Specialist casters – build challenge

[Waazraath]

Past days, there have been some discussion on the best and worst aspects of 5e. One of the things mentioned (also by myself) was the lack of specialist casters.

To go a bit more in detail on this: 3.5 had specialist full spellcasting classes like the dread necromancer (necromancy, duh - blend of cleric and wiz spells, if I recall well), Beguiler (skill, enchantment, illusion spells) and Warmage (evocation and abjuration). In addition, there were more obscure classes that did the same (e.g. Death Master, also kind of necromancer), a nigh uncountable number of prestige classes that specilized in a certain area (sometimes at the exclusion of other areas), psions and wilders had a small number of not-spells known (wilder 11 over 20 levels I think), and psion's had a specific focus (6 not-schools)

There was much more of this, but anyways: specialization out the box was common (though generalists were also abound). But more than that: the number of spells, feats and prestige classes was so enormous, that any kind of specialist could be build, and (more than) viable from a generalist chasis (like sorcerer or wizard).

Back to 5e. There hardly are specialist casters; even druids, bards and clerics have a wide range of options, let alone wizards and sorcerers. And because of that, and cause its the logical thing to do from an optimization point of view, almost all casters just cover all bases as much as possibe (single target damage, defensive spells, area of effect, buff, debuff, summoning, battlefield control, illusion, versatility goodness like fly/polymorph/invisibility/teleport).


Problematic as this is, in addition to putting the spotlight on the problem, I'd like to help with a solution. So what can be done in 5e, creating specialist casters?

Don't bother to stat out the entire thing from lvl 1-20, if you don't want to bother - a broad outline will do. For me, the most bonus points can be gained when it works with a single class bard, sorcerer or warlock - given their relative small spell list and few spells known it is the most difficult I guess. But any thematic full caster will do, be it with the help of feats, multiclassing, spell selection, backgrounds, or whatever.


To start it:

embermage
- Sorcerer 20, draconic bloodline (fire)
- human variant, feat (1): elemental adept (fire)
- metamagics: empower spell, careful spell (3), ...
- spells: Firebolt, burning hands, dragon breath, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire... you get the drift.

Theme: super bloody basic: burn stuff. Elemental adept helps you from lvl 1 onwards to circumvent resistance to fire, and with some extra damage. With DRaconic bloodline you have a little bit extra staying power (13AC + 1hp/lvl), so defensive spells can be picked a little less; pick a other spells to add a little versatility without disturbing the theme.

spell empowered spy
- Sorcerer 20 (shadow)
- race: changeling (alternative: tiefling variants glaysa & dispater)
- feats: lvl 4 (actor), 18 cha (cause half feat)
- background: criminal or charlatan
- metamagics: subtle spell, twinned spell (3), ...
- spell options: 1: Mage armor, sleep, charm person. 2: enhance ability, misty step, detect thoughts, scorching ray, levitate, spiderclimb, invisibility. 3rd: major image, counterspell, stinking cloud, dispel magic. 4: dimension door, greater invisibility, polymorph. 5: Animate objects, dominate person, skill empowerment 6: disintegrate, mass suggestion 7: finger of death, reverse gravity 8: dominate mosnter, Power word stun 9: wish,

Theme: infiltrater / assassin. with changeling, the build has 6 skills, probably all relevant cha + stealth. Spells empower skill (enhance ability, skill empowerment, invisibility), work well in social situations with subtle (illusions, charm, dominate, detect thoughts). Damage spells are either also picked to work with subtle (animate objects without knowning that anybody cast a spell :)), or work single target with rays (to take advantage of the auto-advantage of Shadow sorcerer when casting from darkness) or that get a saving throw (with the auto-disadvantage of the dog). Nothing flashy, in any case, to stick with the theme. And yeah, there are more spells here than the sorcerer knows, so it still needs a selection based on the specific adventure and other party members. Some spells are also logical to switch out later (sleep, misty step after getting teleport).

Stormcaller
Class: tempest cleric 2 / storm sorcerer 18
Race: half-elf
Feat: later elemental affinity (lightning)
metamagic (lvl 5): subtle, quickened
Spells: booming blade, thunderwave, shatter, lighting bolt, chain lighting

Theme: gishy sorcerer that uses thunder & lighting spells, with the thunder & lighting subclass and 2 levels thunder & lightning cleric. This is an older build from here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ild-compendium

(full version behind spoiler)

Spoiler: spoiler

Show

Description: Stormcaller

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Tempest cleric 2 / storm sorcerer 18
Ability scores lvl 1 (incl. racial modifiers): str 14 +1, dex 10, con 13, int 10, wis 13 + 1, cha 14+2
ASI / feats: 6: +1 str + 1 con; 10: elemental adept (lightning); 14 +2 cha for 18: 18: +2 cha for 20
Summary: Walk around in full plate. Have a few direct damage spell options that are more damaging than what an evoker of equal level can throw. For the rest, pick the role that fits the situation best, whether it’s buffer, healer, or secondary melee fighter.

