The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[The_Jackal]

This mistake you're making is thinking Bethesda cares about that.

There are a number of competing concerns when designing any software or entertainment product, and replay value is definitely very far down the list. That said, I don't think it's fair to say that Bethesda, or any triple-A game developer, doesn't care about replay value. They wouldn't be piling on trends like live service games and sticking PVP on PVE games if they didn't care about these things. Replay value is, I would argue, what brings the customer back to buy the next game. Skyrim sold Fallout 4, contrary to the opinions of the Interplay grognards which would have you believe otherwise. Fallout 4 sold Fallout 76. World of Warcraft sold Overwatch. Game developers have reputations, and those reputations are important, and the degree to which a game studio has autonomy from their publisher is often reflected in how much effort they put into replay value, as opposed to just churning out a minimum viable product that meets publisher timeline and budget goals.

As for the long Skyrim intro, there's a number of reasons it's put in, from a press demo to a tutorial, to a narrative hook to engage the player, but the reason they didn't put in an option to skip it is that they knew modders would take care of that for them. A lot of people **** on Bethesda for making buggy, unfinished games, and there's some truth to that, but the dissemination of modding tools, and support for those mods is, in my opinion, a hugely ingenious and successful strategy to engage your audience, satisfy diverse demands, and extend the value of your product with very little costs associated. It's why I knew from the word go that Fallout76 would be a disaster, because in no way could modding be permitted in a multiplayer live service game. Modding is what makes Bethesda games what they are, and if another developer/publisher adopted their approach, I really believe that Bethesda would be in big trouble, as I do think their inadequacies as a developer are forgiven in large part because their titles give players an opportunity to do things that simply aren't feasible in most other games.

[factotum]

That said, I don't think it's fair to say that Bethesda, or any triple-A game developer, doesn't care about replay value. They wouldn't be piling on trends like live service games and sticking PVP on PVE games if they didn't care about these things.

Live services and PVP in PVE games have nothing at all to do with the developer caring about replay value, and have everything to do with them caring about money. Skyrim is a purely single player game with none of those things in it, so once you've paid Bethesda for it once, you're not likely to pay again (ignoring Special Editions and the versions for your Casio watch and microwave oven, of course)--therefore, it's in their interests for you to play the game as little as possible; they want you to buy the *next* game, not keep playing the old one.

[Resileaf]

Live services and PVP in PVE games have nothing at all to do with the developer caring about replay value, and have everything to do with them caring about money. Skyrim is a purely single player game with none of those things in it, so once you've paid Bethesda for it once, you're not likely to pay again (ignoring Special Editions and the versions for your Casio watch and microwave oven, of course)--therefore, it's in their interests for you to play the game as little as possible; they want you to buy the *next* game, not keep playing the old one.

Considering the time it takes for the next game to arrive, I'd wager that's not entirely their goal.

[The_Jackal]

Live services and PVP in PVE games have nothing at all to do with the developer caring about replay value, and have everything to do with them caring about money.

You're pretending that those don't have anything to do with each other, but they do. Every business cares about making money, but how they make money is inexorably tied to the quality of their products. The types of businesses which don't need to worry about quality have barriers to entry which prevent competition, but that in no way resembles the modern gaming market.

Skyrim is a purely single player game with none of those things in it, so once you've paid Bethesda for it once, you're not likely to pay again (ignoring Special Editions and the versions for your Casio watch and microwave oven, of course)

That is a no true Scotsman fallacy if ever I saw one. The reason they're able to make money from these platform shifts is because there is a market for them. I will grant you that the market may not include you and me, but that doesn't mean that demand is non-existent. Also, I think the tendency to criticize releasing games to alternate platforms as a barrier to the creation of new content is entirely spurious. You don't need to be able to code a video game to compile and debug it for a different platform. The people working on Starfield and Elder Scrolls 6 are *not* being taken off of those projects so they can fix Skyrim for the Switch.

--therefore, it's in their interests for you to play the game as little as possible; they want you to buy the *next* game, not keep playing the old one.

And that's a non-sequitur. There is no correlation between not playing a game and buying the next one. When was the last time you bought a meal, didn't enjoy it, and then went back to the same restaurant to order another one? Why would you suppose that consumers act any differently toward a different type of product? Failed products destroy developers and publishers. How do you think Interplay went broke? They sunk a bunch of money into unproven developers, put out a series of poorly received games, and lost their market.

