OOTS #1201 - The Discussion Thread

[Emanick]

Oh boy, if only they had someone who could cast Sending. An elven Cleric maybe. Or a dwarven Wizard. Something like that.

Sure, but if some combination of Elan, Haley, and/or Belkar (which is not crazy - they probably have the highest Reflex save bonuses) survive, there could be a real problem. Maybe Haley will wind up having a wand of Sending, or maybe Elan will level up and take Sending as a new spell (do bards get that?), but a scenario where the survivor(s) of a fierce climactic battle are stranded with no access to Sending or similar magic is definitely plausible (even if, narratively speaking, it’s highly unlikely).

Which is not to say that Roy is making a poor decision. Protecting the Mechane’s crew from possible assaults from Team Evil is noble, and it’s worth doing. It’s just not exactly risk-free.

[Fyraltari]

Sure, but if some combination of Elan, Haley, and/or Belkar (which is not crazy - they probably have the highest Reflex save bonuses) survive, there could be a real problem. Maybe Haley will wind up having a wand of Sending, or maybe Elan will level up and take Sending as a new spell (do bards get that?), but a scenario where the survivor(s) of a fierce climactic battle are stranded with no access to Sending or similar magic is definitely plausible (even if, narratively speaking, it’s highly unlikely).

Which is not to say that Roy is making a poor decision. Protecting the Mechane’s crew from possible assaults from Team Evil is noble, and it’s worth doing. It’s just not exactly risk-free.

[Rogar Demonblud]

On topic: there is a slight flaw with Roy's plans - if he's killed, but they defeat Xykon.

Null hypothesis. Taking out Xykon ends the Blood Oath, and with it goes Julia's Contact Other Person spell. Roy's (non)survival is irrelevant to the problem, as it has no effect.

BTW, anyone else wondering if Julia meeting Bandana to arrange the pickup results in her taking up a career of airship wizard after graduation?

[Peelee]

BTW, anyone else wondering if Julia meeting Bandana to arrange the pickup results in her taking up a career of airship wizard after graduation?

I wasn't before, but now I am. I could totally see Julia enjoying the life of a sky pirate.

[Emanick]

Null hypothesis. Taking out Xykon ends the Blood Oath, and with it goes Julia's Contact Other Person spell. Roy's (non)survival is irrelevant to the problem, as it has no effect.

BTW, anyone else wondering if Julia meeting Bandana to arrange the pickup results in her taking up a career of airship wizard after graduation?

Alternately, the Order kills Xykon before Julia's project is due, rendering her research moot and making it impossible for her to graduate on time, so she swears a Blood Oath of Vengeance against Roy for tanking her GPA. Since he's her next of kin, that means she can once again use the spell to get in touch with him.

Sorry, I don't get it. Was I repeating something that somebody else already said?

[Mox]

Sure, but if some combination of Elan, Haley, and/or Belkar (which is not crazy - they probably have the highest Reflex save bonuses) survive, there could be a real problem. Maybe Haley will wind up having a wand of Sending, or maybe Elan will level up and take Sending as a new spell (do bards get that?), but a scenario where the survivor(s) of a fierce climactic battle are stranded with no access to Sending or similar magic is definitely plausible (even if, narratively speaking, it’s highly unlikely).

Which is not to say that Roy is making a poor decision. Protecting the Mechane’s crew from possible assaults from Team Evil is noble, and it’s worth doing. It’s just not exactly risk-free.

New (false) theory :
Everyone exept Belkar dies in the fight; Belkar tries to return on foot (since he doesn't know about Roy backup plan) and dies in a snowstorm. The Mechane comes back, everyone is resurected exept Belkar since they can't find his body

[Mariele]

Thanks for the morning laugh, Mox. Love it.

Kind of hoping the next update is a double. Seems like we're going to have a dramatic scene soon. Maybe a cutaway? I really want to check in on Team Evil or the paladins, but it seems like we're too close to confronting TE to cut in on them...

[Squire Doodad]

New (false) theory :
Everyone exept Belkar dies in the fight; Belkar tries to return on foot (since he doesn't know about Roy backup plan) and dies in a snowstorm. The Mechane comes back, everyone is resurected exept Belkar since they can't find his body

The darkest irony truly is Belkar only not being able to live because he went into a blizzard to fire a flare so everyone else could be saved.