Cantrip must haves - Cleric: Guidance, Spare the dying; Sorcerer: Booming Blade

First tier (1-4)
The first two levels, Stormcaller plays as a standard, melee oriented Tempest Cleric. It’s primarily a support caster, who helps the party with spells like bless and healing word. With AC 18, the option to cast shield of faith for AC 20, he can wade into melee when needed. He should keep his shield ready, but make sure he doesn’t draw a weapon before walking into the fray, to keep a hand free for casting. Draw a weapon when needed.

In melee, he has a useful reaction (Wrath of the Storm, 2d8, save for half) when hit. At level 2, Channel Divinity gives maximum damage on a thunder or lighting damage roll; that could be used for Thunderwave, hitting a number of foes for 16 damage (save for half). Later, with stronger spells, this will get really powerful. Since it recharges on a short rest, you should be able to use it several times per day.

At level 3: enter Storm Sorcerer. A must is the cantrip Booming Blade. The spell Shield can be nice, if he often finds himself attacked before drawing a weapon. But its no must, since AC is good to begin with. Since there are 2nd level spell slots available, he can cast a few times / day a maximized thunderwave for 24 damage, save for half. Tempestuous Magic is nice: take a free 10 ft fly before or after casting a spell of 1st level or higher; this can give nice combo’s with Booming Blade, later, and is an easy way to disengage from melee combat if needed.

Level 4 gives metamagic. Subtle works great of you’ve taken the Shield spell, since you can cast it now even when both your hands are full. Quickened will be good once you’ve got a few more sorcery points, since you can quicken Booming Blade. Nice combo with Hold Person (later: Hold Monster) to cast Hold as an action, and quicken a booming blade; an auto-crit, with at later levels the extra dice from BB, is not half bad as an extra.

Second tier (5-10)
Ah, level 5, the level that supposed to suck for the multiclassers. Not for this baby. You get second level spells, which is in any case Shatter, and third level spell slots. Yes, that is a maximized 32 damage ranged area effect sell you’re looking at; you don’t get Fireball at level 5, but something that is even more damaging (with a smaller area of effect, but a less often resisted damage type). You need to take a short rest between every use though.

This gets better at level 7, when you get your 3rd level sorcery spells. A maximized Lightning Bolt in a 4th level spell slot for 54 damage? Yes please! Thunder step combines damage with extra mobility. The feat Elemental adept (lightning) takes care of resistance, from level 10 onward.

At level 8, Stormcaller deals extra damage (half sorcerer level) with Heart of the Storm, to foes in 10 ft, when casting 1st level or higher spell that does lighting or thunder damage. Move up to some foes, quicken a booming blade, cast Thunderwave, do some extra damage with Heart of the Storm, take the free disengage (10 ft fly) from Tempestous magic. If opponent walks to you to hit, damage from Booming Blade kicks in. Yay.

Third tier (11-16)
The levels of the big bang. Chain lightning, level 6 spell, castable from level 13, in a lvl 7 slot, for max 5 targets that get 80 maximum damage (with channel divinity) for 400 damage. BOOM!
At level 12 Stormcaller gets a new metamagic. Just pick whatever is needed, matches well with your spells, and the needs of your party (an example of spells / metamegic combo’s is at the bottom of this post). At level 16, Storm’s Fury hinders and damages anybody hitting you in melee: damage equal to sorcerer level, and save or be pushed back 20 ft.

Fourth tier (17-20)
Starting with an 8th level spell, and the level after that the ASI that raises charisma to 20. And then: hell yeah. Wish, at level 19, for huge increase in versatility. Cast it as any spell needed. Use it in downtime to get a familiar and a Greater Steed. Alter reality! The last metamagic at this level is just gravy.
The ‘capstone’ at 20 is Wind Soul: immunity to lighting, thunder, and gain permanent fly speed. That when needed you even can share with others. There are worse (real) capstones.

Conclusion & variants

The stormcaller is a Very Useful Addition To Any Party. He’s an emergency healer, when somebody goes down he can get ‘em up. He’s a decent buffer, with Bless and Guidance early on, further depending on spells and metamagic chosen. The sorcerer doesn’t grant many spells known, so at later levels, it’s a bit of a choice whether to focus on utility, summoning, battle field control, or debuffing enemies.

This build has top defence and offense. It’s a full caster, running around in full plate plus shield. With spells like Shield, Greater Invisibility, Absorb elements, and (optionally) misty step or something to escape dangerous situations.

Its action economy is great. You have a several bonus actions (quicken spell, Healing Word) and reactions (Wrath of the Storm, Shield, Storm’s Fury, Absorb Elements) to choose from, many you get at the early levels. Twin (if you take it) is always great for the action economy as well.

Mobility is improved by the class features Tempestuous magic (we get it at lvl 3) and Wind Soul (permanent fly) as our capstone at 20. Of course, it can be improved by selecting the right spells. Spells like Misty Step, Fly, Far Step, Dimension Door and Teleport are always nice options. For this build, Thunder Step is almost a must, as it does both Thunder Damage and provides a teleport effect.

