the Brotherhood is not meant to be good guys by any means, but for the most part, they just go in and do it cleanly.

It depends what you use to define "worse".

The Morag Tong are like a...collared attack dog. They kill based on government contract and have limitations on the ways they can act which are enforceable. They have accountability, to a certain extent. You always know when a Tong member has killed someone, because they will admit it, and show their papers. Unsanctioned executions can be punished severely, and the organization has incentive to enforce this because they jeopardize the cult's legitimacy, which could lead to government reprisals or a removal of their sanctioning. The Tong also, nominally, are supposed to kill only the target. Their Writs of Execution are for a specific individual, not them and others. This makes their actions further restricted and "clean".


The Brotherhood are like a pack of rabid wolves. They kill for the pure joy of killing, and money. There is no accountability, no limits to what they'll do. You pay, they play. That's all there is to it. And they don't really care about collateral, either.

The Morag Tong are a group of Agent 47's. Evil, amoral, but with a code.

The Brotherhood are a group of similar evil, amoral individuals...without the code. A loose confederation of Ed Geins and Ted Bundys.

Is that necessarily "worse" or "more evil", maybe not. Evil is evil, killing is killing. But at the very least the Morag Tong are leashed. The average person is extremely unlikely to ever be on the business end of one of their executions. Not so when it comes to the Brotherhood, who will take any contract, from anyone, for any reason, and for an appallingly low amount of money if the target is considered easy enough. This makes their services accessible to the common man. Which means they will, for example, take a contract to murder a homeless man in his sleep because he's lowering the property values in Ivarstead.

[Fyraltari]

...It sounds like the Tong are just kind of all-around worse than the Brotherhood.

I know that the Brotherhood is not meant to be good guys by any means, but for the most part, they just go in and do it cleanly.

Rynjin said it very well but I want to add: at the end of the day they are both murder cults so of course they attract despicable people and any sort of standard they have is contemptible but the DB is, in my opinion worse than the MT.

The Tong at least have some sort of justification for their actions as they are dedicated to the law-giver of their people's main religion and exist to prevent House Wars. The Dark Brotherhood straight-up worship death as a concept and kill for killing's sake.

Hell, the Morag Tong's contract have an expiration date. Evade them long enough (or kill their assassin) and they'll call it off (unless they're re-hired of course), in a way it's a weird version of an honour-duel, really.

Also, Tribunal shows that the Morrowind chapter of the DB considered Dagoth Ur a natural ally, which is just messed up.

Edit: I'm also unclear how the Dark Brotherhood would be "cleaner" than the Morag Tong.

[Eldan]

Yeah. The DB may think it's perhaps not very elegant, but there are members like Gogron in Oblivion, who are perhaps lightly criticized, but not exiled or anything:

Gogron: "But why, Sister? What is the point? Why should anyone bother with all that sneaking and skulking?"
Telaendril: "My dear Gogron, you are a life-taker for the Dark Brotherhood! Our very existence relies on shadow and deception. Do you not value our secrets?"
Gogron: "Yes, yes, of course I value our secrets, and I have never betrayed them! But using stealth to kill.... It's just so... weak."
Telaendril: "But Brother, what of the contracts that require subtlety! You must at least strive to earn the bonuses that are offered?"
Gogron: "Bonuses? Ha ha ha ha ha! Useless, I say! Gold and magical trinkets are no substitute for the freedom to slaughter anyone I please, at any time!"
Telaendril: "Oh, Gogron! He he he he. Your methods may be crude, but your heart is always in the right place."

Talking a bit more About him, he has amongst other things killed a six year old girl on her birthday.

[Rater202]

Edit: I'm also unclear how the Dark Brotherhood would be "cleaner" than the Morag Tong.

I don't know, sneaking into someone's house and dropping a stuffed minotaur head on them in such a way that they are killed instantly or burying a blade in them as they sleep seems cleaner than seducing them and then decapitating them while you're having sex.

There's also the fact that Sithis is, arguably, simply a personification of the natural forces of chaos and entropy while Mephea is, despite being considered one of the "good Deadra" one of the more actively malevolent ones what with being the literal God of Lies and Murder.

I mean, she gives you a weapon that gets stronger if you betray and murder your friends and family. God of Corruption doesn't do that. The God of Treachery doesn't even do that.

As far as I can tell, the Ebony Blade is also the only Deadric artifact that explicitly warps the mind of the user.