[Lord Torath]

Assuming the OotS wins, but Roy, Durkon, Minra, and V die, and neither Haley nor Elan have the appropriate magic to contact Bandana, there will still be one cleric available who can cast Sending:



If the Order of the Stick wins, that means they've beaten Xykon and recruited Redcloak to the cause of sealing the rifts. Anything less than this really doesn't count as a "win". And Redcloak is definitely capable of casting Sending.

So there's really no real cause for concern that the survivors will be stranded at the pole, and then have to move in with the bugbears.

[ebarde]

Belkar is onky gonna die in the "where are they now?" Segment of the last strip when there will be gray panels of everyone's faces with a white text saying what happened to them.

"Belkar would later on perish in an unrelated tavern fight"

[bunsen_h]

New (false) theory :
Everyone exept Belkar dies in the fight; Belkar tries to return on foot (since he doesn't know about Roy backup plan) and dies in a snowstorm. The Mechane comes back, everyone is resurected exept Belkar since they can't find his body

Under those circumstances, I think they'd take the time and trouble to do a Locate Object. The only reason they couldn't do that for Roy's sword was the time crunch.

[Squire Doodad]

Under those circumstances, I think they'd take the time and trouble to do a Locate Object. The only reason they couldn't do that for Roy's sword was the time crunch.

They do Locate Object, the location is underneath hundreds of feet of snow during a storm that's still raging, while they have an active job to do in terms of sealing the rifts.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Sealing the rifts is done by the gods once they get that 9th-grade spell's worth of purple quiddity.

Also, I'm not sure Redcloak is familiar enough with Bandana to send to her.

[ebarde]

They don't die in a snow storm anymore, they all have protection from weather or just coats

[Rogar Demonblud]

Along with buckets of hit points and high level saves. The Order could probably walk out without serious issue as long as they have water to drink.

[Peelee]

They don't die in a snow storm anymore, they all have protection from weather or just coats

That protects from cold, not from other issues arising in snow storms. I agree with the overall sentiment, but coats and PFE spells are just a small reason.

[Emanick]

Assuming the OotS wins, but Roy, Durkon, Minra, and V die, and neither Haley nor Elan have the appropriate magic to contact Bandana, there will still be one cleric available who can cast Sending:



If the Order of the Stick wins, that means they've beaten Xykon and recruited Redcloak to the cause of sealing the rifts. Anything less than this really doesn't count as a "win". And Redcloak is definitely capable of casting Sending.

So there's really no real cause for concern that the survivors will be stranded at the pole, and then have to move in with the bugbears.

There are a lot of possible scenarios in which the Order defeats Team Evil but Redcloak dies, either as a result of a betrayal or because he gets killed in the crossfire, in an area-of-effect spell or simply out of desperate self-defense. Those scenarios are certainly suboptimal, but they're not necessarily a "loss" (I suppose you could argue that it's a loss for the planet, but in that situation, the Order could always try and find another goblinoid cleric to team up with and level him or her up to 17 - heck, that might be easier than convincing Redcloak to help anyway). In any case, in this hypothetical scenario, where Redcloak dies and the Order wins, but loses all of their spellcasters, the survivors still need to find a way out of the polar region.

Also, do we have any evidence that Minrah can cast Sending? It's a 4th level spell for clerics, and IIRC the highest-level spell she's cast on panel is 3rd. Given her fighter levels and the fact that she seems to be significantly weaker than the Order, I would be somewhat surprised if she's a level 7 cleric yet. That said, even if she isn't, it's certainly possible that she could hit level 7 by the end of the book.

[Rogar Demonblud]

At their level, at worst they can walk. Assuming there isn't a spellcaster left who could use Windwalk, or Overland Flight, or summon a few mounts, a bard who can diplomance the bugbears into helping, or...

They have a lot of options.

[Emanick]

At their level, at worst they can walk. Assuming there isn't a spellcaster left who could use Windwalk, or Overland Flight, or summon a few mounts, a bard who can diplomance the bugbears into helping, or...

They have a lot of options.

Having read Frostburn (at least the part that deals with arctic weather conditions), I'm actually not sure that a high-level party would be able to survive a (let's say) week-long trek across the pole with no magic and only cold-weather outfits to rely on. If Belkar is alive, he might be able to help - assuming he's put some skill points in Survival since Book 2, which actually seems quite likely to me - but I'm still not sure it would be enough.

