The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[Eldan]

And it's even more essential for Oblivion. Starting in any city you want with some basic equipment instead of doing that sewer dungeon every time is great.

[Triaxx]

I mean... technically it's all tutorial in Oblivion, but it's half an hour at most. Unless I'm way better at Oblivion than I remember.

[Rynjin]

And it's even more essential for Oblivion. Starting in any city you want with some basic equipment instead of doing that sewer dungeon every time is great.

Or, again, you just make a save at the end of the sewer and then fast travel to whatever city you want to start in. Oblivion gives you that option, so the utility of an ASLAL equivalent is limited. It's an actual NECESSITY for Skyrim if you want to skip the tutorial; there's no way to do it otherwise.

[veti]

Or, again, you just make a save at the end of the sewer and then fast travel to whatever city you want to start in. Oblivion gives you that option, so the utility of an ASLAL equivalent is limited. It's an actual NECESSITY for Skyrim if you want to skip the tutorial; there's no way to do it otherwise.

As I recall, Oblivion even auto saves just before you exit the sewer, and gives you the option to rewrite your character completely when you do. So basically there's no reason for anyone to do the tutorial more than once unless they want to.

[Vinyadan]

As I recall, Oblivion even auto saves just before you exit the sewer, and gives you the option to rewrite your character completely when you do. So basically there's no reason for anyone to do the tutorial more than once unless they want to.

Or they reinstalled it and don't have the saves available.

[Rynjin]

Or they reinstalled it and don't have the saves available.

Uninstalling the game doesn't typically delete your saves unless you go out of your way to do so, at least if it's a Steam install.

[Vinyadan]

Different computer?

[Caelestion]

There might also be mod incompatibilities, say with a levelling system or large overhaul.

[Resileaf]

If doing the sewer tutorial is an issue because you're constantly changing computers, maybe the sewer tutorial isn't the issue here.

[Vinyadan]

If doing the sewer tutorial is an issue because you're constantly changing computers, maybe the sewer tutorial isn't the issue here.

Playing on more than one machine over 14 years? Madness, madness I say!

[Resileaf]

Playing on more than one machine over 14 years? Madness, madness I say!

In the past 14 years, I've had two or three different computers. I've done the tutorial sewers more often just for fun.

[Aeson]

As I recall, Oblivion even auto saves just before you exit the sewer, and gives you the option to rewrite your character completely when you do. So basically there's no reason for anyone to do the tutorial more than once unless they want to.

At least by default, Oblivion only has a single autosave, and you'll almost certainly overwrite it before you're ready for a new character unless you're looking to create a new character pretty much as soon as you've left the Imperial Prison Sewer. If you want to be able to skip the tutorial segment, you have to retain a manual save just before leaving the sewer.

Also, I would point out that the lighting at the sewer exit is bad, so it's not a great spot to change your character's appearance if you care about that sort of thing, and I also don't see any particular reason to expect someone to have old saves lying around if they'd previously uninstalled the game or are installing it on a new computer or something like that. There's also that having a lot of save files clutters the Load Game list, so if you're done with a character or have some saves that you're not going back to then you may as well delete or overwrite them, and if you're deleting or overwriting saves then there's always the possibility that you will delete or overwrite the wrong one. Additionally, your character will most likely have developed some skills during the tutorial; exactly what skills those are may be relevant to you, especially if you're going for 'perfect' levels.

[Resileaf]

At least by default, Oblivion only has a single autosave, and you'll almost certainly overwrite it before you're ready for a new character unless you're looking to create a new character pretty much as soon as you've left the Imperial Prison Sewer. If you want to be able to skip the tutorial segment, you have to retain a manual save just before leaving the sewer.

The autosave at the end of the sewer is an actual save file, not the usual autosave when you change zones or sleep.

[Aeson]

The autosave at the end of the sewer is an actual save file, not the usual autosave when you change zones or sleep.

Having literally just checked this in a fresh and completely unmodded install of Oblivion, I can assure you that this is untrue. Moreover, the only automatically-generated save file available for that test character immediately after exiting the sewers loads outside of the sewer exit, looking across Lake Rumare towards Vilverin - i.e. even if I immediately decided to change the character after exiting the sewer, I'd have to go back through the tutorial if I did not create a manual save prior to exiting the sewers, because the only available autosave is already beyond the point where I can change the character's race, class, and birthsign.

[Resileaf]

Having literally just checked this in a fresh and completely unmodded install of Oblivion, I can assure you that this is untrue. Moreover, the only automatically-generated save file available for that test character immediately after exiting the sewers loads outside of the sewer exit, looking across Lake Rumare towards Vilverin - i.e. even if I immediately decided to change the character after exiting the sewer, I'd have to go back through the tutorial if I did not create a manual save prior to exiting the sewers, because the only available autosave is already beyond the point where I can change the character's race, class, and birthsign.

You are right. This is my mistake, I'm so used to manually putting a save before the sewer exit that I mistook the game's save point as my own. I apologize.

[Anteros]

I quite enjoy that. It's nice, when starting a new game, to be able to sit back and just watch for a few minutes. Admittedly the "Your hands are bound" thing outlives its welcome, but only for about two minutes.

Man, I couldn't disagree with this more. I've straight up avoided starting new games in Skyrim just because I can't be bothered to sit through the tutorial, or install a mod to avoid it.

[LibraryOgre]

Man, I couldn't disagree with this more. I've straight up avoided starting new games in Skyrim just because I can't be bothered to sit through the tutorial, or install a mod to avoid it.