[Divayth Fyr]

I have a save right at the character creation scene. That skips the cart ride any time I want to play a new game.

Isn't that kinda a bad idea due to how Skyrim handles data and what gets written into the save?

[Vinyadan]

I have to say, I don't really like Skyrim's opening scene. The reasons are:

• Everyone is talking except you and the gagged guy, but you aren't gagged, and silence means no interaction. Why can't you have a dialogue? Maybe because the cart is moving, and in Skyrim time passes during dialogues.
• The guy telling you how you were captured. It's irrelevant, and nonsensical, since my character should already know that.
• You are told, not shown, that the gagged guy who is the king killed the king.
• The one character you could have developed some empathy for -- the one scared of being killed -- is shot in the back (DAO anyone?). You are left with a bunch of people who look and feel the irrelevant.
• Fake interaction: you can go to the block, or you can go to the block.
• You know that it's a bluff. You are not going to die. So that's why you should really die. Then you wake up, Helgen is destroyed, everyone is dead, and now there are two dragons: Alduin resurrected the one buried beneath the village. But you are Dovah, so you got resurrected, too. The two dragons interact with each other, may or may not notice you, then they leave (or try to strike you and cover you in a pile of rubble, welcome to your first dungeon). Suprised Pikachu face when you find out Alduin is actually a world-eating monster. Also, maybe make Alduin look deceptively similar to Akatosh, rather than like any other dragon.
• The audio mixing is atrocious. This is very evident in the priest's dialogue and when your friend adresses Ulfric in the tower.
• The dragon arrives, and suddenly the Legion decides to save you? Why? And don't you have anything to say about the whole thing?
• Ulfric without the gag isn't recognisable anymore. And why isn't he shouting legionaries left and right? That would have been an escape scene. But the game wants to keep itself neutral. They could have made Ulfric shine here, since he turns into a jerk by the time of the meeting on the mountain. And the treatment of the prisoners becomes even more incredible because of Ulfric's presence, as the undisturbed highest value target in the province.
• Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are completely safe while the dragon strikes, and it's very perceivable. This is part of a general disconnect between your character and the scene.

But I appreciate the attempt at taking it slow and making worldbuilding while representing desperate moments.

[Keltest]

Actually, its entirely possible to get killed and take damage in Helgen. its just difficult because nothing is actively targeting you. If you run into Alduin's flames, jump from a high place or otherwise do something that would obviously hurt, you take damage.

[factotum]

The real confusing thing about Helgen is its location. We learn later that Alduin is being methodical about resurrecting his dragon friends and doing them in a predictable order, but Helgen is right in the middle of the map with no dragon grave nearby--so what reason did he have for being there? I don't think anyone ever explains exactly why Alduin chose to destroy Helgen, especially when he doesn't do that with any other town or city in the whole of Skyrim.

[Anteros]

The real confusing thing about Helgen is its location. We learn later that Alduin is being methodical about resurrecting his dragon friends and doing them in a predictable order, but Helgen is right in the middle of the map with no dragon grave nearby--so what reason did he have for being there? I don't think anyone ever explains exactly why Alduin chose to destroy Helgen, especially when he doesn't do that with any other town or city in the whole of Skyrim.

It seems fairly obvious to me that he comes there to kill the Dragonborn. He just does a REALLY bad job.

[veti]

The real confusing thing about Helgen is its location. We learn later that Alduin is being methodical about resurrecting his dragon friends and doing them in a predictable order, but Helgen is right in the middle of the map with no dragon grave nearby--so what reason did he have for being there? I don't think anyone ever explains exactly why Alduin chose to destroy Helgen, especially when he doesn't do that with any other town or city in the whole of Skyrim.

As Delphine later points out, the big net effect of Alduin's intervention at Helgen is to keep the civil war going. Given that Alduin's primary food source is "the souls of fallen warriors", that makes it seem like a pretty sound move on his part.

As to how he would know that - now there you have me. But frankly that's about the 47th most puzzling thing about the whole setup.

[factotum]

It seems fairly obvious to me that he comes there to kill the Dragonborn. He just does a REALLY bad job.

...and then never, ever tries again, for reasons? Also, how would he know you were Dragonborn even before you, or the Greybeards, knew it?

[Fyraltari]

...and then never, ever tries again, for reasons? Also, how would he know you were Dragonborn even before you, or the Greybeards, knew it?