I didn’t fill in all spell choices per level, since the build can fulfil its intended roles (direct damage Area of Effect blaster; secondary melee/tank; emergency healer) even without picking all available spells and metamagicks. But to avoid Schrödingers Sorcerer, here an example of spell picks of different levels that allow Stormcaller to fulfill a number of roles:

Offense: Shatter (2), Lightning Bolt (3), Chain Lightning (6), Telekinesis (5), Dominate Monster (8), hold person (2),
Defense: Shield (1), Absorb Elements (1); Improved invisibility (4 – also has utility and offensive purposes)
Mobility: Thunder Step (3)
Utility: Wish (9), Major Image (3), charm person (1), Plane Shift (also offense - 7), Skill Empowerment (5)
Metamagicks: Subtle, Quickened (5), empower (12), twin (19)

Some combo’s:
- Hold + quickened BB
- Subtle + shield (with hands full)
- Telekinesis + quickened spell
- Subtle + charm / illusion in social situations
- Twin + hold / dominate / plane shift
- Quicken BB + any spell of level 1 or higher + heart of the storm + tempestuous magic

Don’t forget: the build also knows all Cleric level 1 spells. Together with these spells known and these metamagic, Stormcaller not only is great blaster / decent secondary tank, it also has great mobility, is great in social situations where subtle charms/illusions/dominiates can be utilized, has great skill (and can buff skills of party members) with guidance / skill empowerment.

[MrStabby]

So off the top of my head, the options that enhance some subset of spells are:

Bard - anything that needs an ability check or an opposed skill check

Cleric - order cleric can cast some enchantment as a bonus action, extra value from buff spells

Trickery cleric can get easy advantage on attack roll spells.

Death cleric gets a situational buff on necrotic damage and can power up melee attack spells.

Tempest cleric can empower lightning spells and can move people about with lightning damage.

Life cleric buffs healing spells

Shepherd druid can buff summons

Eldritch knight fighter buffs spells that require saves

Conquest paladin can buff fear spells

Draconic Sorcerer buffs elemental damage saves

Wild sorcerer can buff spells that need a save, same for shadow.

Storm buffs lightning spells.

Celestial Warlock buffs fire/radiant spells

Fiend pact buffs skill based spells

Hexblade buffs spells that have a damage roll

Wizards that buff their spell schools are... all of them but bladesinger. War wizard buffs abjuration.

[Pex]

Nitpick: You have to Quicken Hold Person then as your Action cast Booming Blade. You don't lose anything, but that's the rule. Your Action spell must be a Cantrip if you Bonus Action any spell.

[Waazraath]

Pex: thanks for the nitpick, missed that.

MrStabby: thnx for the list. It's helpful to know what classes can be good at certain themes. My goal is 1 step further though: not only being good at a certain theme, but only or mostly sticking to that theme. Else you just get a life cleric that is a little better in healing, but just as good as other clerics in a dozen of other stuff (which in practice, will still have him or her doing all those other stuff, and not sticking to a theme). That's why I think thematic casters are harder to pull off with druids, clerics and wizards: they know so many spells, there is no reason not to go outside the theme. Sorcerers etc. at least have opportunity costs (spells known).

[Bobthewizard]

For your spy build, I'd add suggestion, modify memory, and magic jar.

Here's my submission

I made these to be goblin sappers using UA stone sorcerer and conjuration wizard

C-mold earth, firebolt, create bonfire
1- fog cloud, shield, absorb elements, thunderwave
2- shatter, web (fluffed as mud), enlarge/reduce, knock
3- erupting earth, fireball, thunderstep, meld into stone (druid)
4- conjure minor elementals, stone shape, stoneskin
5- conjure elemental, wall of stone, transmute rock, cloudkill, passwall
6- flesh to stone, disintegrate
7- firestorm
8- earthquake, maze, incendiary cloud
9- meteor swarm

[MrStabby]

Pex: thanks for the nitpick, missed that.

MrStabby: thnx for the list. It's helpful to know what classes can be good at certain themes. My goal is 1 step further though: not only being good at a certain theme, but only or mostly sticking to that theme. Else you just get a life cleric that is a little better in healing, but just as good as other clerics in a dozen of other stuff (which in practice, will still have him or her doing all those other stuff, and not sticking to a theme). That's why I think thematic casters are harder to pull off with druids, clerics and wizards: they know so many spells, there is no reason not to go outside the theme. Sorcerers etc. at least have opportunity costs (spells known).

Yes, sorry - I was a bit time pressured so just trying to throw out what the building blocks might be.

So trying to form a germ of an idea...

Conquest Paladin to 7, throw in some sorcerer for quickened bane, or bend luck or hound of ill omen to use with your channel divinity? Try and get the most from those fear saves? Or maybe a lore bard to add a penalty to the skill check to recover from wrathful smite?

[Waazraath]

Thanx Bobthewizard.

For the rest: nothing? Nobody else? Did wizards truely killed specialist casters this hard in 5e?

[ZRN]

Thanx Bobthewizard.

For the rest: nothing? Nobody else? Did wizards truely killed specialist casters this hard in 5e?