Morrowind and Oblivion's initial period of unarmed uselessness was at least short.

[Triaxx]

You can rush through that bit of Skyrim in about a minute and a half if you really want to.

[Rynjin]

You can rush through that bit of Skyrim in about a minute and a half if you really want to.

After a couple of unskippable cutscenes and forced dialogue, absolutely.

It's not the absolute length that's the issue, it's how slow paced and tedious it is.

[Anteros]

You can rush through that bit of Skyrim in about a minute and a half if you really want to.

The cart ride alone is 5 minutes, followed by another few minutes of the guards talking and the dragon arriving. It's a 10 minute investment at best. Which seems minor, but 10 minutes of tedium is a pretty big deterrent from starting a new game.

[factotum]

The cart ride alone is 5 minutes, followed by another few minutes of the guards talking and the dragon arriving. It's a 10 minute investment at best. Which seems minor, but 10 minutes of tedium is a pretty big deterrent from starting a new game.

Not to sound too much like "Get off my lawn, you darn kids" but when I was a lad we used to game on home computers, and in order to get said games started we had to load them in from cassette, a process that would typically take between five and ten minutes. When I got my first Amiga, with a floppy drive that could load games in as little as 30 seconds, it was a darned revelation!

TBH, you can skip the cart ride just by starting the game and then going to make a cup of coffee or going to the lavvy. You then have character creation, which can take anywhere between a couple of minutes and several hours depending how much fiddling you do, before you have the second unskippable scene before the dragon attacks. I've certainly had much worse starts to a game than that--Japanese RPGs in particular seem to enjoy giving you massive chunks of story setup at the start and then adding the gameplay in later. (I'm just playing Persona 4 Golden, where the first couple of hours gave you nothing to do other than occasionally click a dialogue option to move the story on!).

[Ortho]

TBH, you can skip the cart ride just by starting the game and then going to make a cup of coffee or going to the lavvy.

Yes, you can, but you shouldn't have to. The best way to enjoy a new game shouldn't be to go do something else entirely for the first few minutes.

A long wait time because of technological constraints is justifiable, but a long wait time because of a tedious cutscene that we don't want to see is just poor design.

[Silverraptor]

I have a save right at the character creation scene. That skips the cart ride any time I want to play a new game.

[Rynjin]

Not to sound too much like "Get off my lawn, you darn kids" but when I was a lad we used to game on home computers, and in order to get said games started we had to load them in from cassette, a process that would typically take between five and ten minutes. When I got my first Amiga, with a floppy drive that could load games in as little as 30 seconds, it was a darned revelation!

That's different, though. This is a technical limitation built into the hardware. There's nothing that could have been done about it.

Skyrim's tutorial segment is a deliberate developer choice that could have been different.

[Rodin]

Yes, you can, but you shouldn't have to. The best way to enjoy a new game shouldn't be to go do something else entirely for the first few minutes.

A long wait time because of technological constraints is justifiable, but a long wait time because of a tedious cutscene that we don't want to see is just poor design.

It's poor design from the perspective of a person replaying the game.

This mistake you're making is thinking Bethesda cares about that.

Most players don't return to large AAA games repeatedly. Most people who played Skyrim did so once, and most of them didn't finish the main quest. Article about game completion rates here

That's why these games have these elaborate set pieces at the start. They badly want to get you invested in the game, because that means you'll play through more of it and are likely to buy more games from them in the future. They don't care so much whether you finish the game, because most people don't. One of the results I got while searching indicated that Skyrim has around a 40% completion rate - and that's HIGH.

Would it be better design to stick a "skip opening sequence" button in your game? Sure. I don't think you can call it bad design either. They're weighting development resources towards what most players will experience, and they don't want players skipping the giant setpiece + tutorial segment that makes up a big chunk of the budget for the main story.

[Rynjin]

Those numbers don't really mean much for Skyrim. I have around 1000 hours in the game and haven't once finished the main quest. I doubt I'm alone in that.

[Triaxx]

Skyrim being a fantastic blast of a game has absolutely nothing to do with it's main story.

[Anteros]

It's poor design from the perspective of a person replaying the game.

This mistake you're making is thinking Bethesda cares about that.

Most players don't return to large AAA games repeatedly. Most people who played Skyrim did so once, and most of them didn't finish the main quest. Article about game completion rates here

That's why these games have these elaborate set pieces at the start. They badly want to get you invested in the game, because that means you'll play through more of it and are likely to buy more games from them in the future. They don't care so much whether you finish the game, because most people don't. One of the results I got while searching indicated that Skyrim has around a 40% completion rate - and that's HIGH.

Would it be better design to stick a "skip opening sequence" button in your game? Sure. I don't think you can call it bad design either. They're weighting development resources towards what most players will experience, and they don't want players skipping the giant setpiece + tutorial segment that makes up a big chunk of the budget for the main story.

Considering that they've released the game like 7 times now I don't buy the argument that they don't expect repeat customers.

[Lord Raziere]

Skyrim being a fantastic blast of a game has absolutely nothing to do with it's main story.

Indeed, all the best things done with it are exploits, mods, and exploiting mods. skyrim is something you make your own game out of with the endless ways you can deviate from baseline.

the only reason I'm not playing it now is because the downside is its so buggy especially with the number of mods I have, I can't be sure if will cooperate to actually allow me to do anything or just kick me back to desktop.

[Triaxx]

Special Edition seems to be more stable at least.

That said, I wouldn't call exploits fun personally. After a bit, I ask myself why don't I just TGM. Mods on the other hand really do liven the game up.