If you go to the Soul Cairn before killing any dragon, Durneviir will adress you as a fello dov and then admit he isn’t sure why he called you that, so it’s likely dragons can instinctively tell dragonborns and regular mortals apart. The first dragon you kill however doesn’t realize what you are until you start slurping on his soul so some dragons may be better at it than others, and Alduin having the unique power of resurrecting dragons, he may have a unique connection with dragon souls and be able to tell from a distance where a Dragonborn roughly is.
He doesn’t go after you once you’ve started killing dragons because he knows what Miraak could do and he’s not very brave so he’d hoped to kill you before you had absorbed any dragon soul and he sticks to this until you openly defy him and he can’t back down without losing face.

The only issue with that explanation is that he doesn’t pursue you between Helgen and Whiterun.

[factotum]

The only issue with that explanation is that he doesn’t pursue you between Helgen and Whiterun.

Especially since Riverwood would seem to be an even easier target than Helgen was. Heck, Alduin literally flies right over the top of you when you're standing outside the tutorial dungeon on the road to Riverwood, so if he could detect Dragonborn at ridiculous distances, very odd he didn't notice one right below his flight path!

[Caelestion]

It's a Bethesda story. Consistency in the plot has not been their strong point for many years.

[Keltest]

I mean, it could just be as simple as Alduin was in the area and felt like burning some poor folks. Presumably thats why all the other dragons attack cities full of guardsmen and hunters who have longbows, or the freaking college of winterhold.

[InvisibleBison]

I mean, it could just be as simple as Alduin was in the area and felt like burning some poor folks. Presumably thats why all the other dragons attack cities full of guardsmen and hunters who have longbows, or the freaking college of winterhold.

It could also be political. I've long been of the opinion that Alduin's goal was not to destroy the world but to conquer Skyrim. When he attacked Helgen, there were three major political figures present - Ulfric, Tullius and Elenwen. If he'd managed to kill all three of them, it would be much easier for him to take control of the region.

[Resileaf]

I have heard theories that Alduin was seeking the Dragonborn to kill them before they became a threat, but he does not actually know who we are, only that we exist. At first, he's only watching the execution, knowing that we're going to die eventually. But then something roars.

What if it wasn't Anduin that roars? The theory says that it's Paarthurnax, roaring a warning. Alduin hears it too. At first he does not react, but at the second roar, he begins to think "What if they postpone or cancel the execution?", and he decides that he can't take that risk, and flies down to take you out himself. Now remember, all Alduin knows is that you exist, but he can't actually tell who the Dragonborn is. Yet. If you wait and don't escape quickly enough, Alduin starts to pinpoint you better, and eventually, will try to attack you directly (it's telling that you go through so many close calls).

When you've finally escaped Helgen through the keep's underground passage, Alduin has lost track of you. He still knows you exist, but he can't sense you anymore, and he's forced to give up the chase. He doesn't know if Paarthurnax will stay on his mountain or try to interfere, so he leaves to enact his plan without killing you.

[Keltest]

It could also be political. I've long been of the opinion that Alduin's goal was not to destroy the world but to conquer Skyrim. When he attacked Helgen, there were three major political figures present - Ulfric, Tullius and Elenwen. If he'd managed to kill all three of them, it would be much easier for him to take control of the region.

Between Ulfric and Elenwen being killed, that probably would have united Skyrim far more than it would shatter it. Without the Thalmor and Ulfric instigating conflict, the Empire would have a much easier time regaining control.

[The_Jackal]

Caelestion is on point here. It's a Bethesda story, which is to say, it's really a tutorial tacked to a premise, so as to feed the player into the sandbox game they've built. I liken the stories for Skyrim and Fallout 4 to an on-ramp (slip-road for the Brits on the forum). It's not there to be graceful, or appealing, and it doesn't really need to go anywhere, except to convey you into the game.

That's why the Helgen sequence doesn't make narrative sense: Because Alduin's behavior is driven by the functional needs of the game, which is to introduce you to the game's movement mechanics and setting. He's not there for story reasons, but a way to artificially usher the player through the linear tutorial, where you're taught looting, melee combat, spells, lockpicking, and stealth, before you're eventually left to your own devices northeast of Riverwood.