The Brotherhood might be mad dogs, but if the Tong weren't sanctioned by the EMpire I don't think they'd be any better considering that they openly worship that bastard

[Keltest]

I don't know, sneaking into someone's house and dropping a stuffed minotaur head on them in such a way that they are killed instantly or burying a blade in them as they sleep seems cleaner than seducing them and then decapitating them while you're having sex.

There's also the fact that Sithis is, arguably, simply a personification of the natural forces of chaos and entropy while Mephea is, despite being considered one of the "good Deadra" one of the more actively malevolent ones what with being the literal God of Lies and Murder.

I mean, she gives you a weapon that gets stronger if you betray and murder your friends and family. God of Corruption doesn't do that. The God of Treachery doesn't even do that.

As far as I can tell, the Ebony Blade is also the only Deadric artifact that explicitly warps the mind of the user.

The Brotherhood might be mad dogs, but if the Tong weren't sanctioned by the EMpire I don't think they'd be any better considering that they openly worship that bastard

Subtlety is considered a bonus (literally) for the Brotherhood, not a prerequisite. Their only actual promise is death.

[Rater202]

Subtlety is considered a bonus (literally) for the Brotherhood, not a prerequisite. Their only actual promise is death.

It's still encouraged. Apparently, from what I'm being told here, the Tong encourage you to decapitate your targets while having sex with them if you can.

Decapitation is a very messy way to die, and unless you go into shock it can take a while: A study done during the French Revolution using a subject executed by Guillotine established that in some cases a decapitation victim is still alive and has some degree of awareness, enough to respond to stimuli, up to ten minutes after decapitation.

Even just going in and bashing someone's skull in with a hammer would be 'cleaner's in that it would be quick compared to decapitation. Though, admittedly, it'd probably be messier in a literal sense.

[Divayth Fyr]

It's still encouraged. Apparently, from what I'm being told here, the Tong encourage you to decapitate your targets while having sex with them if you can.

No? Fyraltari did mention that

I'm not sure what source I got it from, but I think I remember it said that to better honor Mephala, the best Morag Tong assassins mix their murder with sex and deception, usually by seducing the target and murdering them in bed.

but:
1. I'm not sure I recall such a thing - though I guess it may be an ESO invention. But it may also be a fan idea.
2. "murdering in bed" can mean a huge variety of things. Poisoned lipstick, poisoned wine, poisoned needles, regular stabbing, strangling with a pillow and so on and so forth. The only person specifically mentioning decapitation in the last page or two was you.

[Keltest]

No? Fyraltari did mention that


but:
1. I'm not sure I recall such a thing - though I guess it may be an ESO invention. But it may also be a fan idea.
2. "murdering in bed" can mean a huge variety of things. Poisoned lipstick, poisoned wine, poisoned needles, regular stabbing, strangling with a pillow and so on and so forth. The only person specifically mentioning decapitation in the last page or two was you.

The Tong also specifically require that there be no collateral damage. Your Writ only gets you out of crimes committed directly regarding the specific contracted victim, it doesnt give you the ability to murder everybody you feel like on the way, even if they have guards or something. The Brotherhood does not require that, and at times even wants collateral damage, depending on the contract.

[Rater202]

...I'm sorry, I think I had a brain fart.

I think my point on worshiping Mephela being worse than worshipping Sithis stands though.

[Fyraltari]

...I'm sorry, I think I had a brain fart.

I think my point on worshiping Mephela being worse than worshipping Sithis stands though.

Honestly if your worship consists solely of killing folks, I think whose name you're doing it in hardly matters.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

1. I'm not sure I recall such a thing - though I guess it may be an ESO invention. But it may also be a fan idea.

I remember an ESO text about Mephala cultists seducing people but not specifically the Morag Tong. Here. Tong style guide hinted they still acknowledge Mephala but presumably not openly since they’re officially supposed to be worshiping Vivec in the second Era.

The Tong also specifically require that there be no collateral damage. Your Writ only gets you out of crimes committed directly regarding the specific contracted victim, it doesnt give you the ability to murder everybody you feel like on the way, even if they have guards or something. The Brotherhood does not require that, and at times even wants collateral damage, depending on the contract.

Adding to this: there are Dark Brotherhood radiant quests in ESO where they don’t even have a specific target, ‘go here, kill a bunch of people’ is the entire objective.

[Fyraltari]

I remember an ESO text about Mephala cultists seducing people but not specifically the Morag Tong. Here.

Well, there's also 2920: the Last Year where Reman the Third is assassinated by his lover, a Morag Tong agent, but that book is historical fiction so it's not exactly reliable.
I suspect I have fallen victim to a game of telephone, though.