Getting the bugbears to help them might be a better bet. Even a couple survivors of the Order's level would probably be formidable enough to get the bugbears to work with them, rather than just attacking them on sight. If nothing else, the Order has magic items to trade that the bugbears would very likely be interested in. And if the MitD is with them in this scenario, which seems very likely since I don't see a plausible way that he ends up dead (unless The Snarl kills him), then securing the tribe's assistance should be child's play.

It seems pretty obvious that none of this is going to happen, of course. But I'm enjoying thinking through the various possibilities, so whatever.

[bunsen_h]

They do Locate Object, the location is underneath hundreds of feet of snow during a storm that's still raging, while they have an active job to do in terms of sealing the rifts.

There still wouldn't be any reason to not go back for his body after all of the complications are dealt with. Unless something ate it and completely digested even the bones, or something like that. Or dropped the residue somewhere at the bottom of the ocean, or in some other way carried the residue a long way away, or messed up the remains to the point that the spell fails due to the impossibility of accurately visualizing it. I don't know what the options are for locating an object that have more power than Locate Object.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Use Limited Wish to just bring the remains to you.

[ebarde]

So, they would just ditch the body of a party member that is almost epic level and one of the most competent adventurers in their world just cause they can't think their way through snow?

[Rogar Demonblud]

As long as it's mundane snow, just summon a fire elemental to melt through the snow. Or an air elemental to blow the snow away. Or other things. Again, high level party, so pretty much drowning in options.

[ebarde]

None of them can do elementals, but really just cast a fire spell

[Lord Torath]

There are a lot of possible scenarios in which the Order defeats Team Evil but Redcloak dies, either as a result of a betrayal or because he gets killed in the crossfire, in an area-of-effect spell or simply out of desperate self-defense. Those scenarios are certainly suboptimal, but they're not necessarily a "loss" (I suppose you could argue that it's a loss for the planet, but in that situation, the Order could always try and find another goblinoid cleric to team up with and level him or her up to 17 - heck, that might be easier than convincing Redcloak to help anyway). In any case, in this hypothetical scenario, where Redcloak dies and the Order wins, but loses all of their spellcasters, the survivors still need to find a way out of the polar region.

If the Order of the Stick wins, that means they've beaten Xykon and recruited Redcloak to the cause of sealing the rifts. Anything less than this really doesn't count as a "win". And Redcloak is definitely capable of casting Sending.

If the order beats Team Evil but fails to recruit Redcloak, they haven't won.

And if Roy, Durokon, etc. dies while the order still wins, any survivors can describe Bandana clearly enough for Redcloak to Send to her. If this description and drawing work (and they obviously did) there's nothing to worry about.

[Jasdoif]

There are a lot of possible scenarios in which the Order defeats Team Evil but Redcloak dies, either as a result of a betrayal or because he gets killed in the crossfire, in an area-of-effect spell or simply out of desperate self-defense. Those scenarios are certainly suboptimal, but they're not necessarily a "loss" (I suppose you could argue that it's a loss for the planet, but in that situation, the Order could always try and find another goblinoid cleric to team up with and level him or her up to 17 - heck, that might be easier than convincing Redcloak to help anyway). In any case, in this hypothetical scenario, where Redcloak dies and the Order wins, but loses all of their spellcasters, the survivors still need to find a way out of the polar region.

If the order beats Team Evil but fails to recruit Redcloak, they haven't won.

What if Redcloak dies after as a side effect of sealing the rift? (Besides being an obvious Kraagor parallel)

[Squire Doodad]

What if Redcloak dies after as a side effect of sealing the rift? (Besides being an obvious Kraagor parallel)

That strikes me as being a bit much given where this story is going from a moral standpoint
Plus, they would still need purple Quiddity to seal the other rifts.

[Jasdoif]

Plus, they would still need purple Quiddity to seal the other rifts.

Unless they don't. It's rather ambiguous, as the wording could support a single 9th-level slot being sufficient for sealing all the rifts.

[Rogar Demonblud]

None of them can do elementals, but really just cast a fire spell

Summon Monster of I to IX can each bring around a suitably sized elemental (or multiple smaller ones), and those are core spells.

[jokem]

New (false) theory :
Everyone exept Belkar dies in the fight; Belkar tries to return on foot (since he doesn't know about Roy backup plan) and dies in a snowstorm. The Mechane comes back, everyone is resurected exept Belkar since they can't find his body

I see a dramatic alignment shift here...

Belkar is supposed to be Chaotic Evil, but over the course of the strip, he seems to be creeping toward Chaotic Neutral.