The rest of the main story in similar, it's function is to push the player to different areas of the map. Go to Whiterun. Go to Bleak Falls Barrow. Go to the Greybeards. Go here. Go there. It's also why the finale, from the point where you capture Odahviing, is also a largely linear series of maps. Other sandboxes do this as well, like Shadow of Mordor, for example, where your final confrontation with the Black Hand occurs off the sandbox map, in a specially scripted encounter. Or Arkham City, where your big confrontation with Clayface and Joker ends in another set of linear maps off the regular sandbox.

Now you may argue that those are better games with better stories, but I would stipulate that they all share one characteristic which makes comparisons of their narratives a bit like apples and oranges: You're playing a set character, usually from a previously known setting. Bethesda doesn't make you play their character, they let you play yours. That's problematic from a narrative perspective, because it's hard to write a story that can interface sanely with everyone's idea of what their character should be. Whereas if you're playing Batman, it's a good bet you're on board with beating up the Joker.

[Vinyadan]

I like the idea that, when Alduin reentered the time-flow, Paarthurnax observed it from the mountain and roared a warning to Skyrim that was heard everywhere in the province.

Personally, I do not think that there was a purpose, strictly speaking. A dragon returned like a large predatory bird, heralding many others. For some reason, the devs made this dragon be Alduin, possibly to introduce his name. If Alduin didn't feed on the souls of the dead, I'd assume he was passing by and just wanted a snack. But then, is there any rule that says that Alduin cannot feed on the dead he killed personally? I can imagine him entering Sovengarde to find that everyone is now in the house, he goes "oh, now you've done it!", bolts the door, shouts the clouds, and hurries back to Earth to destroy the first Nord-manned garrison he can find.

[Triaxx]

I mean the interesring thing to me is how much he seems to dislike you and yet never comes for you himself until you're an actual threat, when you enter the time wound at Paarthunax plaza. Of course by then he's made the classic mistake of waiting too long and you're not just a worthy challenge but a true danger.

If you pop out of Blackreach like I did for a breath of fresh air and what passes for sunlight in Skyrim, you can see Alduin Rezzing a dragon near the Inn in the middle of nowhere. I didn't realize it was Alduin, and went to investigate and found myself in the midst of a dragonfight. Which was actually really cool.

[factotum]

All this political stuff is predicated on a couple of assumptions, though:

a) Alduin cares enough about humans to involve himself in their political squabbles.
b) Despite canonically just having popped through a time vortex from thousands of years in the past, he is somehow aware of the political turmoil in Skyrim and knows two of the leaders of it happen to be in Helgen at this time.

I just don't see how either of these fit with the story as told. For them to both be correct, we have to believe Alduin came out of his time hole and then hid for some considerable time, figuring out the politics and what was going on. Only once he had it locked down what was happening did he reveal himself and destroy Helgen. Was that really his best opportunity to "rescue" Ulfric? Especially since he started the fight by dropping a fire storm on Helgen, which is a fairly indiscriminate attack at best. The Alduin who spends months carefully tracking where all the political leaders of Skyrim are really doesn't seem to be the same one who carpet-bombed Helgen, is my thinking.

[Grim Portent]

All this political stuff is predicated on a couple of assumptions, though:

a) Alduin cares enough about humans to involve himself in their political squabbles.
b) Despite canonically just having popped through a time vortex from thousands of years in the past, he is somehow aware of the political turmoil in Skyrim and knows two of the leaders of it happen to be in Helgen at this time.

I just don't see how either of these fit with the story as told. For them to both be correct, we have to believe Alduin came out of his time hole and then hid for some considerable time, figuring out the politics and what was going on. Only once he had it locked down what was happening did he reveal himself and destroy Helgen. Was that really his best opportunity to "rescue" Ulfric? Especially since he started the fight by dropping a fire storm on Helgen, which is a fairly indiscriminate attack at best. The Alduin who spends months carefully tracking where all the political leaders of Skyrim are really doesn't seem to be the same one who carpet-bombed Helgen, is my thinking.

He had all of Skyrim enslaved last time he was around and was banished by mortals. Stands to reason his main goal is to restore the dragons, rebuild the cult that worshipped them and enslave all non-dragons, eventually leading to him destroying the world somehow.

Given that there's a prophecy foretelling his return, he and the other dragons don't entirely follow time as we understand it and he was exiled outside of the normal flow of time he could know just about anything. He's the firstborn son of the god of time, not some random dude, knowing stuff relating to the period of strife in which he's prophecied to return seems well within the bounds of what he should be able to do.