Two main problems:

1. It's impossible to make a specialist wizard, cleric, or druid in 5e because they'll still have access to a whole bunch of spells outside their specialty. (EDIT: I re-read the thread more carefully and you clearly agree!)
2. With bards and sorcerers, you can intentionally restrict the spells you choose to create a sort of specialization, but you're generally just limiting yourself at that point more than you're gaining extra synergies. So you can definitely get a fun and viable and unique character to play, but the mechanical character-building aspect might not be especially interesting - e.g. "I'm going to play an illusionist bard by picking a bunch of illusion spells!"

[Waazraath]

Two main problems:

1. It's impossible to make a specialist wizard, cleric, or druid in 5e because they'll still have access to a whole bunch of spells outside their specialty. (EDIT: I re-read the thread more carefully and you clearly agree!)
2. With bards and sorcerers, you can intentionally restrict the spells you choose to create a sort of specialization, but you're generally just limiting yourself at that point more than you're gaining extra synergies. So you can definitely get a fun and viable and unique character to play, but the mechanical character-building aspect might not be especially interesting - e.g. "I'm going to play an illusionist bard by picking a bunch of illusion spells!"

Oh, in general I agree with what you state here.

But! The challenge is of course to 1) limit yourself in your build / spell selection, while 2) still keeping a viable character mechanically (next to fluffy). To take the examples I posted: The fire sorcerer is a fine damage dealer, that has AOA, single target, and some BFC (wall of fire), that all work as long as creatures aren't straight up immune to fire (cause the Elemental Adept feat). The sorcerer infiltrant has loads of options, both social and in combat, but locked to the theme. Same for the thunder/lightning build: at least as long as there are the relevant rescources, that's the best thing to do.

I'm pretty sure there are dozens more possibilities if the hivemind puts some effort in it. For me, that's the fun part of optimizing: there's a goal, but it difficult to reach, and it's not just "maximum damage".

[Corran]

Just to throw some rough ideas (that hopefully someone will be interested to expand on):

1) Focus on spells that predict things and/or let you know stuff. So spells like augury, divination, legend lore, etc.

2) Focus on spells that are used to guard a location (so you could be the guy that the a rich merchant calls on to secure the vault). So spells like alarm, glyph of warding, guards and wards, etc.

[cZak]

Previously, Specialists had restrictions; banned schools

5e kind of went the other way where everybody is a generalist, but they get tricks in a special area; Enchanter, Abjurer, etc...

I guess a Specialist might be a Levistus tiefling fighter with Heavy armor master
They get to lay down the Smacks like other fighters, but if you hit them you get hit back

[WaroftheCrans]

Might be a fun exercise to think of a favorite character you have, and then try to build that character in DnD. Most characters outside of DnD aren't jacks of all trades, so there should be some pretty good specialist builds awaiting you.

[SLOTHRPG95]

"White Mage" VHuman Divine Soul Sorcerer
Starting stats (point buy): Str 8 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 9 Wis 13 Cha 14
Feats/ASIs: Ritual Caster (Cleric; Purify Food/Drink, Detect Poison/Disease), Cha +2 x3, Resilient (Wis), Healer
Metamagic: Twinned Spell, Extended Spell, Distant Spell, Quickened Spell
Cantrips: guidance, light, mending, spare the dying, sacred flame, resistance
1st: cure wounds, bless, mage armor, protection from evil and good
2nd: aid, enhance ability
3rd: haste, revivify
4th: banishment, death ward
5th: mass cure wounds, raise dead (swap for resurrection at 13th)
6th: heal
7th: regenerate, resurrection (swap for true resurrection at 17th)
8th: holy aura
9th: true resurrection, mass heal

This is a pretty standard healer/buffer, with only one direct-damage spell (sacred flame) which could be switched out if you think even that is too much and you prefer absolutely zero damage-dealing capabilities. However, the ability to twin spells (including haste) is really the only reason to play this over a Life Cleric, as the latter gets everything else and more (lesser/greater restoration, dispel magic, remove curse, etc.), since they're not limited by spells known.

Lore Bard could also imitate this role moderately well, via a combination of core Bard spells (healing word, heroism, calm emotions, etc.), Magical Secrets (prayer of healing, revivify, etc.), Bardic Inspiration, and Song of Rest. You could even double down on the short-rest healing by going Glamour Bard instead, taking both Healer and Inspiring Leader as feats, and starting with proficiency in cook's utensils* via background. Or, again, you could just play a Life Cleric and only cast healing/buffing spells, but you'd be losing out on uber-face abilities and other bits of skill-monkey fun.

*assuming you're following the expanded tool use rules in Xanathar's Guide to Everything

[Bobthewizard]

Oh, I have another one I forgot about. Triton Storm Sorcerer. Make her a young woman and name her Elsa.

Triton Storm Sorcerer

C – ray of frost, frostbite, shape water, thunderclap, booming blade
1 – ice knife, thunderwave, shield, absorb elements, fog cloud
2 – shatter, misty step, gust of wind
3 – lightning bolt, sleet storm, wall of water, thunderstep
4 – ice storm, watery sphere
5 – cone of cold
6 – investiture of ice
7 – whirlwind
8 – ?
9 – wish

[clash]

You forgot to take animate objects spell, for when you need a snowman friend or bodyguard.