Tong style guide hinted they still acknowledge Mephala but presumably not openly since they’re officially supposed to be worshiping Vivec in the second Era.

Are you sure of that? I don't recall any mention of the Tong worshipping Vivec even in pretense. I mean, the whole deal with the Anticiaptions is that the Tribunal couldn't get rid of the worship of the Good Deadra and co-opted it instead, so it'd be weird if Vivec forced what is arguably the most powerful Daedric cult in Morrowind to switch gods.

[LibraryOgre]

Are you sure of that? I don't recall any mention of the Tong worshipping Vivec even in pretense. I mean, the whole deal with the Anticiaptions is that the Tribunal couldn't get rid of the worship of the Good Deadra and co-opted it instead, so it'd be weird if Vivec forced what is arguably the most powerful Daedric cult in Morrowind to switch gods.

OTOH, they are mostly Dunmer raised in the Tribunal... at least notional devotion to the False Tribunal among a lot of members is not unreasonable.

[Fyraltari]

OTOH, they are mostly Dunmer raised in the Tribunal... at least notional devotion to the False Tribunal among a lot of members is not unreasonable.

Oh, definitely, I'm sure they also had a lot of respect for Vivec as an emanation of Mephala of sorts, too.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Are you sure of that? I don't recall any mention of the Tong worshipping Vivec even in pretense. I mean, the whole deal with the Anticiaptions is that the Tribunal couldn't get rid of the worship of the Good Deadra and co-opted it instead, so it'd be weird if Vivec forced what is arguably the most powerful Daedric cult in Morrowind to switch gods.

Remember that the Tong had gotten themselves into quite a bit of trouble after the assassinations of Reman III and the Potentates, so ‘most powerful Daedric cult’ would have been a stretch.

In order to exist, the Morag Tong must have appealed to the highest power in Morrowind, which at that time, the Second Era, could only have been the Tribunal of Almalexia, Sotha Sil, and Vivec. Mephala, whom the Tong worshipped with Sithis, was said to have been the Anticipation of Vivec. Is it not logical to assume that in exchange for toleration of their continued existence, the Tong would have ceased their worship of Mephala in exchange for the worship of Vivec?

[...]

The Night Mother, my dear friend, is Mephala. The Dark Brotherhood of the west, unfettered by the orders of the Tribunal, continue to worship Mephala. They may not call her by her name, but the daedra of murder, sex, and secrets is their leader still. And they did not, and still do not, to this day, forgive their brethren for casting her aside.

Source.

[halfeye]

Decapitation is a very messy way to die, and unless you go into shock it can take a while: A study done during the French Revolution using a subject executed by Guillotine established that in some cases a decapitation victim is still alive and has some degree of awareness, enough to respond to stimuli, up to ten minutes after decapitation.

Ten minutes seems very improbable, brain death is known to occur in two minutes after the failure of oxygen supply.

[Aeson]

Regarding the discussion on the Morag Tong and its agents' skills, it is worth mentioning that the Tong is only known to be a sanctioned organization in Morrowind - the known terms of the Armistice are that the Empire has to be relatively hands-off in Morrowind; there are no known terms giving the government of Morrowind or its sanctioned organizations extraterritorial rights or protections in the rest of the Empire. There is no indication that the Tong's "honorable writs of execution" offer its assassins any legal protection beyond Morrowind's borders, so Tong assassins probably need to take more care to avoid legal troubles when pursuing targets abroad than they do at home, and there certainly aren't any known Morag Tong Guildhalls outside of the province in the 'modern' era. It is also worth mentioning that presenting a Writ as a get-out-of-jail-free card is sort of a last resort even in Morrowind, as you're supposed to kill the target without drawing the attention of the law.

As to the religious aspects of the two cults, I tend to feel that the in-game textual sources are poorly if at all supported by what we see of the cults in the games - Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood is very heavy on Sithis while Mephala is (almost?) unmentioned; meanwhile, Morag Tong headquarters in Morrowind houses an altar to Mephala. There is also the inconsistency in exactly who or what the Night Mother is - some of the in-game texts treat the Night Mother as a Dark Brotherhood chapter-master or perhaps the title of a Dark Brotherhood chapter-master, dialogue in Morrowind implies that the Dark Brotherhood can be contracted through the arcane art of "I know a guy who knows a guy," and the Nerevarine kills an NPC identified as the Night Mother in the course of the Morag Tong quest line, but in Oblivion and Skyrim the Night Mother has become some supernatural entity who receives prayers for murder and passes them on to the cult's leaders, seemingly in person at whatever place the Night Mother's corpse happens to reside, and it seems like the Black Sacrament might be required to contact the Brotherhood in Oblivion.