As for why not kill the Dragonborn at Helgen? Two possible reasons*. 1)He's a coward and the dragonborn is the only person who can potentially beat him according to the elder scrolls prophecy. Fighting them at all is something he really doesn't want to do until given no other option. 2) He might not be able to defy the prophecy to attack the dragonborn early. Prophecy gets weird when you start trying to think of how it relates to deific beings like Alduin, Vivec and the other living gods of Morrowind, or even just prophetic beings like several of the Tamriellic emperors. The Emperor in Oblivion solemnly allowed his death because he knew it was destined to happen and part of a greater plan, Alduin may be similarly unable or unwilling to break with prophecy because he percieves things differently from us.

*Though I honestly think he just didn't know the dragonborn was there. A few npcs, like Jarl Balgruuf, assume he was there because of Ulfric in some manner, and given the prophecy relating to the civil war I see little reason to doubt their assumption.

[veti]

Only once he had it locked down what was happening did he reveal himself and destroy Helgen. Was that really his best opportunity to "rescue" Ulfric? Especially since he started the fight by dropping a fire storm on Helgen, which is a fairly indiscriminate attack at best. The Alduin who spends months carefully tracking where all the political leaders of Skyrim are really doesn't seem to be the same one who carpet-bombed Helgen, is my thinking.

The "fire storm" kills precisely nobody, not even civilians. Its goal is to cause panic, not deaths.

You'll note that despite (your companion's) gloomy observation that "looks like we're the only ones that got out", in fact there are a whole lot of survivors from Helgen. Ralof and Hadvar (both), Ulfric, Tullius, Elenwen, Haming... virtually every character namechecked as being in Helgen (except Vilod) eventually turns up elsewhere. If Alduin is simply trying to kill people, you'd think he could do a more thorough job.

[Keltest]

The "fire storm" kills precisely nobody, not even civilians. Its goal is to cause panic, not deaths.

You'll note that despite (your companion's) gloomy observation that "looks like we're the only ones that got out", in fact there are a whole lot of survivors from Helgen. Ralof and Hadvar (both), Ulfric, Tullius, Elenwen, Haming... virtually every character namechecked as being in Helgen (except Vilod) eventually turns up elsewhere. If Alduin is simply trying to kill people, you'd think he could do a more thorough job.

As far as im aware, every civilian in Helgen died except for... Haming? Whatever the kid's name is. If you go back, there are a bunch of burned corpses all over the place. So clearly he killed people

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I'm going to second 'he knew the Dragonborn was there, just not who it was' (as pointed out before, if you stick around too long he figures out it's you and attacks you) and he doesn't attack you enroute to Riverwood because for a stretch your character was underground out of sight and Shout range, and he's got no reason to assume you stopped being underground when he could hit you, being unfamiliar with the terrain changes in the last few thousand years. (Some of those caves and ancient complexes are quite extensive!) So he got frustrated and left, and just happened to miss you in the process.

He then decided to build up his power base by rezzing other dovah instead of hunting down the player out of a combination of arrogance, the usual weird dovah sense of time (what are the couple of months it takes the player to level up to a creature that's immortal? An eyeblink? Less than that?) and of course the fact that he's indestructible even to the Dragonborn unless and until the Dragonborn learns a very specific Shout to strip that away.

And Ulfric, Elenwen and Tulius were all at that place and time because the Aedra arranged for them to be there so they would be among the first to find out about Alduin being back and would have the option to band together to try and stop him. None of them used it, but the opportunity was there.

[LibraryOgre]

I wonder what a dovakhin looks like in the aura sight shout. Like, I could see Alduin using that, and not quite recognizing a dovakhin at first... and maybe thinking Ulfric, with his shouts, looks similar.

[Anteros]

Alduin also has to have some sort of way to sense Dragon souls considering he keeps going around resurrecting the things. It's entirely possible that the Dragonborn's soul attracts him in a similar way.

[Vinyadan]

Is "Why did Alduin destroy Helgen?" the new "Why did the chicken cross the road?"

"Alas, poor Lokir".

[LibraryOgre]

Is "Why did Alduin destroy Helgen?" the new "Why did the chicken cross the road?"

"Alas, poor Lokir".

I once played for a while as a Nord I called Lokir of Rorikstead.