[WaroftheCrans]

Dominate monster for Elsa's 8th level spell. She did have some snowman thralls, perhaps a reflavored animate dead could work. Demiplane is the other 8th level option for her.

[KorvinStarmast]

One of the things mentioned (also by myself) was the lack of specialist casters.

There are nine schools in the wizard class. How is that not specialization?

The game goes from level 1 to 20. Any caster can choose to specialize by their spell selection.

I don't think there's a problem to solve here. I think ZRN made a nice post.
But beyond that, are you looking to increase the number of schools of magic?

[ftafp]

The Master of Many Forms
Race: Changeling (+1 wis)
Class: Moon Druid X
Background: Simic Scientist (Note: if your DM bans this, change class to Moon Druid 17/Stone or Dragon Sorcerer 3)
Spells: Alter Self, Enlarge/Reduce, Shapechange

The concept is pretty simple. As a changeling, you maintain the ability to change form while wild shaped, and as a changeling's ability only requires that you maintain the same number of limbs in the same arrangement and the same size category, the sky is the limit. Want to play Gazebo Jones in 5e? Wildshape into a bear and then shapeshift into a king-sized bed. Want to be a wyvern? Raptor is what you need.

Alter self and enlarge/reduce grant you added flexibility, allowing you to change your size category, tack on other limbs, or breathe underwater. By the time you acquire shapechange, you likely won't even need it to take on 90% of forms, all it will do is make the new form more deadly

The Smokemancer
Race: Fierna Tiefling
Class: Shadow Smoke Sorcerer X/Wildfire Druid 2(optional)
Spells: Anything involving Fire, Clouds, Enchantment or Illusion
Feats: Elemental Adept (Fire)

Once again, pretty basic. Shadow sorcerer abilities are easy to refluff as smoke-themed and as heavily obscured areas are pretty much guarrenteed to be dark you can use your shadow teleportation as well. Wildfire 2 isn't much but it gives you a wildfire spirit that can teleport in flames. The real trick to the versatility comes the enchantment and illusion spells (or as I like to call them, smoke and mirrors). Smoke can be narcotic as well as suffocating, so keeping an ability to beguile is well within the theme

[Waazraath]

Kudo's for Elsa, the Master of Many Forms and the smokemancer. Thematic, and nice :)

There are nine schools in the wizard class. How is that not specialization?

The game goes from level 1 to 20. Any caster can choose to specialize by their spell selection.

I don't think there's a problem to solve here. I think ZRN made a nice post.
But beyond that, are you looking to increase the number of schools of magic?

I'm not sure if I'm able to explain better then I already did, so I'll quote MrStabby from another post:

If you want to play a fire themed sorcerer with fire themed spells then sooner or later you are going to have to sit out encounters that you cant contribute to. If you build an enchantment themed bard then you will find the same. Great themes, potentially great characters, but the cost for sticking to theme rather than taking an optimally diverse set of abilities is too damn high.

...

You cannot invest to make your character the best at the things you think it should be the best at. After a while all wizards/sorcerers/hexbladez start to feel the same as the same set of spells is always the best for all characters in that class with only a small handful changing.

See here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=252

So no, I don't want more specializations, my problem is that 'specialization' has very little impact. Both the enchanter and necromancer and evoker all will know invisibility, counterspell, and polymorph (defining spells for illusion, abujuration and transmutation schools). The subclass offers some minor abilities, and aren't defining. This is maybe even worse for the classes that only know a few spells, because with very few spells known, few players choose to pick that flavorfull level 3 spell that goes well with the theme if that means they don't get to known Fireball or Fly.

Of course, if this is a problem is a question of opinion. But I've seen this comment plenty of times on this forum. And earlier editions had ways to cope with this: I already mentioned some stuff in my OP, but also, specificly regarding wizards schools that you mention, there were opposing schools.

I feel all in all 5e handles this quite badly (though I love the edition).

[MrStabby]

"White Mage" VHuman Divine Soul Sorcerer
Starting stats (point buy): Str 8 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 9 Wis 13 Cha 14
Feats/ASIs: Ritual Caster (Cleric; Purify Food/Drink, Detect Poison/Disease), Cha +2 x3, Resilient (Wis), Healer
Metamagic: Twinned Spell, Extended Spell, Distant Spell, Quickened Spell
Cantrips: guidance, light, mending, spare the dying, sacred flame, resistance
1st: cure wounds, bless, mage armor, protection from evil and good
2nd: aid, enhance ability
3rd: haste, revivify
4th: banishment, death ward
5th: mass cure wounds, raise dead (swap for resurrection at 13th)
6th: heal
7th: regenerate, resurrection (swap for true resurrection at 17th)
8th: holy aura
9th: true resurrection, mass heal

This is a pretty standard healer/buffer, with only one direct-damage spell (sacred flame) which could be switched out if you think even that is too much and you prefer absolutely zero damage-dealing capabilities. However, the ability to twin spells (including haste) is really the only reason to play this over a Life Cleric, as the latter gets everything else and more (lesser/greater restoration, dispel magic, remove curse, etc.), since they're not limited by spells known.