[Keltest]

I think its worth noting that the Dark Brotherhood, at least, goes out of its way to perpetuate myth and misinformation about their cult, and i cant imagine that the Morag Tong is especially fond of the idea of the general public knowing about their operations. I would treat any books on the subject with extreme skepticism, as almost all of them are written by outsiders and, whether or not they think they are definitive, are all absolutely speculation based on half-truths and general misinformation.

[Aeson]

Tangentially related to the Morag Tong / Dark Brotherhood discussion, but I just went to take a nap in Morag Tong HQ to level up a character (I triggered a level-advancement when I killed the rats in the storeroom), thought to myself that it'd been a while since the Dark Brotherhood had attacked me, and had my rest interrupted four times, by a total of five Dark Brotherhood assassins and an Ash Zombie. The Morag Tong really needs to step up their headquarters security; I was just across the bridge from the Grand Master.

(I am aware that it's random and mostly doesn't care where you are; I just thought it was funny, especially seeing as the last time I was attacked the Dark Brotherhood was sending individual assassins armed with Iron Spider Daggers and this time I was attacked by first one then two and then two again, all of whom were armed with Daedric wakizashis... and then the Ash Zombie showed up. All of this right in the heart of Morag Tong headquarters when I hadn't had any such issues for something like ten levels.)

[veti]

(I am aware that it's random and mostly doesn't care where you are; I just thought it was funny, especially seeing as the last time I was attacked the Dark Brotherhood was sending individual assassins armed with Iron Spider Daggers and this time I was attacked by first one then two and then two again, all of whom were armed with Daedric wakizashis... and then the Ash Zombie showed up. All of this right in the heart of Morag Tong headquarters when I hadn't had any such issues for something like ten levels.)

When I introduced a friend to Morrowind, Tribunal was already installed by default (GOTY edition), so the very first time he went to sleep he was jumped by the DB assassin. Which - was a bit much for him, at that stage.

I showed him how to beat the guy even at first level, and then the quality of the gear he was carrying. "So, I should think of this as a loot delivery system, then?"

Then I told him how to disable Tribunal until he felt ready to handle the encounter himself. I don't know if he ever got around to re-enabling it.

[Anteros]

When I introduced a friend to Morrowind, Tribunal was already installed by default (GOTY edition), so the very first time he went to sleep he was jumped by the DB assassin. Which - was a bit much for him, at that stage.

I showed him how to beat the guy even at first level, and then the quality of the gear he was carrying. "So, I should think of this as a loot delivery system, then?"

Then I told him how to disable Tribunal until he felt ready to handle the encounter himself. I don't know if he ever got around to re-enabling it.

That was basically my introduction to Morrowind as well. To the point where I also viewed it as a loot delivery system. You can gear up so fast and easily as a new player with that DLC. It basically broke the base game for me.

[Caelestion]

It was the first sign for me that Bethesda were more interested in shoving content in your face than actually writing a properly integrated plot. I like Tribunal, but the start sequence with the assassin is indefensible.

[veti]

It was the first sign for me that Bethesda were more interested in shoving content in your face than actually writing a properly integrated plot. I like Tribunal, but the start sequence with the assassin is indefensible.

In Bethesda's defence, they did seem to learn this lesson. Bloodmoon was much lower key, and all the DLCs for Oblivion and Skyrim have been... fairly reasonable.

(I have a few reservations about the Dragonborn cultists, but even they wait for a plausible stage in the story before appearing.)

[Lurkmoar]

Ah, the Dawnguard Vampire attacks. I learned to stop at certain areas at night if I was anywhere near the city, manually waited a few hours to skip to morning. If I didn't, some townie would try to fight Master Vampire or Death Hound with an iron dagger. Remember after one such attack, I got four letters of condolence.

From what I've read, those attacks were disabled in the Switch version.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Ah, the Dawnguard Vampire attacks. I learned to stop at certain areas at night if I was anywhere near the city, manually waited a few hours to skip to morning. If I didn't, some townie would try to fight Master Vampire or Death Hound with an iron dagger. Remember after one such attack, I got four letters of condolence.

I lost half the shopkeepers in Whiterun the same way. Downloaded a mod to fix it (‘When Vampires Attack’ IIRC) and never looked back.

[Fyraltari]

Honestly, I just wish Bethesda had made the townsfolk cowardly. What do these people think the guards are for, even?