Lore Bard could also imitate this role moderately well, via a combination of core Bard spells (healing word, heroism, calm emotions, etc.), Magical Secrets (prayer of healing, revivify, etc.), Bardic Inspiration, and Song of Rest. You could even double down on the short-rest healing by going Glamour Bard instead, taking both Healer and Inspiring Leader as feats, and starting with proficiency in cook's utensils* via background. Or, again, you could just play a Life Cleric and only cast healing/buffing spells, but you'd be losing out on uber-face abilities and other bits of skill-monkey fun.

*assuming you're following the expanded tool use rules in Xanathar's Guide to Everything

So I would use the above as an example of what I think the problem is. It's a great build and potentially really fun and very thematic... but the benefits of breaking specialisation and theme seem to far outweigh the costs. For example is death ward worth not having something like polymorph?

But to me the bigger issue, or possibly the same issue from a different perspective, is that you are rarely sufficiently rewarded by being in your theme relative to another caster casting that spell. In the above example you are focussed on protection; why are other casters that pick up spells like protection from evil and good able to do this just as well as you on your theme.

For all its faults this was something I liked about 3rd edition. Prohibited schools put a benefit to not being able to do everything. Cleric domains that let you cast spells from lower spell slots than otherwise that reflected your theme were really good. I wish such tools existed in 5th, instead we have a bit of a soup of everyone doing everything. Or at least a lot of people doing most things.

[Waazraath]

So I would use the above as an example of what I think the problem is. It's a great build and potentially really fun and very thematic... but the benefits of breaking specialisation and theme seem to far outweigh the costs. For example is death ward worth not having something like polymorph?

But to me the bigger issue, or possibly the same issue from a different perspective, is that you are rarely sufficiently rewarded by being in your theme relative to another caster casting that spell. In the above example you are focussed on protection; why are other casters that pick up spells like protection from evil and good able to do this just as well as you on your theme.

For all its faults this was something I liked about 3rd edition. Prohibited schools put a benefit to not being able to do everything. Cleric domains that let you cast spells from lower spell slots than otherwise that reflected your theme were really good. I wish such tools existed in 5th, instead we have a bit of a soup of everyone doing everything. Or at least a lot of people doing most things.

Though I fully agree on the contents of what you are saying, I don't think 'death ward for polymorph' is a good example here. This white mage (or more specific: any Divine Soul, but here it fits the theme great) can extend Cleric buff spells that are no-concentration and have an 8 hour duration: Death Ward and Aid. That's great, cause doing so before the long rest makes sure you have the buffs on for the first 8 hours of your adventuring day - free, without slots! And if your DM allows casting just before finishing a long rest, you can have them online for 16 hours, no slot cost. That's better than having polymorph, and the protection spells fit the White Mage theme.

[jas61292]

For all its faults this was something I liked about 3rd edition. Prohibited schools put a benefit to not being able to do everything. Cleric domains that let you cast spells from lower spell slots than otherwise that reflected your theme were really good. I wish such tools existed in 5th, instead we have a bit of a soup of everyone doing everything. Or at least a lot of people doing most things.

While I strongly agree that 3rd edition did specialists better, I kinda disagree with the examples. Yes, prohibited schools and Cleric domains allowed a level of specialization, but Wizards and Clerics were largely considered broken because, regardless of any of that, they could still cast 90% of everything to do whatever they wanted. I think the best template for specialization from 3e were the few classes in 3.5 books like the beguiler and war mage that were entire casting classes that had a specialization and focus. It wasn't just "you can be better at a focus while still being a ridiculous generalist." It was that you are not a generalist. You are a specialist. But it made the specialization wide enough that you still had plenty you could do, and actually gave cool features on top of that.

I wish that was the model 5e had decided to follow, but the fact is, generalist casters are the norm in D&D, and especially 5e. The fact that they are very rarely a thing in most other fantasy is what makes that frustrating. There are so many cool concepts, but so long as the D&D model is based around general classes being able to do it all, they will almost always be sub-optimal, because without giving incredible boosts, specialization will never be as good as simply being able to take the best of everything. You can certainly specialize, but until the Wizard (and maybe a few other classes) are killed off in the name of balance, it will never really be a good option.

[Dork_Forge]

If the goal here is to make a specialist (something full casters inherently aren't becuase of the access to their whole lists) then I guess the obvious thing to do would be to go for a third caster instead. Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights are inherently limited to certain schools for the most part, nothing specific in mind here but surely if you just leant into that (ATs with enchantment/illusion backed with expertise, EKs Abjuration/Evocation backed up by picking up Magic Initiate with a bonus ASI).

[SLOTHRPG95]

So I would use the above as an example of what I think the problem is. It's a great build and potentially really fun and very thematic... but the benefits of breaking specialisation and theme seem to far outweigh the costs. For example is death ward worth not having something like polymorph?

But to me the bigger issue, or possibly the same issue from a different perspective, is that you are rarely sufficiently rewarded by being in your theme relative to another caster casting that spell. In the above example you are focussed on protection; why are other casters that pick up spells like protection from evil and good able to do this just as well as you on your theme.

For all its faults this was something I liked about 3rd edition. Prohibited schools put a benefit to not being able to do everything. Cleric domains that let you cast spells from lower spell slots than otherwise that reflected your theme were really good. I wish such tools existed in 5th, instead we have a bit of a soup of everyone doing everything. Or at least a lot of people doing most things.

Death Ward is not concentration, and Polymorph is. I'm not saying that the latter isn't a great and extremely flexible spell, but if I'm already playing a character whose go-to strategy in a fight is to open with twinned Haste or the like, then I'm going to like Polymorph a lot less. Death Ward is also more DM- and party-agnostic. The former since the whole "mental ability scores of adopted form" plus "limited to actions it can perform by nature of its new form" can be interpreted by some DMs in less-than-pleasant ways. The latter since it's quite possible that your party Elf Ranger decided to play an Elf Ranger because they wanted to fight like an Elf Ranger w/ two swords, and not like a dinosaur. So yes Polymorph is a juicy pick, but I could totally see picking Death Ward instead and staying in theme.

As to why other casters aren't preparing Protection from E/G etc. instead, maybe there isn't a Cleric/Paladin/Wizard in the party. Even if there is one, I'm not sure they can do it "just as well" since they can't twin it so both the Fighter and the Barbarian are covered. I see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's totally cut-and-dry.

With that said, I do generally prefer how 3e/3.5 handled specialists. In that edition, if I wanted to be The Best Evoker, I could play a Focused Specialist Evoker and go Red Wizard* and hence sacrifice four whole schools of magic to better my blasting. That's a real cost, compared to 5e's "I don't get the goodies of another subclass" opportunity cost of playing an Evoker. And even if you're looking purely at opportunity cost, then the amount of feats that you might sink in to improve your blasting (Spell Focus, Imp. Spell Focus, Tattoo Focus, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Energy Substitution, etc.) was a much greater opportunity cost than subclass features currently are. You could decide in 5e that you have certain barred/opposition schools from which you don't pick any spells known, but if you find them on a scroll and don't copy them down, you're not so much specializing as you are purposefully gimping yourself. That's one of the main reasons I used a Divine Soul instead of a Theurgy (Life) Wizard in my example. When a Sorcerer doesn't pick a certain spell, they're not trading something for nothing, they're still getting a (different) spell known.

*I am not claiming that this actually results in the most optimal evoker in 3rd edition, or that blasting itself is really optimal in that edition. It's just a convenient and simple example.

[Waazraath]

If the goal here is to make a specialist (something full casters inherently aren't becuase of the access to their whole lists) then I guess the obvious thing to do would be to go for a third caster instead. Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights are inherently limited to certain schools for the most part, nothing specific in mind here but surely if you just leant into that (ATs with enchantment/illusion backed with expertise, EKs Abjuration/Evocation backed up by picking up Magic Initiate with a bonus ASI).

But a 1/3rd caster will never be a specialist CASTER. As for the bolded part, that might be true for Druids, Clerics and (to some extend) Wizards, but not for Bards/Sorcerers/Warlocks. Making a specialist out of them is definitely possible, as builds so far have shown. The others are more difficult, but who knowns what might come up, with the right build? (see Master of Many Forms build for example).

[Dork_Forge]

But a 1/3rd caster will never be a specialist CASTER. As for the bolded part, that might be true for Druids, Clerics and (to some extend) Wizards, but not for Bards/Sorcerers/Warlocks. Making a specialist out of them is definitely possible, as builds so far have shown. The others are more difficult, but who knowns what might come up, with the right build? (see Master of Many Forms build for example).

With any caster you can decide to limit yourself to certain spells to achieve a specialist effect, that however is not the tone I got from the thread. The only casters that have an actual restriction on the spells they can take is the AT and EK, which is why I put them forwards (and whilst they may be 1/3 casters, they most are basically specialist casters by definition, regardless their overall class chassis). If your view on it is just choosing to use specific things then you can do that with pretty much any caster and just choosing to not to use anything else, your example of Master of Many Forms springs to mind. That isn't really much of a specialist caster at all, it's a racial trait mixed with enhanced Wild Shape and a few spells. Most of your spells will be unrelated to your schtick, and your schtick is primarily derived from non spell abiltiies.

[NorthernPhoenix]

So I would use the above as an example of what I think the problem is. It's a great build and potentially really fun and very thematic... but the benefits of breaking specialisation and theme seem to far outweigh the costs. For example is death ward worth not having something like polymorph?

But to me the bigger issue, or possibly the same issue from a different perspective, is that you are rarely sufficiently rewarded by being in your theme relative to another caster casting that spell. In the above example you are focussed on protection; why are other casters that pick up spells like protection from evil and good able to do this just as well as you on your theme.

For all its faults this was something I liked about 3rd edition. Prohibited schools put a benefit to not being able to do everything. Cleric domains that let you cast spells from lower spell slots than otherwise that reflected your theme were really good. I wish such tools existed in 5th, instead we have a bit of a soup of everyone doing everything. Or at least a lot of people doing most things.

I think that's missing the point. I agree that the game doesn't encourage specialization enough, and rewards "do anything" casters too much. But realizing that, the point of the thread is to create builds that are self-restrained enough through specialization to be less powerful than the optimal god-caster while still being decent enough to be fun in actual play. A build like the "white mage" may not be "optimal", but it certainly isn't so bad it's not contributing more than enough to the average 5e game.

[Bobthewizard]

I thought of another one. Jedi Knight as an enchantment wizard. For Hypnotic Gaze, hold your hand out like Darth Vader and the target feels like they are choking. Then choose some of the following spells. Perhaps add a Monk dip for the lightsaber fighting once you find a sunsword.

Cantrips - Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Message , Mending, Friends
1 Charm Person, Sleep
2 Suggestion, Detect Thoughts, Levitate, Misty Step, Hold Person, See Invisibility
3 Fear, Counterspell, Fly, Sending, Clairvoyance
4 Dimension Door, Otiluke’s Sphere, Banishment, Arcane Eye
5 Charm Monster, Dominate Person, Telekinesis, Animate Objects, Wall of Force, Synaptic Static, Hold Monster, Scrying, Modify Memory, Rary’s Telepathic bond
6 Mass Suggestion, True Seeing
7 Plane Shift, Forcecage
8 Feeblemind, Dominate Monster
9 Foresight, Astral Projection

[Waazraath]

The black/white mage

The easiest way to describe this concept is using Magic The Gathering terminology, I think. It’s a character that walks the edge between the light and the dark, that heals and cures, but also uses forbidden and deadly magics, for Ends that Justify Means (but do they?). Something inspired by Spawn, or fallen angels still trying to do good, that kind of stuff.
Best races are probably (fallen) Aasimar or Tieflings, obviously. Classes the ones associated often with ‘good’ or ‘evil’ as well: warlock, or including half casters, paladin.

Let’s try one.

Lilian Oathsworn was destined to become a paladin. She served as the squire of Willam Brightheart, who looked at the tiefling (Zariel’s breed) and didn’t see her horns or tail, but the kindness of her soul. She was a very promising student, but just before she would swear her oath of devotion, to all that was good and true, disaster struck. A terrible power from the Far Realm brought Brightheart to an excruciating painful end, and left Lilian bewildered, and angry… so very angry. So she did swear an oath, not to devotion, but to an Angel of Vengeance, that she would use every power in the multiverse, no matter how foul, in her fight against the beings from the far realm, and became Lilian Darkoath.

So we have:
Class: paladin 2 / warlock (celestial) 17 / paladin +1
Asi’s/feats: just raise cha + str
Pact: chain
Invocations: mask of many forms, fiendish vigor (trade for chain master at lvl 3), cloak of flies, shostly gaze, devils sight, tomb of levistus, visions of distant realms.
Spells (warlock):
cantrips:Green Flame Blade (must), further open.
1) hellish rebuke, armor of agathys, protection from good/evil
2) lesser restoration, darkness
3) summon lesser demon, counterspell
4) summon greater demon, wall of fire
5) greater restoration, wall of light
6) eyebite
7) finger of death OR crown of stars (leaning towards good or evil here?)
8) Glibness
9) True polymorph

Combo’s:
- attack routine: GFB + searing smite + halo of flies + str + cha (gfb) + cha (searing smite) ; +cha ( halo of flies ; + with a secondary target xd8 + cha + cha; invisible familiar for easy advantage
- summon demon + [see through wall] invocation; no line of effect needed, just look through a wall and put some demons in a chamber.

Theme: pretty obvious by now. Uses both healing and restoration, as burn it with fire and summon demons. The final touch is level 20: at the end of the campaign, depending on how things played out, you can choose either redemption, damnation or the narrow path in between (by either picking devotion, oathbreaker, or vengeance for the paladin oath that is sworn at last).

All in all, it’s a pretty well-rounded build, with ability to heal, damage in melee, lots of social skills and options, summoning, healing, battlefield control, etc; and that with almost all spell picks in the theme.

Of course, the backstory (and then probably spells) can be refitted to any major opponent/villain in the campaign. Furthermore, this also works with for example fallen aasimar and Hex warlock, and with every pact (blade for direct melee, extra attack and melee invocations - maybe tripple smites, tome for shillelagh to be SAD without Hexblade).

[Ogre Mage]

Mind Mage / Puppet Master -- a mysterious figure manipulating others from the shadows
Class: shadow sorcerer 20
Race: kalashtar
metamagic: subtle spell, twinned spell, heightened spell.
Spells: friends, charm person, detect thoughts, hold person, invisibility, mind spike, suggestion, enemies abound, hypnotic pattern, dominate person, hold monster, synaptic static, mass suggestion, mental prison, dominate monster.